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Pseudolinguistic fun with interlingual similarities - UniLang

Pseudolinguistic fun with interlingual similarities

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Vlürch
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Pseudolinguistic fun with interlingual similarities

Postby Vlürch » 2014-07-02, 1:57

I know this is going to make me look like a total douchedalf, but whatever. This is supposed to be a humorous thread, and I'm not trying to offend anyone, so I'm apologising already in advance if this comes across as offensive due to cultural/linguistic reasons; the point of this thread is just a bit of fun, really.

So, a collective connection between Finnish, Japanese, Turkish, Hungarian, Mongolian and Korean, etc.

I'm not saying that the Ural-Altaic language hypothesis is true (even though I really don't see why it couldn't be... but that's another topic entirely), but rather that it'd be interesting and fun to collect all the similarities between the languages in one place, even ones that are only half-similarities and pretty much have to be coincidences, for no particular reason besides entertainment.

Basically, if that doesn't make sense (I'm kinda sleepy, so it might not...), what I'm trying to start here is a sort of a list of all the things that span across various languages, particularly the ones I mentioned earlier and others that fall within the often ridiculed Ural-Altaic family.

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about false friends, even though those are welcome as well; I mean stuff like how words that mean the same thing have a similarity in one or two languages that seems to extend to other ones as well even if either "extreme" doesn't necessarily have anything in common with the other, in a way bridging the gap. For example,

Disclaimer: I use Google Translate, so if any of the following is incorrect, please don't blame me.

Vesi in Finnish
Víz in Hungarian
Us in Mongolian
Su in Turkish
Sui/mizu in Japanese
Mul in Korean

All those mean water, and even though "vesi" and "mul" are as different as can be, each step in either order seems like logical steps from one to the other, with a kind of a leap between Japanese and Korean; there's probably some language that has a word for "water" that sits comfortably right between them, though.

Before anyone points out that I'm being an idiot... well, you don't have to bother. I'm not saying that that's an actual transition in one way or the other, and I'm not trying to "prove" anything; I'm just interested in things that could be transitions even if they aren't. Hell, you could point fingers at time travel as an explanation, it's totally irrelevant in the context of this thread. If you still don't get what I'm trying to start here, maybe another example would fix that:

Heart is:
Yürek in Turkish
Zürkhnii in Mongolian
Sydän in Finnish
Simjang in Korean
Shinzō in Japanese
Szív in Hungarian

So, yeah, this thread is supposed to be about connective pseudolinguistic asshattery. I hope that's okay. I just feel like there's always too much serious debate and ad hominal arguments about the whole Ural-Altaic thing/related theories/hypotheses/whatever, and not nearly enough lighthearted comparison disregarding people's personal opinions/beliefs on the subject.

EDIT: This thread is about any/all languages, just to be clear.
Last edited by Vlürch on 2014-07-03, 21:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pseudolinguistic evolution of Ural-Altaic time travel (?)

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-07-02, 2:15

Vlürch wrote:Sui/mizu in Japanese


Only the mizu reading is "valid" for this, as the sui reading comes from Chinese, which is not, as far as I'm aware, usually grouped in the Ural-Altaic superfamily.

Vlürch wrote:Shinzō in Japanese


This doesn't work for the same reason - it's a compound word, both elements of which come from Chinese. The native Japanese word for "heart" is kokoro, but that doesn't even superficically fit the other words you've got there. Also, this issue is going to pop up a lot with Japanese unless you learn to spot the difference between words of Chinese origin and native Japanese ones.
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Re: Pseudolinguistic evolution of Ural-Altaic time travel (?)

Postby Yasna » 2014-07-02, 2:20

Ciarán12 wrote:
Vlürch wrote:Shinzō in Japanese


This doesn't work for the same reason - it's a compound word, both elements of which come from Chinese. The native Japanese word for "heart" is kokoro, but that doesn't even superficically fit the other words you've got there. Also, this issue is going to pop up a lot with Japanese unless you learn to spot the difference between words of Chinese origin and native Japanese ones.

Same problem for the Korean shimjang. It's a Sino-Korean word.
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Re: Pseudolinguistic evolution of Ural-Altaic time travel (?)

Postby Vlürch » 2014-07-02, 10:49

Ciarán12 wrote:
Vlürch wrote:Sui/mizu in Japanese


Only the mizu reading is "valid" for this, as the sui reading comes from Chinese, which is not, as far as I'm aware, usually grouped in the Ural-Altaic superfamily.

Yeah, but like I said in the first post, the purpose is just similarities. Obviously, you have a point and I'd be thanking you like hell for pointing that out in pretty much any other context, but...

Well, I meant this thread to be a bit of an "if all languages stopped changing right now and stopped being used, and someone a thousand years from now would find them again, how would they think the languages developed?"-level of a surface connection between words and languages. :P You know, completely disregarding origins of words and finding connections between any languages even when there aren't any; I just leaned on the Ural-Altaic thing in particular because there isn't as much certainity as there is with Romance or Slavic languages and such, and because more of them are interesting to me personally. But I did (or at least thought I did...) say in the first post that any languages that can be linked (logically or illogically, correctly or incorrectly) could be just for the purpose of this thread.

Yasna wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:
Vlürch wrote:Shinzō in Japanese


This doesn't work for the same reason - it's a compound word, both elements of which come from Chinese. The native Japanese word for "heart" is kokoro, but that doesn't even superficically fit the other words you've got there. Also, this issue is going to pop up a lot with Japanese unless you learn to spot the difference between words of Chinese origin and native Japanese ones.

Same problem for the Korean shimjang. It's a Sino-Korean word.

I wouldn't consider it a problem because of what I already said, but thanks anyway; I always thought that Korean had no loanwords or anything (besides recent ones) and that everything with similarities to anything else were accepted by professional linguists as coincidences (because that's what I read somewhere and it made enough sense), but that was probably about the words that aren't loanwords... :oops:

I hope you don't think I'm stupid, even though it would make sense if my stupidity made people think I'm stupid. It's just that if I'm genuinely interested in something, such as learning various languages, I can't do it if I take the process of learning seriously. Of course, I'm not trying to learn anything by this thread (apart from whatever might come on the side, such as what you said), and don't expect anyone else to, either, but it could make it easier in the long run if a straight line can be drawn from point A to point X, A being one's native language and X being any other language that seems simply impossible to learn at the moment. So, between A and X, there's B, C, D, etc, each of which is a language that has one thing in common with one another in a chain and each one is more difficult to learn on its own; however, because of the linking, there can be a whole bunch of individual vocabulary-memorising tricks and grammar-connections that could be unfolded like a book in the mind whenever that's necessary.

I hope that made sense...

...but this thread, I meant it as a bit like how some people think Biblical descriptions of angels are 100% undeniable evidence of ancient alien visitations, except that this is with languages and it's a tongue-in-cheek thing instead of some serious search for validation. Something that could be seen as a conspiracy theory by some people, because they know that some secret branch of the Russian government is secretly sending mutated space dogs back in time to secretly mess with people as part of a super secret linguistic experimentation program... or something. :mrgreen:

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Re: Pseudolinguistic evolution of Ural-Altaic time travel (?)

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-07-02, 12:40

Vlürch wrote: You know, completely disregarding origins of words and finding connections between any languages even when there aren't any; I just leaned on the Ural-Altaic thing in particular because there isn't as much certainity as there is with Romance or Slavic languages and such, and because more of them are interesting to me personally.


There might not be as much certainty about the validity of the Ural-Altaic family or the etymologies of any words in it, but there is certainty about the fact that those words are loanwords from Chinese. It's like saying that "anime" is a valid representitive word for Japanese, even though it is obviously an abbreviation of "animation" - a loanword from English.

Vlürch wrote: But I did (or at least thought I did...) say in the first post that any languages that can be linked (logically or illogically, correctly or incorrectly) could be just for the purpose of this thread.


Okay, but shouldn't you at the very least stick to languages that are actually part of the Ural-Altaic theory?

Vlürch wrote: I always thought that Korean had no loanwords or anything (besides recent ones) and that everything with similarities to anything else were accepted by professional linguists as coincidences (because that's what I read somewhere and it made enough sense), but that was probably about the words that aren't loanwords... :oops:


Both Japanese and Korean are heavily influenced by Chinese in vocabulary.

Vlürch wrote:I hope you don't think I'm stupid, even though it would make sense if my stupidity made people think I'm stupid. It's just that if I'm genuinely interested in something, such as learning various languages, I can't do it if I take the process of learning seriously. Of course, I'm not trying to learn anything by this thread (apart from whatever might come on the side, such as what you said), and don't expect anyone else to, either, but it could make it easier in the long run if a straight line can be drawn from point A to point X, A being one's native language and X being any other language that seems simply impossible to learn at the moment. So, between A and X, there's B, C, D, etc, each of which is a language that has one thing in common with one another in a chain and each one is more difficult to learn on its own; however, because of the linking, there can be a whole bunch of individual vocabulary-memorising tricks and grammar-connections that could be unfolded like a book in the mind whenever that's necessary.


The problem is, any "correspondences" you find will only (maybe) help you remember individual words, they are not systematic because they are not true correspondences. If you're looking to do this just as a mnemonic device to help you learn foreign vocabulary, you should just think of words in your native language that sound similar to the target one and use that as a mnemonic, rather than trying to use fake etymology.
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Re: Pseudolinguistic evolution of Ural-Altaic time travel (?)

Postby Vlürch » 2014-07-02, 17:17

I feel like you don't understand the concept of "fun" if it's different from however you have fun... No, the reason isn't to remember things; I clearly stated that in the very paragraph you quoted. If you can't see why I think the idea is fun, then just pretend that there is no point, because fun is pointless if you think it's pointless. I don't, because in my opinion having fun is one of the few things that make life worth living. Just because my definition of fun is different from yours, that doesn't mean my definition of fun is some single anomaly in the world of fun; I know your view is widerspread, but still, I'm pretty sure that there are at least one or two other people on this forum who are entertained by stuff like this.

Ciarán12 wrote:Okay, but shouldn't you at the very least stick to languages that are actually part of the Ural-Altaic theory?

Yeah, and I think I kinda did, just as they are now. You know, with all the influences (even recent ones) from other languages. I feel like the "time travel" part of the thread title implies that I'm not trying to start a serious discussion about anything, and that I mentioned if someone with no knowledge whatsoever about any languages discovered the languages, such as someone a thousand years from now or from another planet or who grew up under a rock or whatever. And if that person somehow knew everything they'd need to know, just not how the languages evolved or anything like that.

On the other hand, there's no need to stick to those languages; every language has something in common with another language, even if it's only one word that sounds a little bit similar. I just named the thread after them because those are the ones that I personally am more interested in and didn't know what to name it. Something like "let's make interlingual chains of words" or something would be way more confusing and not nearly as humorous, and the point is humour, so that should be evident already in the thread title.

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Re: Pseudolinguistic evolution of Ural-Altaic time travel (?)

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-07-02, 18:55

You seem to be very defensive about this for no reason. Anyway, I don't really care enough to go on past replying this last time, but if you aren't taking the infulences of other languages on these language into account, then there is no reason to select words from Ural-Altaic languages alone, seeing as the influences can come from any language.
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Re: Pseudolinguistic evolution of Ural-Altaic time travel (?)

Postby Vlürch » 2014-07-02, 19:29

Ciarán12 wrote:You seem to be very defensive about this for no reason.

Ok. I didn't mean to seem defensive... I merely tried to explain the point of this thread to you so you wouldn't be left with a misunderstanding.

Ciarán12 wrote:Anyway, I don't really care enough to go on past replying this last time, but if you aren't taking the infulences of other languages on these language into account, then there is no reason to select words from Ural-Altaic languages alone, seeing as the influences can come from any language.

...yeah, don't bother replying if you don't even read the posts you're replying to. You seem to have missed large portions of them, such as me saying twice that it's not just Ural-Altaic languages I started this thread about. So far, it's only about them, and will likely stay that way if I'm the only one posting those types of lists of words (if I can even come across more words that have enough similarities), but if someone points out ones in any languages that aren't Ural-Altaic, then I'll just change the thread title to something more inclusive. Right now, though, I don't know why that would be necessary (yet) because those are the only ones.

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Re: Pseudolinguistic evolution of Ural-Altaic time travel (?)

Postby johnklepac » 2014-07-02, 20:50

Why the cloaca is everyone taking this so seriously? How many fucking times did the OP spell out that it was purely for fun?

ENJOY YOUR GODDAMN PSEUDOSCIENCE, YOU FUCKIN' NERDS!

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Re: Pseudolinguistic evolution of Ural-Altaic time travel (?)

Postby Massimiliano B » 2014-07-03, 15:11

What does "why the cloaca" means??
Non è tempo di lutti / né di follie. / Questo è tempo di Dio. / Che aspettiamo? / Quale segno? / Quale miracolo? /…. (Elena Bono, Morte di Adamo)

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Re: Pseudolinguistic evolution of Ural-Altaic time travel (?)

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-07-03, 15:32

Massimiliano B wrote:What does "why the cloaca" means??


From reading the Wikipedia artical on cloacae, they sound pretty nasty. This was a novel use of the structure "Why the fuck...." with "fuck" being replaced by a difference expletive (in this case it was particularly novel as the word is not an expletive, but would be if more people knew what it meant).
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Re: Pseudolinguistic evolution of Ural-Altaic time travel (?)

Postby Massimiliano B » 2014-07-03, 16:49

Thank you! I know what is a cloaca (in Italian the word is "cloaca", from Latin "cloaca"). I've written "means" because I thought the subject is singular, that is the whole sentence "why the cloaca".
Non è tempo di lutti / né di follie. / Questo è tempo di Dio. / Che aspettiamo? / Quale segno? / Quale miracolo? /…. (Elena Bono, Morte di Adamo)

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Re: Pseudolinguistic evolution of Ural-Altaic time travel (?)

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-07-03, 17:08

Massimiliano B wrote:I've written "means" because I thought the subject is singular, that is the whole sentence "why the cloaca".


Yes, but when you ask a yes/no question in English you use the auxiliary verb "to do", and when you do that the "do" is the finite verb (the one you conjugate) and the main verb is in the bare infinitive ("mean"). It's a common mistake though.
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Re: Pseudolinguistic evolution of Ural-Altaic time travel (?)

Postby Massimiliano B » 2014-07-03, 17:13

Oh yes, obviously!! I know exactly that rule and I've used it a lot of time... but today I feel very tired! I've had a cup of coffee just now.
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Re: Pseudolinguistic evolution of Ural-Altaic time travel (?)

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-07-03, 17:17

Shouldn't it be I know what a cloaca is?

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Re: Pseudolinguistic evolution of Ural-Altaic time travel (?)

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-07-03, 17:18

IpseDixit wrote:Shouldn't it be I know what a cloaca is?


Yes.
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Re: Pseudolinguistic evolution of Ural-Altaic time travel (?)

Postby Massimiliano B » 2014-07-03, 17:20

IpseDixit wrote:Shouldn't it be I know what a cloaca is?


Yes. Usually I make a lot of mistakes. Today I'm very tired too.




About the thread:

Finnish: nimi

Japanese: namae

Maybe nimi and namae are of Indo-European origin.
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Re: Pseudolinguistic evolution of Ural-Altaic time travel (?)

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-07-03, 18:48

Massimiliano B wrote:Oh yes, obviously!! I know exactly that rule and I've used it a lot of times... but today I feel very tired! I've had a cup of coffee just now. (Probably better: I just had a cup of coffee).

I'm not sure what you mean by "I know exactly that rule," but it sounds a bit odd here. Perhaps you meant "I know that exact rule"?

Ciarán12 wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:Shouldn't it be I know what a cloaca is?


Yes.

Also, I'd say it makes more sense to write "I wrote" instead of "I've written" there.

Massimiliano B wrote:Maybe nimi and namae are of Indo-European origin.

Nimi may be, but namae is just a coincidence.

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Re: Pseudolinguistic evolution of Ural-Altaic time travel (?)

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-07-03, 19:06

vijayjohn wrote:
Massimiliano B wrote:Maybe nimi and namae are of Indo-European origin.

Nimi may be, but namae is just a coincidence.


As Vlürch made abundantly clear, he doesn't care if it makes any sense or if it's even originally from a Ural-Altaic language, he essentially just wants a bunch of barely similar coincidences listed off, the only connection to Ural-Altaic being that he plans to only post words that happen to be in current use in one of those languages. So if you don't think that's fun, or if you think it's about as pointless as drawing a random box on a map of the world and pulling out words from dictionaries of languages found in that box that have at least one letter in common, then don't bother posting.
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Re: Pseudolinguistic evolution of Ural-Altaic time travel (?)

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-07-03, 19:08

Ciarán12 wrote:As Vlürch made abundantly clear, he doesn't care if it makes any sense or if it's even originally from a Ural-Altaic language, he essentially just wants a bunch of barely similar coincidences listed off, the only connection to Ural-Altaic being that he plans to only post words that happen to be in current use in one of those languages. So if you don't think that's fun, or if you think it's about as pointless as drawing a random box on a map of the world and pulling out words from dictionaries of languages found in that box that have at least one letter in common, then don't bother posting.

I don't really care. I was just responding to what Massimiliano said.


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