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Cognates - Page 4 - UniLang

Cognates

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linguoboy
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Re: Cognates

Postby linguoboy » 2015-01-27, 22:46

Kristjan wrote:
linguoboy wrote:I would not have assumed the Hungarian was borrowed from the German. I'm used to seeing impermissible initial clusters broken up with a prothetic vowel, as in Ibero- or Gallo-Romance (e.g. Strang > istrang).
That was the case in the earlier stages of the Old Hungarian periode (896-1526), but since the Renaissance (beginning in the middle of the 15th century in Hungary) Hungarian gives in to this clusters. Prés, trón, pláne, kvázi, strand, sztráda, platni, zrikál (irritate, tease, annoy).
Does this mean that szoba belongs to a stage which predates both of these? Or is this simply an exceptional development?
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Re: Cognates

Postby Kristjan » 2015-01-27, 22:54

linguoboy wrote:
Kristjan wrote:
linguoboy wrote:I would not have assumed the Hungarian was borrowed from the German. I'm used to seeing impermissible initial clusters broken up with a prothetic vowel, as in Ibero- or Gallo-Romance (e.g. Strang > istrang).
That was the case in the earlier stages of the Old Hungarian periode (896-1526), but since the Renaissance (beginning in the middle of the 15th century in Hungary) Hungarian gives in to this clusters. Prés, trón, pláne, kvázi, strand, sztráda, platni, zrikál (irritate, tease, annoy).
Does this mean that szoba belongs to a stage which predates both of these? Or is this simply an exceptional development?

Hard to say, could the German origin be somehow false? In Turkish it is soba meaning stove. :?: The problem is that I have no idea where the Turkish word comes from, or is it just simply Turkish?

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Re: Cognates

Postby linguoboy » 2015-01-27, 23:04

Kristjan wrote:Hard to say, could the German origin be somehow false? In Turkish it is soba meaning stove. :?: The problem is that I have no idea where the Turkish word comes from, or is it just simply Turkish?
According to this online etymological dictionary, the Turkish is a borrowing from the Hungarian. I'll see if I can't consult a print dictionary to confirm.
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Re: Cognates

Postby Kristjan » 2015-01-27, 23:11

linguoboy wrote:
Kristjan wrote:Hard to say, could the German origin be somehow false? In Turkish it is soba meaning stove. :?: The problem is that I have no idea where the Turkish word comes from, or is it just simply Turkish?
According to this online etymological dictionary, the Turkish is a borrowing from the Hungarian. I'll see if I can't consult a print dictionary to confirm.

Great. :D
I can't anwer your question about the development of szoba. Maybe it would help if I knew when it was first written down, but that doesn't give an answer...
The Finns dropped the sz or s in their word tupa, we kept the sz but lost the t.

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Re: Cognates

Postby linguoboy » 2015-01-27, 23:14

Kristjan wrote:The Finns dropped the sz or s in their word tupa, we kept the sz but lost the t.
Which is consistent with other borrowings of the period, e.g. strand > ranta
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Re: Cognates

Postby Kristjan » 2015-01-27, 23:31

linguoboy wrote:
Kristjan wrote:The Finns dropped the sz or s in their word tupa, we kept the sz but lost the t.
Which is consistent with other borrowings of the period, e.g. strand > ranta

I see, I wasn't familiar with it.

Well, I can asnwer my own question. Szoba was first written down around 1300. It is most posible that it didn't come via German or Neo-Latin due to phonetic rules. It might come from a Southern Slavic tongue (Serbo-Croatian, Slovene and Bulgarian are mentioned in the article), Romanian (soba), Albanian (sobë) or Ottoman-Turkish. The Hungarian form was first written down in Southern territories of the kingdom, therefore the Southern Slavic or Ottoman influence might be the most plausible, says the article.

Just an idea:
There's a pattern for words of Slavic origins to get rid of problems with clusters.
szabad > Slavic свободен (free)
szent > Proto-Slavic svętъ (holy)

It could be that szoba of German origin follows this pattern.
Last edited by Kristjan on 2015-01-28, 1:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cognates

Postby Levike » 2015-01-28, 0:19

The Romanian official dictionary says that "soba"
was either borrowed from the Turkish "soba" or from the Hungarian "szoba".
Hungarian (hu) Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára. _______German (de) Wo ein Wille ist, da ist auch ein Weg.
English (en) Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. __Spanish (es) No hay ceguera peor que no querer mirar.
Romanian (ro) Nu întinde arcul până nu este bine aşezată săgeata.

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Re: Cognates

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-01-28, 3:20

IIRC, this is where Romani (Kalderash, I think. Probably Lovari, too. It's hard to get my dialects of Romani straight sometimes :lol:) got soba 'room'.

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Re: Cognates

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-02-11, 0:03

These are two different cognate sets:

Malayalam (ml) മീൻ [mi:n] 'star, lightning'
Tamil (ta) மீன் [mi:n] 'star'
Kannada (kn) ಮೀನ್ [mi:n] 'star'

Malayalam (ml) മീൻ [mi:n] 'fish'
Tamil (ta) மீன் [mi:n] 'fish'
Kannada (kn) ಮೀನ್ [mi:n] 'fish'

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Re: Cognates

Postby Thon » 2015-02-11, 9:40

vijayjohn wrote:Ket (ket) синьсь [sīn] 'old'
Navajo (nv) sání 'old'


Reminds me of Latin senex.

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Re: Cognates

Postby Kenny » 2015-02-23, 12:21

linguoboy wrote:
Kristjan wrote:Hard to say, could the German origin be somehow false? In Turkish it is soba meaning stove. :?: The problem is that I have no idea where the Turkish word comes from, or is it just simply Turkish?
According to this online etymological dictionary, the Turkish is a borrowing from the Hungarian. I'll see if I can't consult a print dictionary to confirm.

Here's what my Hungarian Etymological Dictionary has to say on the matter:

szoba [1221* (?), 1300**] Loanword, cf. medival Latin stuba "bathroom, steamroom; room, chamber", Old High German stuba, stupa 'heatable room, bathroom', Middle High Geman stube 'same', French étuve 'bathroom***', Old Russian istъba 'residence; bathroom'. These words go back to a Latin or Germanic source, cf. Latin *extupa 'room for use as a steamroom' < Latin *extupare 'steam out' or Old High German stioban 'to spray <steam>' ~ Old English styman 'to steam'. The donor language of Hungarian szoba may either have been medieval Latin or German, for the omission of word-initial t cf. szobor****, zarándok*****

* first suspected occurrence
** first confirmed occurrence
***WTF, it's not bathroom, it's steamroom/sauna
****statue
*****pilgrim

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Re: Cognates

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-02-23, 12:54

Kenny wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Kristjan wrote:Hard to say, could the German origin be somehow false? In Turkish it is soba meaning stove. :?: The problem is that I have no idea where the Turkish word comes from, or is it just simply Turkish?
According to this online etymological dictionary, the Turkish is a borrowing from the Hungarian. I'll see if I can't consult a print dictionary to confirm.

Here's what my Hungarian Etymological Dictionary has to say on the matter:

szoba [1221* (?), 1300**] Loanword, cf. medival Latin stuba "bathroom, steamroom; room, chamber", Old High German stuba, stupa 'heatable room, bathroom', Middle High Geman stube 'same', French étuve 'bathroom***', Old Russian istъba 'residence; bathroom'. These words go back to a Latin or Germanic source, cf. Latin *extupa 'room for use as a steamroom' < Latin *extupare 'steam out' or Old High German stioban 'to spray <steam>' ~ Old English styman 'to steam'. The donor language of Hungarian szoba may either have been medieval Latin or German, for the omission of word-initial t cf. szobor****, zarándok*****

* first suspected occurrence
** first confirmed occurrence
***WTF, it's not bathroom, it's steamroom/sauna
****statue
*****pilgrim


Interesting. In Ladin we have the word stua which is indeed the heatable room, however in the case of Ladinian houses the heatable room is actually more of a living-room than a steamroom. But now that you make me think about it, it's very impressing how the living-room of traditional Ladinian houses resembles a sauna (being made entirely of wood). :shock:

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Re: Cognates

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-10, 16:32

 (en) stevedore
 (es) estibador

I'd forgotten about this pair until estibador popped up in the book I was reading. What I find particularly amusing is that the English word is actually a loan from Spanish, but it looks like it should be the other way around--particularly when it shows up in the company of other nautical terms like babor (< Dutch bakboord).
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