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TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic - Page 4 - UniLang

TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic

This forum is for the Total Annihilation Challenge. See the sticky thread for more information.

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Set
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Re: TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic

Postby Set » 2014-11-15, 9:18

I've personally had a lot of success with Anki, but it goes through phases, so at the moment I'm not using it at all. Hopefully I'll get the motivation to start it again. I think you need to find a way to use Anki that works for you, and of course it just doesnt work for some people.
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Re: TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic

Postby Luís » 2014-11-15, 13:15

vijayjohn wrote:
Luís wrote:Yeah, but you're missing out on the spaced repetition algorithms

You are talking specifically about Anki here, right? Because I never actually said anything about Anki since I'm not familiar with it and had never heard about it before joining UniLang. I only said why I (personally) don't find flashcards useful. The only differences I see between using flashcards and just covering words up are that (a) I only have two hands, so there's only so much I can cover up, and I could accidentally peek at one of the answers a lot more easily, and (b) I have to make flashcards if I want to use them, but there are already books out there that I can use.


I was talking about spaced repetition software (SRS) in general. Anki is one of the most popular ones, but there are many others. SuperMemo, for instance, has been around since the 80s, long before Anki. What I meant is that when you learn from a book or use regular flashcards you're missing out on these kinds of algorithms (i.e. seeing more of the words you tend to forget while not losing time with the vocab you already know and being asked to recall the words right before you're about to forget them)

vijayjohn wrote:That article you linked to suggests to me that basically Anki works like flashcards but also asks you about how difficult it was for you to remember individual items, and uses that information to train its algorithm. To me, that sounds like it could be even worse. Judgments of difficulty are subjective anyway, and it can be hard to express (or even decide) just how difficult you found something.


It's not that hard actually (or subjective). Here's how I use it:

- I remembered the word (button 1)
- I didn't remember the word (button 2)
- I remembered the word, but not immediately, i.e. I had to think about it for a while (button 3)

There's a fourth button (button 4), but I tend to never use it. It's for words that are supposed to be so incredibly easy you don't want to see them again anytime soon.
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Re: TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic

Postby Meera » 2014-11-15, 19:54

Luis, I never truely used Anki. But I agree! I did for a little bit but my computer blew and I lost my decks. But I think I will restart it. I personally love flashcards because it is perfect for all types of learners. It is visual, auditory and Kinesthetic. You can color code them and the flip ones are great for grammar practice. I carry my flashcards everywhere with me and it's great for remembering words. And I have heard such great things about anki. Even my language professors recommend it.
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Re: TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic

Postby voron » 2014-12-19, 22:29

I like this recent trend on Unilang to set short-term goals, so I'm going to try it as well.

Week Dec 22-Dec 28
 (ar) Disk 4 and 5 (out of 8) of Michel Thomas's Arabic (Egyptian dialect)
After Michel Thomas I may want to read a book teaching Egyptian Arabic.
 (tr) Read half of Steinbeck's "The Red Pony" (Al Midilli) in Turkish
 (tr) Re-read chapter 27 "Conditional sentences" of Routledge and put a summary here

Week Dec 29-Jan 4
 (ar) Disk 6 and 7 of Michael Thomas's Arabic
 (tr) Read another half of "The Red Pony"

Week Jan 5-Jan 11
 (ar) Disk 8 of Michel Thomas's Arabic
 (tr) Work through a film (I'll pick one out later)
 (tr) Re-read chapter 21 "Tense, Aspect and Modality" of Routledge
Last edited by voron on 2015-01-01, 23:15, edited 10 times in total.

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Re: TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic

Postby eskandar » 2014-12-20, 1:57

voron wrote:After Michel Thomas I may want to read a book teaching Egyptian Arabic.
The "Kallimni 'Arabi!" series is really good for this. "Kullu Tamam!" is also worth checking out. Bettawfi2!
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Re: TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic

Postby voron » 2014-12-20, 21:23

Thanks for the advice, Eskandar! I'll check the books out.

Edited my plans a bit. The festives are coming so I need to be a bit more realistic.

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Re: TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic

Postby voron » 2014-12-21, 23:45

A question: do Arabic dialects use verb forms and their masdars?

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Re: TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic

Postby eskandar » 2014-12-22, 1:52

Not sure I understand the question. Are you asking if colloquial Arabic dialects have the equivalent of, for example, dhaba - yadhhabu - al-dhahaab ? If so, then yes, although as you know the forms may be different than MSA and even different verbs will be used (eg. the equivalent of 'to go' in Egyptian Arabic comes from a different root, giving us raa7 - yiruu7 - al-mirwaa7. You can see more comparisons between EA and MSA at this site which is overall very useful for EA.
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Re: TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic

Postby PEMbl » 2014-12-22, 3:43

I really like how Turkish sounds now that I heard it from your song on the "What are you listening" post. Tell me, how was learning that language, difficulty-wise, for a Russian speaker? Also I'm always impressed with anyone trying to learn Arabic, I couldn't conceive having to learn to read this.
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Re: TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic

Postby voron » 2014-12-22, 12:18

eskandar wrote:Not sure I understand the question.

Sorry for not being clear. I'm asking this: in classical Arabic, departing from the base triliteral verb, e.g. خرج , you can produce up to 15 derived forms, which add a causative, reflexive, intensive, etc meaning to the verb (e.g. for خرج the forms would be form II: خرّج, form IV: أخرج etc). Are these forms used in colloquial Arabic? Are they productive? I looked up on arabic.desert-sky.net but its section about verb forms deals with MSA only.

My question about masdars was, there are regular patterns for producing masdars from forms II - XV, to what extent do they apply to colloquial Arabic?

PEMbl wrote:Tell me, how was learning that language, difficulty-wise, for a Russian speaker?

- Pronunciation is easy
except for the fact that Turkish doesn't mark the open "e" and closed "e" in spelling, but if you don't aim for perfect pronunciation, you can get by pronouncing them the same way. The situation is similar to the one in Italian: Italian doesn't mark the open "e" and closed "e" in spelling either, and just like in Turkish, different dialects have different pronunciations with regard to these sounds.

- Morphology is super easy
Producing all cases and conjugations from basic forms is almost 100% regular and can be learnt in a week

- Vocabulary is somewhat hard
You have almost no Latinate roots. Words like civilization, administration, president, history, which are common throughout most European languages, including Russian, - they all have their own analogues in Turkish, either Turkic, or more likely Arabic, if they are related to science, law or politics. For example, the Turkish translations for the above words are medeniyet, yönetim, cumhurbaşkanı, tarih.

- Syntax is hardcore and requires a lot of effort
First, you have to get used from the start that sentence structure is somewhat reversed to what we are used to in IE languages. For example, the translation of "I know that you love me" is:
Beni sevdiğini biliyorum.
Me your-loving I-know.

Second, there are hundreds of irregularities and things-to-be-memorized in the realm of syntax. As you can see from the example above, there is no word for "that" in Turkish. Instead, you construct your relative clause using one of several gerund types. (To be precise there is a "that" in Turkish which is "ki", but it comes from Persian and is used restrictively). With most verbs, you use the -DİK- gerund type:
Beni sevDİĞini biliyorum
(DİK changes to DİĞ due to an assimilation rule),
but with some verbs, you would use the -MA- gerund type:
Futbol oynaMAlarını izliyorum.
I am watching them playing football. (football them-playing I-watch)

Which verbs require the -MA- gerund type has to be memorized.
Last edited by voron on 2014-12-22, 14:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic

Postby eskandar » 2014-12-22, 12:50

voron wrote:I'm asking this: in classical Arabic, departing from the base triliteral verb, e.g. خرج , you can produce up to 15 derived forms, which add a causative, reflexive, intensive, etc meaning to the verb (e.g. for خرج the forms would be form II: خرّج, form IV: أخرج etc). Are these forms used in colloquial Arabic? Are they productive? I looked up on arabic.desert-sky.net but its section about verb forms deals with MSA only.

My question about masdars was, there are regular patterns for producing masdars from forms II - XV, to what extent do they apply to colloquial Arabic?
Oh I see. Sorry, I haven't studied any colloquial dialect systematically enough to answer this question very well. It seems to me that most (though perhaps not all) of the MSA forms are used productively in colloquial dialects, though the vowels are different, sometimes regularly and sometimes irregularly so. You can see a bit about Egyptian Arabic's verb forms here.
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Re: TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic

Postby voron » 2014-12-22, 22:00

Thanks Eskandar!

I just discovered that Michel Thomas has the Advanced Arabic course, and the Vocabulary Builder course. They will definitely end up in my to-do list. My eyes get tired from staring at the computer screen at work, so having a walk in the evening while listening to an Arabic course is a treat.

I'm thinking about giving myself another treat and go to Egypt somewhere in March for a long weekend. There are cheap flights from Istanbul to Hurghada and Sharm-el-Sheikh so it's very affordable.

Edit: I just checked the prices on Pegasus Airlines and they have a return ticket to Hurghada in March for just 113€, and the hotels start from 11€ per day! I'm tempted to book the travel right away.

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Re: TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic

Postby eskandar » 2014-12-23, 12:42

voron wrote:Thanks Eskandar!

I just discovered that Michel Thomas has the Advanced Arabic course, and the Vocabulary Builder course. They will definitely end up in my to-do list. My eyes get tired from staring at the computer screen at work, so having a walk in the evening while listening to an Arabic course is a treat.
العفو علی ايه؟ :) I listened to some of the MT Arabic lessons several years back and thought it was pretty good. I like to do the same thing with MT and Pimsleur (in addition to listening to them during my work commute if it's not too noisy on the train).
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Re: TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic

Postby voron » 2014-12-25, 8:04

العفو علی ايه؟

What does this mean? (using my newly-acquired Egyptian skills) أنا مش عارف :)

My plan of going to Egypt for a few days is almost certain now. I want to finish all 3 courses of Michel Thomas, then probably polish it a bit with listening to a few Egyptian songs and translating them, and watching a couple of Egyptian films (that should take 2 months or so in total), and then off we go!

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Re: TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-12-25, 8:11

voron wrote:
العفو علی ايه؟

What does this mean? (using my newly-acquired Egyptian skills) أنا مش عارف :)

"It was nothing."

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Re: TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic

Postby voron » 2014-12-25, 11:15

Eskandar put a question mark after it though so he intended to ask me something...

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Re: TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic

Postby eskandar » 2014-12-25, 13:47

As Vijay explained it means "it was nothing" in Egyptian Arabic, but literally it means something more like "for what should I say 'you're welcome'?", the implication being that it was a small thing that didn't require a thank you in the first place.

العفو - forgiveness, pardon, welcome (cf. عفواً)
علی - same as in MSA
ايه - what (equivalent to MSA ما / ماذا )
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Re: TAC 2014 - voron - Turkish, Arabic

Postby voron » 2014-12-28, 20:55

I'm closing this thread and starting a new one for 2015!


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