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2015 TAC Koko — Italiano (• Čeština?) - Page 3 - UniLang

2015 TAC Koko — Italiano (• Čeština?)

This forum is for the Total Annihilation Challenge. See the sticky thread for more information.

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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-12-14, 0:35

Itikar wrote:Since he named Dante I chose the only author of literary value I know whom he might be able to read with some effort.


But he never said he wanted to read Italian literature. He just said Dante's Inferno is the only work in Italian he managed* to find.

Btw, have you ever read Zerocalcare and Gipi? I've never read them but they seem quite interesting. I don't know what kind of Italian they use, though.
Last edited by IpseDixit on 2014-12-14, 1:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby Itikar » 2014-12-14, 0:44

I've never heard of Gipi but I had heard of zerocalcare before. I have never read his works but he has got a blog with free comics that can be reached here: http://www.zerocalcare.it/ It seems much harder than any of those I have listed. :/
What are your impressions?
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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby Koko » 2014-12-14, 0:45

What is the point of a literate learning a language such as Italian if not to read its famous works ;) ? The Italian on the back pages of my copy was the deal-breaker. I could have gotten the whole Comedia without Italian for about the same price. Actually, that was a difficult choice…


Even then I knew how different the Italian was from MSI. I had noticed "li" used where "gli" should be; in followed by su (not really sure what that's supposed to do— onto maybe?); de la not della; uses of the diaeresis on "i"s before other vowels; and many words that I immediately assume to be archaic and outdated (esta for example, as well as el(lo) and il for masculine pronouns and quivi). I'm rather happy with myself to have found these without a good knowledge of even the modern language.
Last edited by Koko on 2014-12-14, 0:53, edited 1 time in total.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-12-14, 0:49

Koko wrote:What is the point of a literate learning a language such as Italian if not to read its famous works ;) ? The italian on the back pages of my copy was the deal-breaker. I could have gotten the whole Commedia without Italian for about the same price. Actually, that was a difficult choice…


Of course you're right but I simply think you'd better start from something easier.

Itikar wrote:What are your impressions?


It's full of Romanesqe terms :\

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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby Koko » 2014-12-14, 0:56

This is kind of making making me wanderlust for the italian of Dante Alighieri :roll: . Do we know much of it?
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby Itikar » 2014-12-14, 1:00

Koko wrote:What is the point of a literate learning a language such as Italian if not to read its famous works ;) ?
Bravo! Hai capito perfettamente come si ragiona. :y:

By the way I have found some stuff on Gipi: http://www.bloggokin.it/2013/02/13/una- ... pacinotti/
The art is amazing but the text seems to me a bit too fragmentary.

As comic book art stands, however, being half Lucchese, I cannot refrain from mentioning Simone Bianchi. He now works for Marvel Comics but he did some Italian comics too before working for the Americans. Of his works I have at home Ego sum whose language is balanced and accessible.
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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-12-14, 1:04

Koko wrote:This is kind of making making me wanderlust for the italian of Dante Alighieri :roll: . Do we know much of it?


http://www.dantesca.it/

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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby Itikar » 2014-12-14, 1:14

Koko wrote:This is kind of making making me wanderlust for the italian of Dante Alighieri :roll: . Do we know much of it?
It is basically the same language as ours, although in the centuries some words and some constructions have changed. So if you will learn Italian really well you will be able to read him. Old Italian is not like Old English or Old French which need to be translated into the modern languages. For instance, if you go at the end of your Inferno you will find the following verse "E uscimmo a riveder le stelle". As many others in the poem this sentence is perfectly idiomatical in contemporary Italian. :)

If you want a comparison with English, Dante sounds to a modern Italian almost like Shakespeare to an English speaker. Or possibly even closer considering that Shakespeare often employed thou... So well, Dante to a modern Italian speaker sounds like Shakespeare to a modern English speaker who speaks like... the Almighty Thor. :mrgreen:

The real issue with Dante is his style which is often intentionally cryptic and rich in figures of speech. On top of that the level of the language becomes progressively more refined and therefore hard. Inferno is written in a low style and is the most accessible of the three parts, Purgatorio in a middle style and Paradiso in a high one and therefore is pretty hard.

I hope these remarks are interesting and not boring.
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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby Koko » 2014-12-14, 1:18

Mi hai reso moltissimo felice, Ipse!!

Grazie Itikar :D ! Li leggerò più tardi. Ed anche grazie per questo chiarimento. Voglio stesso studiarlo… m'interessano le differenze :P .
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby Itikar » 2014-12-14, 1:43

Sorry I have seen your edit now.
Koko wrote:Even then I knew how different the Italian was from MSI.
As I said it is pretty close, but there are some minor differences. You will find all of them in good Italian grammars.
I had noticed "li" used where "gli" should be;
To be honest in my speech I use often "li" instead of "gli" as an article. In Old Italian articles had the same forms of the clitic pronouns. Instead of il/lo and i/gli there were just lo and li.
So: lo cane - li cani
Later appeared il and it was used along with lo in free alternance until the late nineteenth century.
in followed by su (not really sure what that's supposed to do— onto maybe?)
You should post the sentence. :)
In modern Italian in su (often written also insú) means 'upwards'.
Guarda all'insú = he looks upwards.
de la not della
This was merely a matter of orthography. At the time of Dante de was commonly used along with di as an independent preposition. Nowadays however de is only used with definite articles, and therefore it is written in a single word. You might still find de when someone mentions the title of a book. Look at this example:
Italo Calvino è stato l'autore de "Le cosmicomiche".

In this case you would still read delle anyway since de featured (and features) gemination.
uses of the diaeresis on "i"s before other vowels
This was a poet's trick to respect the strict rules of metric. More about this here, with an example taken directly from Dante's Inferno: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieresi

In short, however, the dieresis means that the i is a vowel and not a consonant, i.e. [j].
and many words that I immediately assume to be archaic and outdated (esta for example, as well as el(lo) and il for masculine pronouns and quivi).
Not as much as you think. :)
-Esta is archaic, but it has given the modern colloquial form sta which is pretty common. It has even been included in the expressions stasera, stanotte, stamani and stamattina.
-Ello is effectively archaic but ella is still used in written, often formal, Italian. El and its plural elli were however used in literature until at least the first half of the past century.
-Quivi is considered archaic by some but personally I use it in very formal contexts.
I'm rather happy with myself to have found these without a good knowledge of even the modern language.
You have talent.
Keep on the good work and one day you'll enjoy Italian literature as it deserves. :)
Fletto i muscoli e sono nel vuoto!
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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby dEhiN » 2014-12-14, 5:32

Koko wrote:Perhaps. But how do I know which variation would best suit Italian?

This month will definitely be devoted to thinking the Italian way.

Literal-translating is definitely a part of the learning process. I do think you can speed up the transition from that to direct-thinking a little bit, by consciously forcing your mind to drop the translation.

Ex: when I first learned la mela, it was through Duolingo and so naturally I learned it as the Italian translation of the English (or rather the English translation being the apple). So in my mind you now have mela -> apple -> real-world object. And generally given time and exposure to the word, my mind will start to think mela -> real-world object. But I find that I can "tell" my mind to drop apple every time it hears/thinks of mela, and that speeds up the process. (Of course this is more difficult for abstract words and concepts.)

Also, in regard to the paraphrasing and knowing what works in Italian, you could try reverse translating. So when you read/hear basic sentences in Italian, literal-translate it into English. That will give you an idea of how basic phrasing works in Italian compared to English. And then when you have a sentence in English you need to translate, you can paraphrase it according to what you already know works, and translate. Chances are you will be closer to the correct translation. Though of course, as above, this is easier to do with basic sentences.

This partially works I think because for basic sentences, the Romance languages (afaik) don't differ that much from English. Or rather, a literal translation of a basic sentence in a Romance language has a good chance of working in English, even if the phrasing sounds a bit old-fashioned or constrained.
Je veux parler toutes les langues dans le monde!

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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby Koko » 2014-12-14, 6:01

I have been thinking that to translate frasi literally from italiano would be una buona idea. But when I should try it doesn't come to mind. Things often are hidden when I most need them, stupid brain of mine.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby dEhiN » 2014-12-14, 6:09

Koko wrote:I have been thinking that to translate frasi literally from italiano would be una buona idea. But when I should try it doesn't come to mind. Things often are hidden when I most need them, stupid brain of mine.

Hey look, I'm picking up the odd Italian word or two from your interspersing Italian with English! :D Keep it up; this way you can be my Italian source. :lol:
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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby Koko » 2014-12-14, 6:30

Prego! Di niente. I will felicemente be your risorse.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby dEhiN » 2014-12-14, 6:33

Koko wrote:Prego! Di niente. I will felicemente be your risorse.

Is there a difference between prego and di niente in meaning or connotation? Because I know de rien and de nada are the equivalents of di niente in French, Spanish, and Portuguese. But I don't know if there's a cognate equivalent for prego.
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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby Koko » 2014-12-14, 6:39

"Prego" translates better as "you're welcome" in inglese. I don't know if there is an equivalent in the other Romance languages.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby dEhiN » 2014-12-14, 6:46

Well in French, Spanish, and Portuguese, I think the most common way to say "you're welcome" is de rien / de nada (both Spanish and Portuguese use de nada but pronounce it differently). Well, it may not be the most common, but it's certainly what you first learn for "you're welcome".

There are other ways to say it, but they translate more into "it was nothing" or "there wasn't anything".
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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-12-14, 6:49

dEhiN wrote:Well in French, Spanish, and Portuguese, I think the most common way to say "you're welcome" is de rien / de nada (both Spanish and Portuguese use de nada but pronounce it differently). Well, it may not be the most common, but it's certainly what you first learn for "you're welcome".

I think it may indeed be the most common. :D But "de rien" in French is informal (although I don't think it is in Portuguese, and I know it's not in Spanish :lol:).

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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby eskandar » 2014-12-14, 6:58

The French formal phrase for "you're welcome" (je vous en prie) is cognate to the Italian prego. Ultimately both French prier (>prie) and Italian pregare (>prego) are derived from Latin precari. (English 'pray' also comes from the French).
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Re: 2015 TAC Koko — Italiano • Български • Čeština

Postby dEhiN » 2014-12-14, 7:00

De rien in French is informal?? What's the formal then?

And afaik de nada in Portuguese can be used formally as well.
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