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TAC 2015 - dEhiN (français, português, español, தமிழ்) - Page 4 - UniLang

TAC 2015 - dEhiN (français, português, español, தமிழ்)

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Re: TAC 2015 - dEhiN (français, português, español, தமிழ்)

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-02-05, 7:26

I meant to suggest that the French adverbs you listed behave similarly to their English equivalents in some ways, and that could potentially be useful for English-speakers learning French. I didn't mean to suggest a one-to-one comparison, but for example, "apparently" and "tomorrow" can go at the beginning or at the end of the sentence in English as well:

Apparently, he lives/doesn't live in Montana.
He lives/doesn't live in Montana, apparently.
I'll go to the store tomorrow.
Tomorrow, I'll go to the store.


but can't go after a conjugated verb + negator (or at least sounds odd there), just as it can't in French:

??He doesn't live apparently in Montana.
?I won't go tomorrow to the store.


And as in French, it can't come between a conjugated verb and a negator, either:

??He does apparently not live in Montana.
??I will tomorrow not go to the store.


By contrast, "probably" and "certainly" can go before the negator, like probablement and certainement in French have to (and yes, of course there's the difference that in English, this is only a possibility, whereas in French, there is no alternative). Also, "completely" cannot come at the beginning or the end of the sentence, just as complètement can't in French.

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Re: TAC 2015 - dEhiN (français, português, español, தமிழ்)

Postby dEhiN » 2015-02-11, 4:29

What do you mean by negator or negative adverb (both Vijay and Dormouse)? In English I think of doesn't, not, can't, etc., but never a separated does not or cannot/can not. In French I think of the same - ne...pas, pas, ne...jamais, etc., but never in between.

Examples:
 (en) He probably can't read well.
(As opposed to *he can't probably read well [even though this might work in some forms of spoken colloquial English] or *he can probably not read well or *he can't read probably well)

 (fr) Probablement, il ne peut pas lire bien.
(Actually I'm not sure. Dormouse you wrote that probablement can go before the negative adverb, but the only structure that sounds right to me (based on what I've seen/read/heard so far) is what I wrote above)
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Re: TAC 2015 - dEhiN (français, português, español, தமிழ்)

Postby dEhiN » 2015-02-11, 4:56

Update time!

My goal (for the week of Feb 2/15 to Feb 8/15):

Thamizh Paadanool
    Introduction:
  • Section 4 - Time, Days of the Week, Colors (pp. 10 - 11)

All I did last week was go through the part about how to say the time. And so far I haven't done anything this week. To be honest I think I have a block when it comes to section 4 of the Introduction. I'm not sure why - I think it's hard for me to just read through a list of vocabulary. I need to see/hear it in context. The Time part had examples which I both wrote out and said out loud.

And when I get a block I can sometimes tend to just avoid! Though in fairness I've also been doing a lot to improve my Japanese. This past weekend I hung out the same Japanese friends and practiced quite a bit more. I got to listen to them speak a lot in Japanese, ask various questions, utilize the few words I know, and in general be surrounded in some small part by Japanese culture.

I've now started seriously desiring to focus on Japanese. In fact I've even begun to think about planning to go to Japan to teach English. I'm not sure if I will actually do this, and if so, when. But, even though I have a tendency to change my mind quickly, I think I do want to keep going with Japanese.

I'm not sure what to do going forward. I'm debating between

1) Adding Japanese to my TAC. If I do this, in light of some advice on another thread, I will stop actively or passively learning any other language except for French, Spanish, Portuguese, Tamil, and Japanese. I'm sure I'll still dabble from time to time in other languages. After all I'm a language nerd :D. But I finally see the wisdom in concentrating on a few languages. I don't know how long I will only learn these 5 - perhaps for 6 months at least and then reevaluate things. In terms of my TAC I will use imabi.net for Japanese. And for the sake of continuing in Tamil, I will skip section 4 of the Introduction.

2) Drop the languages I'm currently doing and only do Japanese. I will use imabi.net and try to aggressively go through the lessons while using my new Japanese friends to practice as much as I can. If I go this route, even though for my TAC I will focus solely on Japanese, in reality I will still be semi-actively doing Portuguese and probably French and Spanish. This is because I have Meetup commitments. In terms of the advice from the other thread, I might still stop learning other languages and only dabble in them from time to time.

I think I'll give myself the rest of this week to decide. I started an online linguistics course and I'm partway through unit 1 while the active unit is now unti 3! So this gives me time to catch up.

If you've read this far, thanks! I know I can be long-winded quite often. (Though that is partly because I process and think as I speak/write). But if you have any thoughts/suggestions on which of the two choices I should do, I'm all ears.

Thanks / Merci / Gracias / Obrigado / நன்றி (/ ありがとう)
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Re: TAC 2015 - dEhiN (français, português, español, தமிழ்)

Postby Dormouse559 » 2015-02-11, 6:33

dEhiN wrote:What do you mean by negator or negative adverb (both Vijay and Dormouse)? In English I think of doesn't, not, can't, etc., but never a separated does not or cannot/can not. In French I think of the same - ne...pas, pas, ne...jamais, etc., but never in between.
By "negative adverb" I mean "pas" "jamais" "personne", etc. "Ne" is a funny little thing; the negative meaning has shifted to the adverbs, and it basically sticks around as a vestigial structure in formal French.

dEhiN wrote: (fr) Probablement, il ne peut pas lire bien.
(Actually I'm not sure. Dormouse you wrote that probablement can go before the negative adverb, but the only structure that sounds right to me (based on what I've seen/read/heard so far) is what I wrote above)
I've been researching more and realized I was wrong on some counts. Adverbs that prototypically go after the verb (before or after the negative adverb) can go at the beginning or end of the sentence for emphasis ("complètement" turns out to be a bad example, being one that doesn't sound right separate from the verb). That affects what I said about adverbs that go at the beginning or end of a sentence. Some adverbs I said fit in that group, like "apparemment" actually fit better in the second group; for instance, you can say, "Il ne vit apparemment pas au Texas".

Finally, there's this complication I don't fully understand. If an adverb that would normally follow the verb/negative adverb is "long", it can go after the past participle, if there is one. But every resource I check literally just says "long", no syllable counts or anything. The cutoff appears to be three syllables, but it's trivially easy to find counterexamples with longer adverbs, like "silencieusement".

All that said, "probablement" can go before the negative adverb. Another way of phrasing what you wrote ("bien" follows the conjugated verb and negative adverb by the way) is this:
Il ne peut probablement pas bien lire.
Last edited by Dormouse559 on 2015-02-11, 7:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TAC 2015 - dEhiN (français, português, español, தமிழ்)

Postby Meera » 2015-02-11, 7:05

dEhiN wrote:
And when I get a block I can sometimes tend to just avoid! Though in fairness I've also been doing a lot to improve my Japanese. This past weekend I hung out the same Japanese friends and practiced quite a bit more. I got to listen to them speak a lot in Japanese, ask various questions, utilize the few words I know, and in general be surrounded in some small part by Japanese culture.

I've now started seriously desiring to focus on Japanese. In fact I've even begun to think about planning to go to Japan to teach English. I'm not sure if I will actually do this, and if so, when. But, even though I have a tendency to change my mind quickly, I think I do want to keep going with Japanese.

I'm not sure what to do going forward. I'm debating between

1) Adding Japanese to my TAC. If I do this, in light of some advice on another thread, I will stop actively or passively learning any other language except for French, Spanish, Portuguese, Tamil, and Japanese. I'm sure I'll still dabble from time to time in other languages. After all I'm a language nerd :D. But I finally see the wisdom in concentrating on a few languages. I don't know how long I will only learn these 5 - perhaps for 6 months at least and then reevaluate things. In terms of my TAC I will use imabi.net for Japanese. And for the sake of continuing in Tamil, I will skip section 4 of the Introduction.

2) Drop the languages I'm currently doing and only do Japanese. I will use imabi.net and try to aggressively go through the lessons while using my new Japanese friends to practice as much as I can. If I go this route, even though for my TAC I will focus solely on Japanese, in reality I will still be semi-actively doing Portuguese and probably French and Spanish. This is because I have Meetup commitments. In terms of the advice from the other thread, I might still stop learning other languages and only dabble in them from time to time.

I think I'll give myself the rest of this week to decide. I started an online linguistics course and I'm partway through unit 1 while the active unit is now unti 3! So this gives me time to catch up.

If you've read this far, thanks! I know I can be long-winded quite often. (Though that is partly because I process and think as I speak/write). But if you have any thoughts/suggestions on which of the two choices I should do, I'm all ears.

Thanks / Merci / Gracias / Obrigado / நன்றி (/ ありがとう)


It might be a great opprunity to leanr Japanese if you have Japanese friends to talk with because they could be a huge help in learning it. I'm not sure about Toronto but here it is really hard to find native Japanese speakers. They might be easy to find on the internet but in real life it is really hard. If you are interested in teaching English abroad, Japan has a really great program for that too. :mrgreen:

I don't think you have to drop all of your TAC languages, maybe you can keep two that you really like or the one you are the furthest in along with Japanese?
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Re: TAC 2015 - dEhiN (français, português, español, தமிழ்)

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-02-11, 8:22

Dormouse559 wrote:
dEhiN wrote:What do you mean by negator or negative adverb (both Vijay and Dormouse)? In English I think of doesn't, not, can't, etc., but never a separated does not or cannot/can not. In French I think of the same - ne...pas, pas, ne...jamais, etc., but never in between.
By "negative adverb" I mean "pas" "jamais" "personne", etc. "Ne" is a funny little thing; the negative meaning has shifted to the adverbs, and it basically sticks around as a vestigial structure in formal French.

And by "negator" I meant not (as well as -n't), never, etc. or ne...pas, ne...jamais, etc.

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Re: TAC 2015 - dEhiN (français, português, español, தமிழ்)

Postby dEhiN » 2015-02-12, 6:52

Dormouse559 wrote:Finally, there's this complication I don't fully understand. If an adverb that would normally follow the verb/negative adverb is "long", it can go after the past participle, if there is one. But every resource I check literally just says "long", no syllable counts or anything. The cutoff appears to be three syllables, but it's trivially easy to find counterexamples with longer adverbs, like "silencieusement".

Alors, par exemple est-ce que c'est correct "il a dit silencieusement / il n'a pas dit silencieusement"?
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Re: TAC 2015 - dEhiN (français, português, español, தமிழ்)

Postby dEhiN » 2015-02-12, 7:08

Meera wrote:It might be a great opprunity to leanr Japanese if you have Japanese friends to talk with because they could be a huge help in learning it. I'm not sure about Toronto but here it is really hard to find native Japanese speakers. They might be easy to find on the internet but in real life it is really hard.

Yeah it's definitely a good opportunity. And in Toronto it's quite easy to find native speakers from Japan who are here on a working holiday visa. (I'm not sure why but I have found many from countries that both Canada and the US have a working holiday visa agreement with, that said it was easier for them to get the visa to come here than the States.) In the past I've used native speakers but usually one at a time. Like I would make friends with one, and naturally we couldn't meet up all the time. But I could do what I've done in the past for French - actively connect with the working-holiday-visa Japanese community; that way I'd meet many native speakers.

Meera wrote:If you are interested in teaching English abroad, Japan has a really great program for that too. :mrgreen:

Yeah I know there's the JET program. But I don't qualify for that, unfortunately. Because I never finished my Bachelor's degree, countries that require a copy of a degree to get the proper visa for an English teacher are not accessible to me. Unless I go the route of going over on a tourist visa and then try to find private students. It kinda sucks because having a TEFL/CELTA certification isn't enough anymore.

Meera wrote:I don't think you have to drop all of your TAC languages, maybe you can keep two that you really like or the one you are the furthest in along with Japanese?

That's not a bad idea. The one I'm furthest along in is French. And between Spanish and Portuguese, I'm not sure which I would drop if I had to drop one. I think the first to go would be Tamil; to be honest part of the reason I still hold onto the idea of learning Tamil is guilt. It's guilt over being a Sri Lankan Tamil and not being able to speak my "mother tongue". That guilt is also partially what drove me to start learning Tamil in the first place and to never fully drop it over the past 15 years since I started, despite never having progressed beyond a few words and phrases. I feel like I owe it to my heritage to learn the language. (Though on a separate topic, that guilt could be a reason why I haven't progressed far in Tamil. With a language like French, which I'm learning purely out of interest, there's motivation to keep at it - to find language partners, to read and study, to practice when I can.)
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Re: TAC 2015 - dEhiN (français, português, español, தமிழ்)

Postby Dormouse559 » 2015-02-12, 15:59

dEhiN wrote:Alors, par exemple est-ce que c'est correct "il a dit silencieusement / il n'a pas dit silencieusement"?
Oui, et "il a silencieusement dit / il n'a pas silencieusement dit" marche aussi.
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Re: TAC 2015 - dEhiN (français, português, español, தமிழ்)

Postby Meera » 2015-02-13, 0:08

Hey David, i think French/Japanese might be a good combo to focus on. They are drastically different and both seem like they would be really useful for you. I think you can teach english in Japan outside of the JET program but I'm not sure. Theres a college here that has two years Japanese here and then they sned all the students to Japan at their statelite campus in Japan and many of them end up teaching English in Japan. There was someone in my Japanese class that said a lot of Japanese companies need English speakers but I don't know if they are exgratting or not.

i understand what you mean about Tamil, honestly I think if I was born here I would never have studied Pashto because I'm really not interesred in it :P
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Re: TAC 2015 - dEhiN (français, português, español, தமிழ்)

Postby dEhiN » 2015-02-14, 19:51

Dormouse559 wrote:
dEhiN wrote:Alors, par exemple est-ce que c'est correct "il a dit silencieusement / il n'a pas dit silencieusement"?
Oui, et "il a silencieusement dit / il n'a pas silencieusement dit" marche aussi.

Merci une autre fois!
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Re: TAC 2015 - dEhiN (français, português, español, தமிழ்)

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-02-14, 19:58

dEhiN wrote:
Dormouse559 wrote:
dEhiN wrote:Alors, par exemple est-ce que c'est correct "il a dit silencieusement / il n'a pas dit silencieusement"?
Oui, et "il a silencieusement dit / il n'a pas silencieusement dit" marche aussi.

Merci encore (une autre fois)!

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Re: TAC 2015 - dEhiN (français, português, español, தமிழ்)

Postby dEhiN » 2015-02-14, 20:00

Meera wrote:Hey David, i think French/Japanese might be a good combo to focus on. They are drastically different and both seem like they would be really useful for you. I think you can teach english in Japan outside of the JET program but I'm not sure. Theres a college here that has two years Japanese here and then they sned all the students to Japan at their statelite campus in Japan and many of them end up teaching English in Japan. There was someone in my Japanese class that said a lot of Japanese companies need English speakers but I don't know if they are exgratting or not.

i understand what you mean about Tamil, honestly I think if I was born here I would never have studied Pashto because I'm really not interesred in it :P

Yeah I'm sure there are ways to teach English in Japan outside of the JET program. At whatever point I decide to actually look for jobs and go over, the key will be looking for ESL schools and not public schools. All public schools will need a degree as they will need to go through the official visa channels. ESL schools can sometimes be different.

As for Tamil, I guess I am somewhat interested in it; it was actual interest that got me started in it. But I have both, an interest in it as just a language, and this belief/push that I should learn it for the sake of my heritage. And I think if I am to progress, I will need to get rid of that belief about heritage and try to approach it as I do my other languages. I still think Tamil is a beautiful language, both in phonology and grammar. Especially since it's the first language I encountered that had an agglutinative morphology.

Haha, I still remember the years I spent in frustration before I learned this. For the first few years I used to ask my parents the difference between two words with a different ending, as I obviously recognized the root was the same. Or if I knew a word but then heard it with a different suffix, I would ask what that ending meant, assuming it had its own meaning. But my parents could never explain those things to me! Now I get why!
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Re: TAC 2015 - dEhiN (français, português, español, தமிழ்)

Postby Meera » 2015-02-14, 21:20

dEhiN wrote:
Meera wrote:Hey David, i think French/Japanese might be a good combo to focus on. They are drastically different and both seem like they would be really useful for you. I think you can teach english in Japan outside of the JET program but I'm not sure. Theres a college here that has two years Japanese here and then they sned all the students to Japan at their statelite campus in Japan and many of them end up teaching English in Japan. There was someone in my Japanese class that said a lot of Japanese companies need English speakers but I don't know if they are exgratting or not.

i understand what you mean about Tamil, honestly I think if I was born here I would never have studied Pashto because I'm really not interesred in it :P

Yeah I'm sure there are ways to teach English in Japan outside of the JET program. At whatever point I decide to actually look for jobs and go over, the key will be looking for ESL schools and not public schools. All public schools will need a degree as they will need to go through the official visa channels. ESL schools can sometimes be different.

As for Tamil, I guess I am somewhat interested in it; it was actual interest that got me started in it. But I have both, an interest in it as just a language, and this belief/push that I should learn it for the sake of my heritage. And I think if I am to progress, I will need to get rid of that belief about heritage and try to approach it as I do my other languages. I still think Tamil is a beautiful language, both in phonology and grammar. Especially since it's the first language I encountered that had an agglutinative morphology.

Haha, I still remember the years I spent in frustration before I learned this. For the first few years I used to ask my parents the difference between two words with a different ending, as I obviously recognized the root was the same. Or if I knew a word but then heard it with a different suffix, I would ask what that ending meant, assuming it had its own meaning. But my parents could never explain those things to me! Now I get why!


Yeah you might even be able to get a job teaching in the countryside areas of Japan which would probably help your Japanese a lot too.

Yeah I think Tamil is very interesting too :P The problem with it for me is that resources to get to an intermediate level aren't very good or non-existent. Or they teach classical Tamil which no one speaks lol
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TAC 2015:  (hi) (ja) (ar) (fr)
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Re: TAC 2015 - dEhiN (français, português, español, தமிழ்)

Postby TeneReef » 2015-02-15, 16:25

Meera wrote:
Yeah I think Tamil is very interesting too :P The problem with it for me is that resources to get to an intermediate level aren't very good or non-existent. Or they teach classical Tamil which no one speaks lol



I like classical Tamil, even children magazines like Champak (the Tamil version) are in this variant. :wink: When Malayalis (like Asin) speak Tamil, they use a mix of classical Tamil and Malayalam, and not colloquial Tamil (that's why Asin's Tamil is easier to understand than Dhanush's nasalized Chennai Tamil. :mrgreen: ).
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Re: TAC 2015 - dEhiN (français, português, español, தமிழ்)

Postby dEhiN » 2015-02-22, 22:29

I've decided to pause my TAC for now. I'm not sure when I'll continue it, but hopefully within the next month or two. I'll continue to maintain my languages, and even improve on them a little bit at a time. But I have some health issues I need to take care of. (I will also be continuing my linguistics course, so the truth is that I don't think I'll be able to actively juggle the course, a TAC, and dealing with my health stuff.)

PS. I also may not be as active on UL over the next 1 to 2 months.
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