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TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese) - Page 2 - UniLang

TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby Koko » 2015-02-01, 4:20

I tend to phrase things weirdly, so maybe how I wrote my post wasn't the best way too. I can see how you interpreted it as you did, so it's no fault of yours.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby qwerty » 2015-02-02, 22:13

Thank you everyone for your comments :) I'm afraid I'm no wiser, but at least I know I just have to wait until later to get this "ha"/"wa" business right. And it's really nice to see someone care enough for my progress to drop a message.

Feb 2, 2015 (Monday)
Today I went through katakana, Lesson 3: コツモンシノメ
The "smilies" (ツ シ and ソ ン) are killing me :)

I've been terribly busy lately, but I hope I can finish katakana by the end of this week and then I'll finally get to the textbook.

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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby qwerty » 2015-02-03, 20:39

Feb 3, 2015 (Tuesday)
Katakana, Lesson 4: フスヌラヲクタワウ
(And here I thought the smilies were confusing. Actually, ツ and シ make perfect sense now that I finally noticed they are written in the same "direction" as つ and し.)

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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby Ashrak » 2015-02-04, 7:03

The only katakana that gave me trouble were ツ and シ or ケ and ク. But I've never noticed the similarity with Hiragana. That's cool!
native:  (cs)
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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby qwerty » 2015-02-06, 22:36

Feb 6, 2015 (Friday)
I finished katakana on the train this morning (got a few curious looks as I sat there, drawing the kana and mouthing the pronunciation of all the example words, but whatever).

So the situation now is like this: hiragana - reading and writing much faster than before, but far from fluent; katakana - reading like a four year old, writing a bit better, although I still get stuck for as much as a minute sometimes. I know it's not much, especially considering it took me a month, but I am quite proud of myself :blush: and I'm really looking forward to actually starting with the textbook when I finally have enough time.

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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby qwerty » 2015-02-17, 21:06

I'm back to report some progress, finally :) I am done with the reading and grammar section in the first lesson of Genki, which covered mainly: greetings, は as a particle, の, questions using か, and numbers. Right now I'm a bit confused about the reading of the numbers, as there were several options for almost all of them, but I guess I'll get used to it.


Here is a little something I put together to practice what I'd learned:

おはよう! わたしは qwerty です。 どうぞよろしく。

わたしは スロバキアじんです。

にじゅうよんさいです。

だいがくいんせいです。

( わたしの ) せんもんは コンピューター です。

わたしのいもうとは にほんごのがくせいです。 (Well, this one's not entirely true yet, but once I learn how to express future tense or whishes, I'll get back to it.)


No Kanji yet, because I still haven't decided whether to use Heisig and hope for an overlap (with the ones taught in Genki) in a sufficiently distant future, or just follow the textbook and learn them "brute-force". Probably the first, but if I take them in his order, I might end up buried under a heap of words I don't even use in English... :ohwell: It's difficult.

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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby Ciarán12 » 2015-02-17, 21:37

qwerty wrote: Right now I'm a bit confused about the reading of the numbers, as there were several options for almost all of them, but I guess I'll get used to it.


I don't have a copy of Genki I handy, but what you probably saw was the fact that Japanese has several different ways of counting things depending on the kind of thing you are counting. You'll pick each counter up as you go along, so don't worry to much about it.

qwerty wrote:Here is a little something I put together to practice what I'd learned:

おはよう! わたしは qwerty です。 どうぞよろしく。

わたしは スロバキアじんです。

にじゅうよんさいです。

だいがくいんせいです。

( わたしの ) せんもんは コンピューター です。

わたしのいもうとは にほんごのがくせいです。 (Well, this one's not entirely true yet, but once I learn how to express future tense or whishes, I'll get back to it.)


All looks good, although the "わたしは" in the sentence "わたしはスロバキアじんです。" isn't necessary as you already have "わたしは" in the first sentence. Also, Japanese does not use spaces, so you can leave them out.

One thing I would say though, when you say your major is "コンピューター", what exactly do you mean? If it's IT or something, you can say "IT".

As for future tense, there is none, the present and the future tenses are the same in Japanese. For wishes, I'm sure the book teaches it a bit later on, so I won't confuse you with it now.

qwerty wrote:No Kanji yet, because I still haven't decided whether to use Heisig and hope for an overlap (with the ones taught in Genki) in a sufficiently distant future, or just follow the textbook and learn them "brute-force". Probably the first, but if I take them in his order, I might end up buried under a heap of words I don't even use in English... :ohwell: It's difficult.


This... depends on learning style. For me, it is an absolute waste of time and effort to learn the "brute-force" style, given that the whole thing can be learned so much more easily the Heisig way (again, for me). So if you are intending on learning all the 2000 or so kanji you need to be considered basically literate in Japanese, I think you should go with the Heisig method. If you are cramming for a specific test that will have only a certain group of kanji on it and you only have a few days to learn them, maybe the brute-force approach is better in the short term. Also, with Heisig, you don't have to worry about learning "useless" kanji, as the 2000~ in the first Remembering the Kanji book are the basic "Jouyou" kanji that all Japanese high-school kids need to know and is considered the minimum to be able to read a newspaper in Japanese.
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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby Meera » 2015-02-18, 0:52

Ciarán12 wrote:One thing I would say though, when you say your major is "コンピューター", what exactly do you mean? If it's IT or something, you can say "IT".


Hey Ciarán, I'm not sure if this is what she means or not, but that sentence is exactly from Genki 1 and in some of the exercises they make you say "My major is computers" or "Takeshi's major is computers" which I agree sounds kind of ridiculous :P lol.
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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-02-18, 1:07

There seem to be a lot of language courses that try to teach you how to say something like "I study computers." :lol:

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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby Meera » 2015-02-18, 4:19

vijayjohn wrote:There seem to be a lot of language courses that try to teach you how to say something like "I study computers." :lol:


Genki also has economics, anthropology, and politics all in the first chapter. You know because when you go to Japan the first thing you will desperately need to say is "My major is Anthropology!"

Language courses tend to have some really akward phrases sometimes lol
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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby Ciarán12 » 2015-02-18, 10:38

Meera wrote:Genki also has economics, anthropology, and politics all in the first chapter. You know because when you go to Japan the first thing you will desperately need to say is "My major is Anthropology!"

Language courses tend to have some really akward phrases sometimes lol


One of the first words I learned in Japanese from the Japanese for Young People course book I used was そろばん - "Abacus". I've only ever used that word as an example of how language course books teach you useless vocabulary early on :lol:
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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-02-18, 10:59

Isn't Genki used as a textbook for university courses, though? To be fair, probably students in those courses would be expected to learn how to say that they're anthropology (or whatever else) majors fairly early on (when learning to introducing themselves as university students). :) But yeah, for Japanese learners in general, it's not exactly the most useful phrase. :lol:

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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby qwerty » 2015-02-18, 13:09

Ciarán12 wrote:Also, Japanese does not use spaces, so you can leave them out.
I couldn't believe my eyes when I noticed they didn't use spaces, but is it considered wrong if I write them in some places? (At least now, at the beginning, when it helps me a lot in reading. I could drop them later.)

Ciarán12 wrote:One thing I would say though, when you say your major is "コンピューター", what exactly do you mean? If it's IT or something, you can say "IT".
Exactly as Meera pointed out, I wrote it the way I was taught :blush: What would you suggest for "computer science"?

Also, Ciarán, thank you very much for your view on the Kanji learning styles. I guess I'll go with Heisig after all.


As for the awkward words/phrases in language textbooks, I had this bet going on with a friend of mine: whenever we encountered something really weird, we had to use it in a normal conversation at some point :) Unfortunately I cannot remember the really good ones now, but for example, this sentence from the Spanish Duolingo comes to mind: "la chica toca la campana todos los días" (the girl rings the bell every day).

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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby Meera » 2015-02-18, 17:12

Ciarán12 wrote:
Meera wrote:Genki also has economics, anthropology, and politics all in the first chapter. You know because when you go to Japan the first thing you will desperately need to say is "My major is Anthropology!"

Language courses tend to have some really akward phrases sometimes lol


One of the first words I learned in Japanese from the Japanese for Young People course book I used was そろばん - "Abacus". I've only ever used that word as an example of how language course books teach you useless vocabulary early on :lol:


Lol You could also use it to impress your Japanese friends but still what a useless word!

vijayjohn wrote:Isn't Genki used as a textbook for university courses, though? To be fair, probably students in those courses would be expected to learn how to say that they're anthropology (or whatever else) majors fairly early on (when learning to introducing themselves as university students). :) But yeah, for Japanese learners in general, it's not exactly the most useful phrase. :lol:


Yeah Vijay that's true, but most peoples majors probably aren't anthropology. Maybe the others they taught are useful like Asian Studies, Business, etc. But even in my class I never understood why they used コンピューター but not use IT or Computer Science or something. Maybe it makes more sense in Japanese though lol
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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby Meera » 2015-02-18, 17:21

Ciarán12 wrote:I used Remembering the Kanji to learn Kanji and seriously, I'm not exaggerating, it changed my life. It was so amazingly good, I felt exactly like you did with the kana, but Kanji are supposed to take you years, so when I did it in, like, 3 or 4 months, I was blown away by it. And the mnemonics - I actually love the silly stories, they are like a mad, surreal dream.


Hey Ciarán12, sorry I just saw this now and I was wondering how far along in Japanese do you have to be to use remembering the Kanji? Could a beginner whose gone through Genki 1 use it?

And sorry Qwerty for hijacking your thread :oops:
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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby Ciarán12 » 2015-02-18, 17:46

Meera wrote:Hey Ciarán12, sorry I just saw this now and I was wondering how far along in Japanese do you have to be to use remembering the Kanji? Could a beginner whose gone through Genki 1 use it?


You can use it from the very start, you don't need to know any kanji to start using it. A brief summary of how it works: the majority of kanji, particularly the complex ones, are comprised of other kanji or individual non-kanji elements pieced together. The order the elements appear in in a kanji is usually predictable, so it is normally sufficient to simply know which elements are in a kanji in order to be able to write it. What RTK does is attributes a meaning to each kanji element (there are about 200-250 kanji elements in the commonly used kanji), and then you create a story connecting each element to the meaning of the kanji. That way you if you remember the story, you'll remember the elements and the meaning and can write the kanji. For me (and many, many others, it would seem), it is easier by far to remember a story than it is to remember an abstract set of lines in a specific order. So, the end result after the first book is that you will be able to read and write all of the basic 2000 kanji needed to be literate in Japanese. You won't know the pronunciations, but there are several ways to get around that; you can get RTK 2 which does the readings, you could brute force learn them (and trust me, if you do, having done the writing and meaning stuff with RTK 1 will make this task so much less difficult), or you could simply learn how to spell words you already know with the right kanji, and then you will automatically be able to tell what the pronunciations are (this is my favourite method as it increases your vocab too).

EDIT: Okay, I realise I always go on about how great RTK is, I should mention again that there are those who dislike the approach, so it clearly isn't for everyone (but then again, what is?), I think it is worth checking out though. You can get a free PDF of the first 270 kanji done with the method from the official site I think, so there's no reason not to download that and check it out. You will understand exactly how the method works and whether or not it is right for you by the end of that PDF.
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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby Meera » 2015-02-18, 18:53

It sounds great, thanks for explaining it! I will definitely check it out before I buy it :mrgreen:
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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby qwerty » 2015-02-24, 20:49

I haven't have much time lately, but I took a few kanji from RTK every day and now I know the first 70. It's amazing how they all look the same at first sight, but you can somehow decipher them anyway :) Absolutely no chance I would have learned this using just brute force.


By the way, last week I found out that my university had an agreement with some Japanese university for intensive summer language courses, which is quite a motivation for making as much progress as possible until next summer and then try to apply for one.

And one more thing: does anybody know of a language forum similar to Unilang that has more Japanese native speakers? It seems to me there is hardly anyone here :) (I'm sorry if this question is in any way against the rules here; if that is the case, please just ignore it.)

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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby Ciarán12 » 2015-02-24, 22:01

qwerty wrote:And one more thing: does anybody know of a language forum similar to Unilang that has more Japanese native speakers? It seems to me there is hardly anyone here :) (I'm sorry if this question is in any way against the rules here; if that is the case, please just ignore it.)


I have never managed to find any other forums like Unilang, period. There has always been a decent number of people here who speak Japanese well and/or are learning it, but the reason the Japanese forum is not all that active is because we don't have any native speakers. Japanese people tend to hang out on the Japanese internet.
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: TAC 2015 - qwerty (Japanese)

Postby qwerty » 2015-03-03, 22:00

As I was reviewing Lesson 1 I stumbled upon this thing with の: can it be (I'm sorry that I can't explain it better) repeated? For example, how would I say "Takeshi's Japanese teacher"? Can I just use の twice, i.e. たけしのにほんごのせんせい ? Somehow it doesn't feel right :hmm: mostly because there would have to be an established order in which the clause is evaluated for it to make sense.


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