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TAC 2015 Itikar (Hindi, Danish, Greek) - Page 2 - UniLang

TAC 2015 Itikar (Hindi, Danish, Greek)

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Re: TAC 2015 Itikar (Hindi, Danish, Greek)

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-02-04, 19:23

IpseDixit wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:non so se esiste anche in altre lingue dell'India

No. Ci sono tre versioni di MasterChef in India, tutte trasmesse per Star Plus, che solamente trasmette solamente programmi in hindi.


Ok, grazie per l'informazione. :)

Grazie per le correzioni! :)
Itikar wrote:Non so molto dell'India, come ho già detto, per cui non son a conoscenza di quanto sian frequenti questo genere d'alternanze.

Sono molto frequenti. In malayalam occorrono probabilmente più frequentemente che in hindi.
IpseDixit wrote:Il corsivo del devanagari com'è? Non l'ho mai visto...

Esiste? :?
Itikar wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:Il corsivo del devanagari com'è? Non l'ho mai visto...
In verità neanch'io. Ho provato a cercare eppure ho trovato soltanto questo:
https://m1.behance.net/rendition/module ... e99ad9.jpg
Sembra molto piú simile allo stampatello rispetto al nostro.

Sembra simile al gujarati. :lol:

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Re: TAC 2015 Itikar (Hindi, Danish, Greek)

Postby Itikar » 2015-02-09, 13:47

So here we are. Now the so much promised first impressions.

I shall state again that Hindustani is a very rich language in all sense. Phonetically it has many consonantal and vocalic sounds. Given for example the Italian /t/ Hindustani has got practically four versions of it. A dental, as the Italian one, an aspirated one, always dental, plus a retroflex and its aspirated version. I've found very fascinating, yet logical, that in English borrowings 't' is rendered with the letter for the aspirated retroflex. So actually devanagari is somewhat more precise than common IPA transcriptions given on Italian dictionaries for our borrowings.
Beyond phonetics I am impressed by the richness of vocabulary and expressions that come from various sources: Sanskrit, Persian, Arabic, English, etc.
I expected this to an extent but touching it first hand is something else. :)

Concerning devanagari alone things are starting to get better. I still mix vowels at times, or sometimes even consonants. I hope it will get better with time. The big news here is that I have discovered the marvelous schwa deletion! I already hate it, although I should not really, since it relieves me of many consonantal ligatures which would be a real pain now.

So, now I'll speak of the language itself. I expected it to be much less exotic than it actually is. To be honest I the way verbs are used reminds me the way English builds its progressive tenses and at the same time I have spotted several cognates... with Russian! Пить, день, огонь...
So I thought to be in Siberia while instead I am in India.

What I am finding harder, as of now, are the strict lef-branching syntax and this thing that "of" agrees with the "possessor" instead than with the possessed, i.e. बहिन का स्कूटर.
It would be more logic for me if it was की.
I think I've got to see it as something similar to Russian чей, as in "человек чья машина сломалась". Still not quite the same, but closer.

Okay, for those who don't care about my boring and imprecise comments I'll post the link for this nice site I have found with a lot of material on Hindi: http://www.learning-hindi.com/

In general I have been negatively impressed by the relative lack of resources for Hindi online. There is still quite a lot, it is just that it seems to me that there is about the same stuff that is available for small European language spoken in countries where almost everybody speaks English. Should I name a few? Yes, so: Irish, Dutch, Swedish and the other Scandinavian languages.
I guess it is devanagari that scares off the learners. :hmm:
Fletto i muscoli e sono nel vuoto!
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Re: TAC 2015 Itikar (Hindi, Danish, Greek)

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-02-09, 22:29

You seem to be having fun learning Hindi, so I'm glad to hear that. :D
Itikar wrote:A dental, as the Italian one, an aspirated one, always still dental,

What I am finding harder, as of now, are the strict lef-branching syntax and this thing that "of" agrees with the "possessor" instead than with the possessed, i.e. बहिन का स्कूटर.
It would be more logic for me if it was की.
I think I've got to see it as something similar to Russian чей, as in "человек чья машина сломалась". Still not quite the same, but closer.

If it helps, with any language that has that kind of construction (including Hindi), I like to think of the possessive particle as being analogous to 's in English. So e.g. बहिन का स्कूटर = sister's scooter.
In general I have been negatively impressed by the relative lack of resources for Hindi online. There is still quite a lot, it is just that it seems to me that there is about the same stuff that is available for small European language spoken in countries where almost everybody speaks English. Should I name a few? Yes, so: Irish, Dutch, Swedish and the other Scandinavian languages.
I guess it is devanagari that scares off the learners. :hmm:

Nah, that's a problem that exists with practically every language that isn't European. I honestly think even Mandarin could use some more resources.

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Re: TAC 2015 Itikar (Hindi, Danish, Greek)

Postby Itikar » 2015-02-09, 23:53

Thanks for both correction and suggestions.

Yes, I'm having fun with Hindi.
I enjoy that it is different from any language I have tried so far. :)
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Re: TAC 2015 Itikar (Hindi, Danish, Greek)

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-02-10, 1:11

Itikar wrote:Thanks for both the correction and the suggestions.

Yes, I'm having fun with Hindi.
I enjoy that how it is different from any language I have tried so far. :)

Great! :mrgreen: Have fun! :D

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Re: TAC 2015 Itikar (Hindi, Danish, Greek)

Postby Youngfun » 2015-02-18, 8:31

IpseDixit wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:No. Ci sono tre versioni di MasterChef in India, tutte trasmesse per da Star Plus, che solamente trasmette solamente programmi in hindi.


trasmesse per Star Plus = aired for Star Plus
trasmesse da Star Plus = aired by Star Plus (passive)

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Re: TAC 2015 Itikar (Hindi, Danish, Greek)

Postby Itikar » 2015-02-24, 19:24

So, here I am. The exam session has passed, so I am back to report.

In this time I've been trying to read as much devanagari text as possible, with preference, of course, for text containing words I already know and/or text with recordings. It is gradually getting better, but I have to second those who say devanagari is an insidious beast. It seems all nice and friendly when you meet him but then those vowel marks are a real pain.

Regarding the language some days ago I think I reached the peak of discouragement but then I got over it and now I am back on track. I think I underestimated the exoticness of Hindustani. But this is not necessarily bad per se, because in the long run it will likely prevent me from getting bored.

As for resources I found several nice stuff:
-Word of the day: http://www.innovativelanguage.com/word-of-the-day/hindi and http://www.transparent.com/word-of-the- ... hindi.html
At this level I prefer the first because it uses more cognates and has generally clearer pronunciations done by different speakers.
-A door to Hindi: http://taj.chass.ncsu.edu/ Top notch work although partially complete.
-Hindi Gym: http://www.hindigym.com/ There's some other stuff!

A problem I have faced has been remembering the correct gender for several nouns, which are non-transparent. I've googled around but I haven't found much. There is a small pdf on Hindi Gym with some tips and there's a paper that tells you the secret for remembering them which is to learn them with adjectives! ...But I had already thought about that... :roll:
It isn't bad to get some feedback anyway.
I think on the other hand that, apart from remembering nouns in sentences, a good idea could be to remember the plurals, since even ambiguous nouns have often a different plural depending if they are feminine or masculine. I suppose I shall be going to do some experiments on myself. :P

I've also tried to listen to the first songs in Hindi. I didn't understand anything, but I've found several sites with lyrics. This one has even lyrics in devanagari. :)
By the way, I also noticed that songs sometimes have lines in English.

Finally a review of the Assimil I have been using until now. Well, it is still an Assimil, so there is a lot of audio of good quality and the method is still good. This course however is shorter than the usual Assimil, about half, although exercises are more numerous and longer. Lessons aren't too short but not to long either, while the learning curve is steep. Text is given in transcription until half of the lessons, i.e. lesson 28, after which one has only devanagari text and audio. In grammar units and in notes, however, practically only transcription is used in noted.
No, in comparison to other Assimil courses I'm not too impressed. What annoys me, however, is that this course is too "Indocentric" in my opinion. I mean that instead of presenting Indian language and culture to an unprepared beginner, as I am, it seems aimed at somebody who has already an interest in India. To make the reader understand I'll mention the way in which "A Door to Hindi" (see above) presents the dialogue in the bazaar: a woman goes shopping and asks for the most common vegetables. In Assimil a woman goes shopping too but she asks instead for a dozen spices I had never heard before in my life and in the end it explains the difference between how to say paprika and black pepper in Hindi!

Last but not least I've eventually created a keyboard layout based on the Persian one that allows to type also in Arabic and Urdu. This subsequently prompted me to realise also a half-decent keyboard layout for Russian which supports the other national languages written in Cyrillic as well as several minority languages spoken in the Russian Federation. At least the ones I wanderlust for more often.

About wanderlusts I've finally taken the sad decision to make a little list of the languages I want to learn at a level higher than a mere dabble and added them to my profile on Unilang. I doubt I'll really manage to study them all, but whatever, who cares. What pains me is that I had to exclude many languages I liked. :doggy: I suppose I can still wanderlust away from my wanderlusts. :rotfl:
Fletto i muscoli e sono nel vuoto!
All corrections are welcome and appreciated.

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Re: TAC 2015 Itikar (Hindi, Danish, Greek)

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-02-24, 20:38

Nah, perché? La tua lista mi sembra plausibilissima. :lol:

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Re: TAC 2015 Itikar (Hindi, Danish, Greek)

Postby Itikar » 2015-02-24, 21:54

È che alcune son state rinunce molto sofferte. Turco e albanese per esempio o addirittura l'accadico con l'epica di Gilgamesh che leggevo fin da piccolo. :(

Beh, vabbeh, se vorrò due o tre in piú ce le potrò anche infilare. Tanto tra non impararne venti e non impararne ventitré che differenza c'è? :mrgreen:
Fletto i muscoli e sono nel vuoto!
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Re: TAC 2015 Itikar (Hindi, Danish, Greek)

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-02-24, 22:24

Itikar wrote:A problem I have faced has been remembering the correct gender for several nouns, which are non-transparent. I've googled around but I haven't found much. There is a small pdf on Hindi Gym with some tips and there's a paper that tells you the secret for remembering them which is to learn them with adjectives! ...But I had already thought about that... :roll:
It isn't bad to get some feedback anyway.
I think on the other hand that, apart from remembering nouns in sentences, a good idea could be to remember the plurals, since even ambiguous nouns have often a different plural depending if they are feminine or masculine.

That's true. Maybe you've already found this by looking around online, so I don't know whether this is going to help at all, but here's just my quick and dirty tips for telling what gender a noun is in Hindi:

1. Masculine nouns usually end in -[a] (and more rarely -[u]) or a consonant.

2. Feminine nouns usually end in -[ i ].

3. If a feminine noun ends in -[a] or a consonant, I think it's usually either a Perso-Arabic loanword (e.g. किताब 'book') or (less often?) a word that had a feminine ending in Sanskrit that was lost (e.g. आग 'fire', which is from Sanskrit अग्रि [əgri]).

4. Masculine nouns ending in -[ i ] (e.g. पानी) are the exception rather than the rule and usually come from nouns that were neuter in Sanskrit.

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Re: TAC 2015 Itikar (Hindi, Danish, Greek)

Postby Itikar » 2015-02-24, 22:39

No, on the contrary, I thank you Vijay for the interesting explanation.
Actually the first two categories are explained in all resources I've found so far. The fourth is more or less dismissed as a category grouping relatively few exceptions. An example given by Assimil is आदमी, although they point out that it is a loan from Arabic.
What is really not explained deeply is the third category which is also the most critical.

It is funny that despite the exoticness and all that Hindustani in this regard reminds me a lot the Romance languages. To be honest also the way gender inflection is managed on participles is surprisingly similar to my local Mantuan although with switched genders. I.e. in Mantuan it is the feminine which has different endings in plural and singular while the masculine is invariable.
It's a small world. :D
Fletto i muscoli e sono nel vuoto!
All corrections are welcome and appreciated.

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Re: TAC 2015 Itikar (Hindi, Danish, Greek)

Postby eskandar » 2015-02-25, 6:52

Another good rule of thumb (although not true in all cases) is that Hindustani words ending in [t] or [sh] are usually feminine.
Tracking my progress here. Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: TAC 2015 Itikar (Hindi, Danish, Greek)

Postby Itikar » 2015-02-25, 13:48

This is cool! :shock:
Thank you very much Eskandar! :)
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Re: TAC 2015 Itikar (Hindi, Danish, Greek)

Postby Meera » 2015-02-28, 2:37

vijayjohn wrote:
Itikar wrote:A problem I have faced has been remembering the correct gender for several nouns, which are non-transparent. I've googled around but I haven't found much. There is a small pdf on Hindi Gym with some tips and there's a paper that tells you the secret for remembering them which is to learn them with adjectives! ...But I had already thought about that... :roll:
It isn't bad to get some feedback anyway.
I think on the other hand that, apart from remembering nouns in sentences, a good idea could be to remember the plurals, since even ambiguous nouns have often a different plural depending if they are feminine or masculine.

That's true. Maybe you've already found this by looking around online, so I don't know whether this is going to help at all, but here's just my quick and dirty tips for telling what gender a noun is in Hindi:

1. Masculine nouns usually end in -[a] (and more rarely -[u]) or a consonant.

2. Feminine nouns usually end in -[ i ].

3. If a feminine noun ends in -[a] or a consonant, I think it's usually either a Perso-Arabic loanword (e.g. किताब 'book') or (less often?) a word that had a feminine ending in Sanskrit that was lost (e.g. आग 'fire', which is from Sanskrit अग्रि [əgri]).

4. Masculine nouns ending in -[ i ] (e.g. पानी) are the exception rather than the rule and usually come from nouns that were neuter in Sanskrit.



There are some exceptions though which sucks :P
अहिंसा
TAC 2015:  (hi) (ja) (ar) (fr)
Loves: (bn) (ta) (id) (tr) (ur)


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