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Massimiliano - Montana Salish (Séliš) - Page 5 - UniLang

Massimiliano - Montana Salish (Séliš)

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Re: Massimiliano - Montana Salish and Kalispel - NAILC 2012

Postby księżycowy » 2012-11-15, 14:16

I'm not sure if you've touched on this before or not (I suppose if I wasn't so lazy I could check), but I'm curious what the word order is in a typical Montana Salish sentence.

In Lushootseed it's like this:
ʔugʷəč̓əd čəd tsi č̓ač̓as.
I looked for the girl.

With gʷəč̓əd being the verb " to look for." And ʔu- being the perfective prefix. Of particular interest to me is the fact that the verb comes first.

A literal renduring of the Lushootseed would be:
[did]-look_for I the_one girl

It's also interesting that the pronoun comes after the verb. Guess I'm just too used to Indo-European constructs. :P

Actually, the word order reminds me of Irish, now that I think of it. :hmm:
þūhte mē þæt ic gesāwe syllicre trēow on lyft lædan lēohte bewunden bēama beorhtost.

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Re: Massimiliano - Montana Salish and Kalispel - NAILC 2012

Postby Massimiliano B » 2012-11-16, 0:06

Montana Salish is a VOS or VSO language, but not strictly and not always. In fact, with transitive verbs in the past tense the personal pronouns subject are at the end of the verb, but some of them are at the beginning:

1) ƛ̓éʔenten ɫu šešutm = "I looked for the girl". Literally, the meaning is: looked-(her)-I the girl. The word ƛ̓éʔenten means "looked-(3.obj.)-1.pers.sing. subj.". The final letter -n is the subject. Third person singular object is always understood. That's why I wrote it in brackets. The particle ɫu indicates a secondary particular object, and šešutm means "girl".

2) ƛ̓éʔentes ɫu šešutm = "He/she looked for the girl" (literally: looked-(her)-he/she the girl). The word ƛ̓éʔentes means "looked-(3.obj.is understood)-3.pers.sing. subj.". The final letter -s is the subject.

If a separate agent is added it comes after the object and it's marked with t:

ƛ̓éʔentes ɫu šešutm t sqélixʷ = "The Indian looked for the girl".

3) qe ƛ̓éʔentem ɫu šešutm = "We looked for the girl". In this sentence, the particle qe together with the suffix -m of the verb ƛ̓éʔentem indicate the first person singular subject. Third person singular object is understood. So, part of the subject is before the verb. The first person plural pronoun is the only that appear before the verb

Sometimes it is the object that is put at the beginning:

qʷo ƛ̓éʔentexʷ = "You looked for me". Here, the first word qʷo is the first person singlar object, and the suffix - means "you". [Here, the sentence is exactly the same as in Italian: "mi cercasti", with "mi" = me, "cerc-" = looked and "-asti" = you :) ]

When a verb is used in its intransitive form, the subject is always before the verb, except in the third person singular and plural:

čn ƛ̓éʔem t šešutm = I looked for the girl (čn = I)
kʷ ƛ̓éʔem t šešutm You looked for the girl ( = you)
ƛ̓éʔem t šešutm = "Looked (he/she is understood) for the girl"

If a separate agent is added it comes either after the object or before it and it's marked with ɫu. It is never before the verb:

ƛ̓éʔem t šešutm ɫu sqélixʷ = "The Indian looked for the girl". Literally: looked girl-object Indian-subject.

or

ƛ̓éʔem ɫu sqélixʷ t šešutm = "The Indian looked for the girl" (literally: looked Indian-subject girl-object)

That's what I've understood after one year of irregular study of the language :)
Non è tempo di lutti / né di follie. / Questo è tempo di Dio. / Che aspettiamo? / Quale segno? / Quale miracolo? /…. (Elena Bono, Morte di Adamo)

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Re: Massimiliano - Montana Salish and Kalispel - NAILC 2012

Postby księżycowy » 2012-11-16, 12:02

Interesting, so Montana Salish adds the subject of the verb to the end of the verb stem.
Lushootseed (at least as far as I've studied) doesn't add the subject to the verb stem, but adds it after the verb.

Seems that the verb comes first for most Salish languages then (if not all).

That was a very interesting and detailed answer, thanks Massimiliano! :D
þūhte mē þæt ic gesāwe syllicre trēow on lyft lædan lēohte bewunden bēama beorhtost.

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Re: Massimiliano - Montana Salish and Kalispel - NAILC 2012

Postby Massimiliano B » 2012-11-18, 0:09

księżycowy wrote:Interesting,
so Montana Salish adds the subject of the verb to the end of the verb
stem.


Only when the verb is transitive. When it is intransitive, the subject
stands alone before the verb: čn xʷuy = I (=čn)
went.

Montana Salish čn and Lushootseed čəd are the same
word. The Lushootseed form underwent the phonetic changes you said (n
became d) :)
Last edited by Massimiliano B on 2013-01-11, 13:50, edited 1 time in total.
Non è tempo di lutti / né di follie. / Questo è tempo di Dio. / Che aspettiamo? / Quale segno? / Quale miracolo? /…. (Elena Bono, Morte di Adamo)

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Re: Massimiliano - Montana Salish and Kalispel - NAILC 2012

Postby księżycowy » 2012-11-18, 2:41

Yes indeed. Also interesting that the pronoun takes opposite positions in the two languages.
þūhte mē þæt ic gesāwe syllicre trēow on lyft lædan lēohte bewunden bēama beorhtost.

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Re: Massimiliano - Montana Salish and Kalispel - NAILC 2012

Postby Massimiliano B » 2012-11-21, 0:23

Sometimes there is a great variation within a language family. For example, personal pronouns in Italian are not obligatory, while in French they are. I can say "mangio" (I eat) in Italian. In French I have to say "je mange".
Non è tempo di lutti / né di follie. / Questo è tempo di Dio. / Che aspettiamo? / Quale segno? / Quale miracolo? /…. (Elena Bono, Morte di Adamo)

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Re: Massimiliano - Montana Salish and Kalispel - NAILC 2012

Postby księżycowy » 2012-11-21, 2:15

Oui oui. :P
þūhte mē þæt ic gesāwe syllicre trēow on lyft lædan lēohte bewunden bēama beorhtost.

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Re: Massimiliano - Montana Salish and Kalispel - NAILC 2012

Postby Massimiliano B » 2012-12-01, 1:03

I've found some
useful sentences in the Selish dictionary
(http://salishworld.com/Selish%20Diction ... %202.4.pdf):


1) ha iše kʷ uwewlš t seliš = Do you speak Salish?

ha = interrogative particle
iše = it means either "always" or "do". Sometimes it is used
in conjunction with the particle "ha". In this case I think its meaning
is like English "do".
= you (intransitive)
uwéwlš = to speak formally. This is the past tense. It
translates the English habitual present tense.
t = introduces the object of a morphologically intransitive
verb
seliš = Montana Salish


2) ƛ̓mey u iše čn ɫuwewlš = I speak a little bit

ƛ̓mey = few (?)
u = that
iše = "do"
čn = I (intransitive)
ɫuwewlš = speak, talk. The letter ɫ of ɫuwewlš is
a diminutive prefix. ɫuwewlš thus means "to little-speak".


3) tas yoʔstén ɫu séliš nqʷlqʷeltis = I don't know how to
speak Salish

tas = this word is composed by the word tam and
the word es. Tam means "not" and es
refers to an action that is or was going on
yoʔstén = it means "I learn how to do (something)"
ɫu = Introduces the object of a transitive verb
séliš= Montana Salish
nqʷlqʷéltis = qʷlqʷélt means "to speak / to talk". I don't
know the meaning of initial "n" and of final "is".


4) x̣ʷl̓sté u tám t seliš u kʷes uwéwlši = Why are you not
speaking Salish?

x̣ʷl̓sté = Why
u = that
tam = not
t = introduces an object
seliš = Montana Salish
u = that
kʷes = you are
uwéwlši = speaking


5) tám čnes nsuxʷneʔ = I don't understand.

tám = Not
čnes = I
nsuxʷneʔ = understand


6) tam x̣e čnes nsuxʷne i kʷ ɫkʷk̓ʷi m kʷ uwewlš = I don't
understand good, speak slowly

tam = not
x̣e = good
čnes = I
nsuxʷne = understand
i = this particle emphasizes the following phrase
= you
ɫkʷk̓ʷi = go slow
m = future marker
= you
uwewlš = speak


7) kʷ tl̓ čen̓ = where are you from?

= you
tl̓ = from
čen̓= where
Non è tempo di lutti / né di follie. / Questo è tempo di Dio. / Che aspettiamo? / Quale segno? / Quale miracolo? /…. (Elena Bono, Morte di Adamo)

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Re: Massimiliano - Montana Salish and Kalispel - NAILC 2012

Postby Massimiliano B » 2013-01-06, 23:53

I was very busy last month. I'm sorry I didn't post!

I like this sentence:

ta kʷ qes c̓ʔešmistxʷ ɫu annuwewlštn (ta = not; = you; qes = I think it introduces an unreal fact. I'm not sure; c̓ʔešmistxʷ= you are ashamed of it; ɫu = here it introduces the object; annuwewlštn = your (an-) language).

It means:

Don't be ashamed of your language!

I think this sentence expresses a great truth!
Non è tempo di lutti / né di follie. / Questo è tempo di Dio. / Che aspettiamo? / Quale segno? / Quale miracolo? /…. (Elena Bono, Morte di Adamo)

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Re: Massimiliano - Montana Salish

Postby Massimiliano B » 2013-02-25, 1:09

As I wrote in a previous post, pharingeals are common in Montana Salish (I know now it is better to call it Seliš, which is the way this people call their language). Thanks to Canis latrans, I'm now aware of the importance of these sounds for Interior Salish languages like Seliš, Kalispel, Coeur d'Alene, and Colville-Okanagan.

I've found many words that have pharingeal phonemes in the Montana Salish (or better Seliš) language. Here are some examples that I've found in this site: http://archive.phonetics.ucla.edu/Language/FLA/FLA.html

ʕáwəntxʷ = you said it.
This word contains the simple pharingeal ʕ.

yaʔʕəmím = gathering (as, rocks)
This one has the glottalized pharingeal ʔʕ (that is, a pharingeal preceded by a glottal stop - or better a glottal "blow").

ʕʷóst = lost
This word has the rounded pharingeal ʕʷ, that is a pharingeal produced with rounded lips.

háʔʕʷumsxʷ = loosen it!
ʔʕʷ is the most complex of the four pharyngeals. It is a glottalized pharingeal with rounded lips.

Why are these sounds so rare among the world's languages? Why human beings prefer some sounds instead of others? Are these sounds difficult to pronounce even for the native speakers?
Last edited by Massimiliano B on 2013-08-31, 0:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Massimiliano - Montana Salish

Postby Massimiliano B » 2013-06-13, 23:25

I wonder whether the transitive morphology in Montana Salish is related to the topicalization of the object and thus to the focusing on the action in itself that is carried out by the subject.


The Italian language has a «transitive paradigm» similar to that of Montana Salish:


«Marco l'ha mangiata la mela» (Marco ate the apple)

literally means «Marco it.feminine.obj-ate the apple». The use of the clitic pronoun «l'» (which, in English, has to be translated with «it» and refers to the object, which is the apple) indicates the topic (which is, here, the apple) that is already known by the speaker and the listener (or that the speaker supposes the listener knows), while the verb «ha mangiata» («has eaten») is the comment (rheme), which is the new information.
The clitic marks the information already known. So, the use of the repetition of the object serves as a presentation of the core information of the sentence, which is the fact that Marco «ate it», as for the apple.


Here are two examples from Montana Salish. The second sentence shows the same way of topicalization:

čɫip ɫu Čoní t sne [hunt (čɫip) / «secondary in importance» (ɫu) / Johny / «oblique» (t) / cow (sne)]

"Johnny hunted the cow"

Here, the verb čɫip is morphologically intransitive. The subject is «secondary in importance», thus the object is the rheme, that is the new information.


čɫipntés ɫu sne t Čoni [hunt.TRANSITIVE SUFFIX.he-she (III singular object is understood) / «secondary in importance» (ɫu) / cow (sne) / Johnny]

"Johnny hunted the cow"

Here, the verb is transitive and has an understood third person singular object, while the object, expressed by the noun sne (cow) is preceded by the word ɫu, which indicates that it has a secondary importance (see Barry Carson, A grammar of Spokan, page 53). Thus, it is likely that the particle ɫu introducing an object, along with the transitive paradigm, is used in order to show that there's a new information in this sentence, and that this new information is conveyed by the verb. This would explain also why the use of the particle ɫu and t is inverted.

Maybe my thoughts are just rubbish.
Non è tempo di lutti / né di follie. / Questo è tempo di Dio. / Che aspettiamo? / Quale segno? / Quale miracolo? /…. (Elena Bono, Morte di Adamo)

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby Massimiliano B » 2013-08-29, 23:55

I have created a new Selish alphabet, that avoids the strange signs of the official script. In brackets I write the official writing system:

a
z (c)
zx ()
c (č)
cx (č̓)
e
h
i
k
kf ()
kfx (k̓ʷ)
l
xl ()
lh (ɫ)
tlx (ƛ̓)
m
xm ()
n
xn ()
o
p
px ()
q
qx ()
qf ()
qfx (q̓ʷ)
s
sj (š)
t
tx ()
u
jh ()
jhf (x̣ʷ)
b (w)
xb ()
jf ()
y
xy ()
x (ʔ)
g (ʕ)
xg (ʔʕ)
gb (ʕʷ)
xgb (ʔʕʷ)
v (ə) (schwa)

This is an attempt to create an alphabet that uses only letters of the English alphabet.

Here's a sentence written with the classical script and then with mine:

ha iše kʷ uwewlš t seliš = Do you speak Salish?

ha xisje kf ubeblsj t selisj

ƛ̓mey u iše čn ɫuwewlš = I speak a little bit

tlxmey xu xisje cn lhubeblsj

I've added a glottal stop before the words beginning with a vowel, because this is the actual pronunciation.


Other examples:

ʕáwəntxʷ = you said it.

(my new writing system): gabvntjf


yaʔʕəmím = gathering (as, rocks)

yaxgvmim


ʕʷóst = lost

gbost


háʔʕʷumsxʷ = loosen it!

haxgbumsjf


This is only an attempt. In this thread I will use the «normal» script.
Non è tempo di lutti / né di follie. / Questo è tempo di Dio. / Che aspettiamo? / Quale segno? / Quale miracolo? /…. (Elena Bono, Morte di Adamo)

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Re: Massimiliano - Montana Salish

Postby razlem » 2013-09-07, 4:53

This looks like an impossibly difficult language to learn/pronounce. :shock: I commend you on your efforts.
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Re: Massimiliano - Montana Salish

Postby Lauren » 2013-09-07, 5:30

I guess your orthography is better in the way that you don't need any diacritics, but it is a bit hideous and not at all transparent...
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Re: Massimiliano - Montana Salish

Postby księżycowy » 2013-09-07, 12:05

razlem wrote:This looks like an impossibly difficult language to learn/pronounce. :shock:

Most Salish languages are quite consonant heavy, but that's what makes them so fun. :wink:
þūhte mē þæt ic gesāwe syllicre trēow on lyft lædan lēohte bewunden bēama beorhtost.

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Re: Massimiliano - Montana Salish

Postby Massimiliano B » 2013-09-08, 23:17

razlem wrote:This looks like an impossibly difficult language to learn/pronounce. :shock: I commend you on your efforts.


It's not that difficult to pronounce, once you get acquainted with the specific set of phonemes the Salishan languages are provided.


Lowena wrote:I guess your orthography is better in the way that you don't need any diacritics, but it is a bit hideous and not at all transparent...



My alphabet is just a mere attempt.

Have you got some hints on how to improve it?


księżycowy wrote:Most Salish languages are quite consonant heavy, but that's what makes them so fun. :wink:


In my opinion, only the Wakashan languages, some Athapascan languages, and the Caucasian languages go near the Salishan languages in this respect.
Non è tempo di lutti / né di follie. / Questo è tempo di Dio. / Che aspettiamo? / Quale segno? / Quale miracolo? /…. (Elena Bono, Morte di Adamo)

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Re: Massimiliano - Montana Salish

Postby Lauren » 2013-09-08, 23:29

Massimiliano B wrote:My alphabet is just a mere attempt.

Have you got some hints on how to improve it?

Nope, I think the original is fine the way it is. :)
Last edited by Lauren on 2013-09-09, 0:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Massimiliano - Montana Salish (Séliš)

Postby księżycowy » 2013-09-08, 23:34

I haven't really studied the Wakashan languages, but I definitely do think that the Caucasian languages get pretty close (or some even equal) the Salishan languages. Athabascan I don't see as very consonant heavy, but it's possible.


I've seen that the Interior Salish website has uploaded a few more textbooks, audio and other resources (for Colville-Okanagan Salish to be specific). I might eventually give that a try. Here's hoping that they release a dictionary soon (if they haven't already).
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Re: Massimiliano - Montana Salish (Séliš)

Postby księżycowy » 2013-11-24, 17:40

Not sure if you're still working on Séliš or not anymore Massimiliano, but
I've found two links you might find interesting:
http://www.thesalishinstitute.org/
https://sites.google.com/site/salishlanguage/
The second one is of special notice, as it has some new textbooks! They are modeled after the textbooks for Colville-Okanagan Salish at the Interior Salish Institute.
þūhte mē þæt ic gesāwe syllicre trēow on lyft lædan lēohte bewunden bēama beorhtost.

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Re: Massimiliano - Montana Salish (Séliš)

Postby Massimiliano B » 2013-11-24, 21:21

At the moment I'm not working on Séliš, but I want to restart studying it. I think it's the only American Indigenous language I really like!

I already know the sites you linked. The second is very interesting, because, as you've said, it offers a PDF language course, divided into three parts. The first part is available. I'm impatiently waiting for the other two parts.

Thank you księżycowy!
Last edited by Massimiliano B on 2014-01-26, 2:38, edited 1 time in total.
Non è tempo di lutti / né di follie. / Questo è tempo di Dio. / Che aspettiamo? / Quale segno? / Quale miracolo? /…. (Elena Bono, Morte di Adamo)

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