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ceid donn - Brezhoneg - Page 8 - UniLang

ceid donn - Brezhoneg

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Zviezda
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby Zviezda » 2014-01-31, 18:00

So with ret eo da..., this construction is correct? : Ret eo din mont d'ar stal hiziv


yes that's right
Poent eo... essentially means "it is time to...", right?


yes

Poent eo klask ma dilhad > It is time to gather/collect my clothes


yes. Klask is rather look for, search for (when you don't know where the thing is)

Oc'h evañ dour > here the verb form is the present participle


yes, as in "emaon oc'h evañ dour" = I am drinking water

En un evañ dour > here it is a gerund, right?


first of all, the particle is "en ur" (even before vowels, the "ur" part doesn't change like the article! and it always lenites the initial consonant, even z, unlike the article).
And then, "en ur evañ dour" means "at the same time as drinking water". "en ur" is mainly used to express the 2nd of 2 different actions: labourat en ur ganañ (working and singing at the same time), etc.

Gwelet em eus ur marc'h oc'h evañ dour > I saw a horse (that was) drinking water
Gwelet em eus ur marc'h en un evañ dour > I saw a horse while I was drinking water


exactly, except that it's "en ur evañ" as I said.
"Marc'h" means "stallion" in many places. Horse is usually "loen-kezeg" in Leon, and often "chao" or "jao" in Cornouaille

What are the differences with a-nevez, adarre and c'hoazh? I also came across dija--is that commonly used?


a-nevez often means "recently" (traditional songs often start with "me 'ya da ganañ deoc'h ur sonenn kompozet a-nevez", I'll sing you a song recently composed) and also in sentences like "an ti-se zo bet graet a-nevez", the house has been renovated (made a-new, literally). I don't remember having read or heard it often with the meaning "again".

Adarre means "once again". One can use "en-dro" instead.
C'hoazh means "yet" and "still".
N'eo ket erru c'hoazh = he's not arrived yet.
Emañ aze c'hoazh = he is still there.
"Dija" is rather used to say "already" when talking about your experience (an dra-se 'meus desket dija = I've already learnt that).

ceid donn
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby ceid donn » 2014-02-02, 5:29

Zviezda wrote:first of all, the particle is "en ur" (even before vowels, the "ur" part doesn't change like the article! and it always lenites the initial consonant, even z, unlike the article).


OK, that was my error. Colloquial Breton didn't make that clear so I just assumed it was an indefinite article.

And then, "en ur evañ dour" means "at the same time as drinking water". "en ur" is mainly used to express the 2nd of 2 different actions: labourat en ur ganañ (working and singing at the same time), etc.


This helps clarify what I think Colloquial Breton was trying to explain. :)

Zviezda wrote:a-nevez often means "recently" (traditional songs often start with "me 'ya da ganañ deoc'h ur sonenn kompozet a-nevez", I'll sing you a song recently composed) and also in sentences like "an ti-se zo bet graet a-nevez", the house has been renovated (made a-new, literally). I don't remember having read or heard it often with the meaning "again".

Adarre means "once again". One can use "en-dro" instead.
C'hoazh means "yet" and "still".
N'eo ket erru c'hoazh = he's not arrived yet.
Emañ aze c'hoazh = he is still there.
"Dija" is rather used to say "already" when talking about your experience (an dra-se 'meus desket dija = I've already learnt that).
[/quote]

OK, this is very helpful and clears up the confusion I've been having with these words. Mersi bras!

ceid donn
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby ceid donn » 2014-02-09, 4:32

Ok, I wrote these two sentences in one of the games in theGames forum, but I'm fairly sure I got something wrong with both, so I'm posting them here for corrections:

Yes, but I didn't like it.
Ya, met ne blij ket din hen.

I honestly didn't know what to do there, even though I feel this is a sentence I should be able to construct by now.

The person below me likes to write poetry is a second language.
Skrivañ barzhoniezh en eil yezh a blij d'an den hervezon.

I hope this one isn't too bad. :P

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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby Zviezda » 2014-02-09, 20:47

Yes, but I didn't like it.
Ya, met ne blij ket din hen.


In what context (I'm asking, to be sure of the tense that you need there). Could be either "Ya, met ne blije ket din" or "ya, met n'en deus ket plijet din", depending on the context.
"It" wouldn't be translated, and anyway, grammatically speaking, "it" would be the subject of the verb in Breton, because word for word, the sentence means "Yes, but not (it-)pleased to-me".

I honestly didn't know what to do there, even though I feel this is a sentence I should be able to construct by now.


yes you should, but remember "plijout" is used in a weird way: I like it = it pleases to-me, ie. plijout a ra din, or "eñ/hi a blij din"...

The person below me likes to write poetry is a second language.
Skrivañ barzhoniezh en eil yezh a blij d'an den hervezon.


"hervezon" means "according to me", so it doesn't suit here. Below me or under me is "dindanon".
In a second language = en un eil yezh (en eil yezh = in THE second language).
Remember "yezh" doesn't look to mean "language" in any modern dialect of Breton, people say "langaj" instead. And "barzhoniezh" is a Welsh loanword that only learners know (from books).
People's Breton would use "gwerzennoù" instead (ie. verses).
I'd say:
Skrivañ gwerzennoù en un eil langaj a blij d'an den zo dindanon.
or more natural:
An den zo dindanon a blij dezhañ skrivañ gwerzennoù en un eil langaj. :)

ceid donn
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby ceid donn » 2014-02-09, 23:13

Mersi bras. :D

Zviezda wrote:yes you should, but remember "plijout" is used in a weird way: I like it = it pleases to-me, ie. plijout a ra din, or "eñ/hi a blij din"...



Ok, to my defense I've been very ill for over a week now so I haven't been doing my best. :P But yes, I have studied how you're suppose to use plijout, and what you wrote here makes perfect sense to me as I read it. I just couldn't for the life of me remember that when I was writing it.

Zviezda wrote:In what context (I'm asking, to be sure of the tense that you need there). Could be either "Ya, met ne blije ket din" or "ya, met n'en deus ket plijet din", depending on the context.


The context was answering a question about whether I had seen a certain TV show, and I wanted to say "yes, but I didn't like it". How are those two different? This is something I'm still a little unsure about, the difference between the imperfect form and 'm eus/'z eus/en deus, etc + past participle.

Zviezda wrote:"hervezon" means "according to me", so it doesn't suit here. Below me or under me is "dindanon".
In a second language = en un eil yezh (en eil yezh = in THE second language).
Remember "yezh" doesn't look to mean "language" in any modern dialect of Breton, people say "langaj" instead. And "barzhoniezh" is a Welsh loanword that only learners know (from books).
People's Breton would use "gwerzennoù" instead (ie. verses).
I'd say:
Skrivañ gwerzennoù en un eil langaj a blij d'an den zo dindanon.
or more natural:
An den zo dindanon a blij dezhañ skrivañ gwerzennoù en un eil langaj. :)


OK, this is very helpful. I had forgotten about langaj, and I've seen gwerzennoù before. In my dictionary it only gives barzhoniezh for poetry and barzh for poet. I'm assuming barzh isn't what native speakers would use either, so what would be better word for poet?

That mix-up with hervez and dindan was completely my fault. I have a little trouble keeping these prepositions straight. Hopefully with more reading practice I'll get better with them. :)

And another sentence for you to check :)

An den zo dindanon a ra kanaouennoù da zeskiñ langajoù

The person below me uses songs to learn languages.

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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby Zviezda » 2014-02-10, 22:04

The context was answering a question about whether I had seen a certain TV show, and I wanted to say "yes, but I didn't like it". How are those two different? This is something I'm still a little unsure about, the difference between the imperfect form and 'm eus/'z eus/en deus, etc + past participle.


would be "n'en deus ket plijet din" or in the case of a show (emision or sometimes abadenn, both feminine): n'he deus ket plijet din.
The difference is that "n'he deus ket plijet din" means that you saw it once and you didn't like it.
"Ne blije ket din" is used when your disliking lasts (like: "labourat el lec'h-se ne blije ket din" = working there didn't please to me -- in general, since you worked more than once).
But English isn't as clear on this tense aspect... In French the difference is as in Breton: elle ne m'a pas plu, vs. elle ne me plaisait pas

OK, this is very helpful. I had forgotten about langaj, and I've seen gwerzennoù before. In my dictionary it only gives barzhoniezh for poetry and barzh for poet. I'm assuming barzh isn't what native speakers would use either, so what would be better word for poet?


"Barzh" did exist very long ago but changed meaning and then the word fell out of usage. Now it is mainly known as a family name: Le Barz, Le Barzic, etc. But people, except those who've learnt some Breton in books, don't know what that name means.
Poet can be "poet" (see in Favereau's online dictionary : http://www.arkaevraz.net/dicobzh/index.php ), pronounced as in French. I guess you can also say "gwerzenner" or "saver gwerzennoù" or things like that...

An den zo dindanon a ra kanaouennoù da zeskiñ langajoù
The person below me uses songs to learn languages.


this means "The person who's below me makes songs to learn languages". To say "to use", you need to add the preposition "gant" (=with).
An den zo dindanon a ra gant kanaouennoù da zeskiñ langajoù.
Or better:... evit deskiñ langajoù, instead of "da zeskiñ langajoù".

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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby ceid donn » 2014-02-11, 2:52

Zviezda wrote:would be "n'en deus ket plijet din" or in the case of a show (emision or sometimes abadenn, both feminine): n'he deus ket plijet din.
The difference is that "n'he deus ket plijet din" means that you saw it once and you didn't like it.
"Ne blije ket din" is used when your disliking lasts (like: "labourat el lec'h-se ne blije ket din" = working there didn't please to me -- in general, since you worked more than once).
But English isn't as clear on this tense aspect... In French the difference is as in Breton: elle ne m'a pas plu, vs. elle ne me plaisait pas


OK, I understand now. :) Unfortunately, many English resources for learning French aren't very clear on this difference either. But your explanation does make sense with what I have intuited from reading French and seeing those two forms used in context.

Zviezda wrote:this means "The person who's below me makes songs to learn languages". To say "to use", you need to add the preposition "gant" (=with).
An den zo dindanon a ra gant kanaouennoù da zeskiñ langajoù.
Or better:... evit deskiñ langajoù, instead of "da zeskiñ langajoù".


Oh, OK. Again, my dictionary doesn't mention needing gant for that meaning, but I believe I have read that in one of my textbooks. I knew it didn't look right. :D Also, is there a big difference between da and evit here (besides evit not causing a mutation) or is it more about what is commonly used?

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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby Zviezda » 2014-02-11, 13:30

Oh, OK. Again, my dictionary doesn't mention needing gant for that meaning,


search for "ober" in your dictionary and if it's not too bad, you'll find "ober gant = to use" :)


Also, is there a big difference between da and evit here (besides evit not causing a mutation) or is it more about what is commonly used?


"evit" expresses a purpose, it's stronger than "da".
I don't know if this distinction exists in English, it's like
"I went to Quimper to buy food"
vs.
"I went to Quimper in order to buy food"

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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby Lauren » 2014-09-23, 7:51

I've seen in this thread that the book Central Breton is one of the few (if not only) book in English that doesn't use the artificial Breton language. Are there any books in French that teach Breton as it is actually spoken?
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby Zviezda » 2014-10-03, 21:40

I've seen in this thread that the book Central Breton is one of the few (if not only) book in English that doesn't use the artificial Breton language. Are there any books in French that teach Breton as it is actually spoken?


Selaou Selaou, by Mona Bouzec Cassagnou

by the way, you can listen to native speakers and read along the transcriptions of what they say + a French translation, on this site:

http://banque.sonore.breton.free.fr/

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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby Lauren » 2014-10-03, 22:14

Thanks! The book might be worth getting. What dialect does it teach, though?

Also, how do you use that corpus? I don't know what to search for and I can't just find a list anywhere.
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby Zviezda » 2014-10-22, 13:15

It teaches, roughly, Southeastern Cornouaille Breton. The author is from Riec-sur-Belon.
Now, you can hear people from other places of Cornouaille in the recordings.

Concerning the Banque de Données, there's no list, but if you don't want what to search, can go to the "Recherche" page, type a common letter (say E) in the searching form, the select "contient le mot" in "Portée" and select "français" in "Cible" (most sentences in French contain at least one E!) and then you can choose your commune or département, and you'll get almost all the sentences :)


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