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ceid donn - Brezhoneg - Page 6 - UniLang

ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Moderator: Ciarán12

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Zviezda
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby Zviezda » 2013-01-07, 3:06

I also like Nolwenn Leroy but I wish she did more songs in Breton.


I didn't listen carefully to her but I know she speaks no Breton, so maybe she doesn't pronounce properly (many Breton singers don't speak the language fluently - if at all- so they don't always pronounce properly)

I tried translating them (with the help of the French translation on their blog). :

Lavaroù leun a gasoni am eus klevet
Speeches/words full of hatred (?) I heard


yes, kasoni is hatred

Pa chom levenez em c'halon ganin bepred
When joy remains with me in my heart always

Prezegennoù 'benn hon disrannañ 'deus savet
Speeches (?) to seperate us they make (?)


They (or she?) have/has written speeches to separate us

Met c'hoant bras eskemm am eus en ma spered
But I have a great desire to share (?) in my spirit (?)


yes, eskemm may mean "to share". Nowadays, many learners use "eskemm" to say "to have a chat", copying French "échanger" which means "to have a chat" (that's pseudo-intellectual French). But in Breton, "eskemm" can't mean that...

Gwelet am eus an aon rak an disheñvel
I saw the fear before the different (?)


the fear of the different (actually most of the time you can't use adjectives like nouns in this way, it's a mistake)

Ha teñval o fennoù pa nac'hont-int ar c'hemm
And dark their minds when they refused the change


right. In native Breton, "kemm" rather means "difference".

A-enep d'ar bleizi e vo ma mouezh atav
Against the wolves will be my voice always


my voice will always be against the wolves

D' an emgann outo, o kanañ "no pasaran"
To the fight against them, chanting "no pasaran"


yes

OK, it's not the most elegant translation but I think I understand most of it. I could not figure out what gasoni and savet were exactly and had to rely the French translation.


savet is the past participle of the verb "sevel", which means "to build, to compose (a song, a book...)" etc

350 haiku a oa bet skrivet evit ar festival ar bloaz paseet....

350 haiku have been written for the festival of the passing year....


for the festival last year (there's no link between "ar festival" and "ar bloaz paseet", the latter is only an adverbial phrase)

Ur babig louarn
o c'hoari
en heol.

A little baby fox
is playing
in the sun.


I'm not sure you can use "babig" to talk about young animals in Breton. Looks to me like French... You'd say "ul louarnig" or "ul louarn bihan".

Louarnig flour ha bihan,
O c’hortoz lammat war
Loened pluñv dievezh.

Soft, small, little fox
is waiting to pounce on
careless, plumbed (?) animals


loened pluñv = feathery (?) animals (animals that have feathers)

Skolig al louarn
mintin-mat
kuzh an heol c'hoazh.

The fox's school
early morning
sunset again.


Skolig al louarn = the small school of the fox, which means you go and play in the woods or in nature instead of going to school, I don't know the English word. In French it's "faire l'école buissonnière", to do the school of the bushes

kuzh an heol c'hoazh = (when) the sun (is) still down

Ul loen saoz
ki gouez
ruz e lost, al louarn.

An English beast
wild dog
red his tail, the fox.


ok

Ul louarn-nij
O sellet pizh
Ouzh al lapin gris.

A flying (?) fox
looking greedily
at the gray rabbit.


yeah, a flying fox


E Kreiz an Noz, gant Youenn Gwernig

E kreiz an noz me glev an avel o vlegal war lein an ti
In the middle of the night I hear the wind calling from the house rooftop


in the whole song, it is "o vlejal", not "o vlegal".

Gwernig is from Scaër, but he doesn't sing in Scaër Breton at all, he uses a kind of artificial standard pronunciation, with a few mistakes (especially he pronounces some e's like [e] while they should be [ɛ] or [ə], in reter, sometimes in "avel"...). Maybe he's not used to standard pronunciation (which mixes up several dialectal features). I don't know if he is a native speaker. The song is written in standard Breton too.

Pagan 'n eus lalaet e voned glaz
Pagan put on his blue cap = Sun disappeared into the night


'neus laKaet e voned glaS (lalaet is a typo ; glaz exists but not in the unified spelling you are using).

ceid donn
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby ceid donn » 2013-01-17, 19:23

Trugarez, Zviezda. :D

I'll make the needed corrections to my previous posts tomorrow and then hopefully this weekend, I can post some other work I've been doing.

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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby morlader » 2013-02-02, 18:09

I know colloquial Breton no longer uses the preterite tense, but is it at all still used in modern songs or poetry?
An lavar coth yw lavar gwir:
Na vedn nevra dos vas a davas re hir;
Bes den heb tavas a gollas y dir.
 (kw)

ceid donn
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby ceid donn » 2013-02-03, 1:21

morlader wrote:I know colloquial Breton no longer uses the preterite tense, but is it at all still used in modern songs or poetry?


I'll have to let Zviezda weigh in, since I haven't gotten that far in my own studies of Breton grammar, but there is a tense called amzer dremenet strizh which is translated as past definitive in English grammars and passé simple in French grammars. I don't know how this tense is used, but that it appears in contemporary grammars suggest it is still used somehow, if not in spoken Breton, then perhaps in literary Breton, not unlike passé simple in French.

Both Hemon's grammar and Delaporte's dictionary includes this tense in their verb conjugation tables (although neither offer much in the way of an explanation of its usage) so surely it is deemed still relevant somehow.

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Zviezda
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby Zviezda » 2013-02-03, 16:08

I know colloquial Breton no longer uses the preterite tense, but is it at all still used in modern songs or poetry?


to make it short: the preterite has disappeared in speech (even 150 years ago it was very rare, and only used in traditional storytelling etc).
In the literary written language, you'd very seldom find the preterite tense, and it is mainly the 3rd person singular (in -as). So: learn these forms so that you understand them when you see them. But don't use them.

By the way, I have to say that 99% of the Breton-language contemporary writers are not native speakers and many don't fully master the language (I mean, they think in French), so the language they use isn't representative of what Breton really is. And 99% of the people who read literary texts in Breton aren't native speakers either. Modern Literary Breton, also called unified Breton, is an artificial dialect created by non-native speakers for non-native speakers. If you want to communicate with people who speak genuine Breton, you may start by learning literary Breton but you will have to unlearn (or to modify) quite a lot of things if you want to be understood.

Both Hemon's grammar and Delaporte's dictionary includes this tense in their verb conjugation tables (although neither offer much in the way of an explanation of its usage) so surely it is deemed still relevant somehow.


Hemon and Delaporte (and many others) represent the language of the activists, not what native speakers say. In Hemon's grammar you'll find a few forms that nobody uses nowadays (except learners who have learnt from his books of course).
Unfortunately, most of the learning stuff you can find, in English and also in French, is in that literary Breton. But it's possible to unlearn stuff :) I know at least one book in English that describes Breton as it is spoken by native speakers...

ceid donn
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby ceid donn » 2013-02-03, 17:19

Trugarez, Zviezda. That actually makes sense to me.

Zviezda wrote: I know at least one book in English that describes Breton as it is spoken by native speakers...


Which book is this?

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Zviezda
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby Zviezda » 2013-02-03, 19:19

Central Breton, by Iwan Wmffre, edited by Lincom Europa.
I'll tell more about it in a PM :)

ceid donn
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby ceid donn » 2013-02-04, 16:18

OK, I have a question about the phonetic transcription Wmffre uses:

He's using broad transcription apparently, as he uses ⟨ɣ⟩ for the uvular fricative r sound. In Oulpan this is marked with the IPA symbol ⟨ʁ⟩. But I want to make sure I'm not assuming too much by thinking this is the same sound.

Oulpan is standard Breton, correct? And in standard Breton the ⟨ʁ⟩ is pretty much the same as the French ⟨ʁ⟩, right?

Now in central Breton, is this the same sound as in standard Brteon, or is ⟨ɣ⟩ a little different, such as trilled?

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Zviezda
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby Zviezda » 2013-02-04, 22:02

He's using broad transcription apparently, as he uses ⟨ɣ⟩ for the uvular fricative r sound. In Oulpan this is marked with the IPA symbol ⟨ʁ⟩. But I want to make sure I'm not assuming too much by thinking this is the same sound.


I guess if Wmffre uses the ɣ symbol it's because his dialect really uses that sound (Wmffre is a native speaker of Central Breton, his mother is Breton and his father is Welsh).

Oulpan is standard Breton, correct? And in standard Breton the ⟨ʁ⟩ is pretty much the same as the French ⟨ʁ⟩, right?


Oulpan is in standard Breton but in general its vocabulary (apart from coined words) and pronunciation are from Eastern Cornouaille, more or less. The grammar is standard (except when the author gives "spoken forms").
The ʁ is the sound of standard French r.

Now in central Breton, is this the same sound as in standard Brteon, or is ⟨ɣ⟩ a little different, such as trilled?


the ɣ is a but further forward in the mouth, it's not trilled, it's a fricative. But I think you can replace that sound by the ʁ because many speakers from that area pronounce that way.

ceid donn
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby ceid donn » 2013-02-04, 23:10

Zviezda wrote:
the ɣ is a but further forward in the mouth, it's not trilled, it's a fricative. But I think you can replace that sound by the ʁ because many speakers from that area pronounce that way.


Ok, this perhaps explains something that has confused me a bit:

When I listen to recordings of native speakers, I sometimes don't hear what I was originally taught was a French ⟨ʁ⟩. This is what was confusing me. What you say about it being a sound voiced further forward makes sense because what I often hear, or think I'm hearing, is the fricative sound that's common in Gàidhlig in words with dh- followed by a broad vowel--it too is a fricative voiced further forward in the mouth. I just checked in Michael Bauer's Blas na Gàidhlig and he indeed uses ɣ for that fricative (the "dha" sound, we call it).

This makes things much easier for me. Despite all my years studying French, I never could master that very guttural r that I was taught was the "proper" French r (my college French teacher was Parisian--this was what he insisted was the correct pronunciation). The Gàidhlig "dha" sound is much easier for me, and if that's an acceptable rhotic allophone in Breton, that makes me quite happy. :)

ceid donn
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby ceid donn » 2013-02-09, 21:39

Two quick questions:

What is the more common pronunciation of "hiziv"? I keep hearing different pronunciations--or at least I think that I am.

If I wanted to say "The wind is blowing", would I say "An avel a zo o c'hwezh" or would "An avel a c'hwezh" be preferable?

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Zviezda
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby Zviezda » 2013-02-10, 0:14

The pronunciation of "today" changes a lot throughout Lower Brittany, see the linguistic atlas:
http://sbahuaud.free.fr/ALBB/Kartenn-326.jpg
(the print isn't always good): herio, hirio, hidi, hidif, hiri, hicho, hio, chiou, hiniù, hirie, hiziù... etc etc... :)

Many people say ['(h)iʁjo]...

"the wind is blowing" is "an avel zo o c'hwezhañ" (you can change the word order: ema an avel o c'hwezhañ...). If you say "an avel a c'hwezh", it means "the wind blows" (in general).

ceid donn
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby ceid donn » 2013-02-10, 17:09

Wow, that's quite a lot of variance. :shock: I can remember ['(h)iʁjo] at least--that's how one of the speakers in the Oulpan recordings says it.

I knew that first sentence I wrote didn't look right. Trugarez!

****

OK, one of my goals for Breton is to finish working through BBHA before summer. I am working through Kentel 13 right now and it goes over the present habitual tense, which Ymffre talks a lot about in his book. Here's the goulennoù & poelladennoù for Kentel 13:

Yen eo an amzer hiziv? Ya, yen eo.
Is the weather cold today? Yes, it is.

Yen e vez an amzer en hañv? Ne vez ket : tomm e vez an amzer en hañv.
Is the weather cold in the summer? No : the weather is warm in the summer.

Pegoulz e vez yen an amzer? Er goañv e vez yen an amzer.
When is the weather cold? The weather is cold in the winter.

Pelec'h emaoc'h bremañ? Er skol emaon.
Where are you now? I am at the school.

Pelec'h e vezit bemdez o tebriñ koan? Er gêr e vezan.
Where do you eat dinner everyday? I am at home (would simply saying "At home" be a better translation?)

Piv a vez alies o c'hoari? Ar vugale a vez alies o c'hoari.
Who is often playing? The children are often playing.

Mouar a gavit mat? Ya, mouar a gavan mat.
Do you like blackberries? Yes, i like blackberries.

Pet mouarenn a zo war an daol? Div, teir, peder! N'eus ket kalz.
How many blackberries are on the table? Two, three, four! There is not a lot.

Pet panerad avaloù a zo amañ ganit? O, ur banerad hepken.
How many basketful of apples do you have here? Oh, only a basketful.

Pelec'h e vezomp bemdez o labourat? Er skol e vezomp bemdez o labourat.
Where do we work everyday? We work everyday in the school.

Pelec'h e vezer alies en hañv? War an aod e vezer alies.
Where is one often in the summer? One is often on the sea-front.

Poell. 1 - Complete sentences with a zo, eo, a vez or e vez as required:

Piv a zo tont bremañ?
Avel a zo hiziv.
Piv a vez atav diwezhat?
Glav e vez en diskar-amzer.
Alies e vez krampouezh da zebriñ du-mañ.
Krampouezh a zo wr an daol ; debrit unan!
Ne vez morse skuizh o labourat.
N' eo ket brav an amzer hiziv.
Petra zo ganeoc'h c'hoazh en ho chakod?
Petra vez atav gant ar vugale en o chakodoù?

Poell. 2 - Complete sentences with emañ or e vez as required:

Pelec'h emañ ma c'hazh bremañ?
Pelec'h e vez alies ar c'hazh o kousket?
C'hoant am eus da lenn ma levr : pelec'h emañ?
Pelec'h e vez gwerzhet levrioù?
Mont a ran da welout ma zad : pelec'h emañ e vag?

Poell. 3 - Compete sentences with (ez) eus or (e) vez as required:

N'eus levr ebet war an daol hiziv.
Du-mañ ez eus ur c'hazh kozh.
Ne vez morse levr ebet gantañ.
En e di ez eus tri den o c'hortoz.
War ar maez e vez atav kalz loened.

Poell. 4 - Use alies instead hiziv and change the sentence accordingly:

Skuizh on hiziv. > Skuizh e vezan alies.
Berr out hiziv gant an arc'hant. > Berr e vezez alies gant an arc'hant.
Imoret-fall oc'h hiziv. > Imoret-fall e vezit alies.
N'eur ket abred hiziv o tont d'ar gêr. > Ne vezer abred alies o tont d'ar gêr.
N'oc'h ket laouen hiziv. > Ne vezit ket laouen alies.
Hiziv omp diwezhat, > Alies e vezomp diwezhat.
N'eus ket glav hiziv. > Ne vez ket glav alies.
Ker int hiziv. > Ker e vezont alies.
N'oc'h ket fur hiziv. > Ne vezit ket fur alies.
Trist eur hiziv. > Trist e vezer alies.

Poell. 5 - Use bemdez instead of bremañ and change the sentence accordingly:

Er gêr emaon bremañ o labourat. > Er gêr e vezan bemdez o labourat.
Brav emaomp amañ bremañ. > Brav e vezomp amañ bemdez.
N'emeur ket bremañ o c'hortoz ar glav da zont. > Ne vezer ket bemdez o c'hortoz ar glav da zont.
Pelec'h emaoc'h bremañ o redek? > Pelec'h e vezit bemdez o redek?
Bremañ emaint oc'h evañ banneoù. > Bemdez e vezont oc'h evañ banneoù.

Poell. 6 - Instead of the collective noun, use the corresponding singulative form:

frouezh > Debret he deus ur frouezhenn gaer.
geot, krampouezh > Ur c'heotenn a 'o war ar grampouezhenn!
gwer > Ur wezenn vras a zo e liorzh (jardin :P ) ma zad.
per > Ur berenn vat en deus debret.
koumoul > Ur goumoulenn a zo en oabl.

Poell. 7 - For this poelladenn I have to use the -ad suffix with the singular noun. Hopefully I won't make too big of a mess of this! :P

tud, iliz > Un iliziad tud a oa o selaou.
bugale, ti > Un tiad bugale he doa da sevel.
avaloù, baner > Degaset he doa un banerad avaloù.
Bleunioù, liorzh > Ul liorzhad bleunioù a oa dirak he zi.
poelladennoù, kaier > Skrivet en doa ur c'haierad poelladennoù.

*** Would Breton speakers say "ur jardinad"? I'm also confused on the singular form for flower. Both "bleunioù" and "bleuñv" mean "flowers", right? So the singular is "bleunienn"?

Thanks to Zviezda for corrections. :)
Last edited by ceid donn on 2013-02-11, 4:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Zviezda
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby Zviezda » 2013-02-11, 2:49

Poell. 1 - Complete sentences with a zo, eo, a vez or e vez as required:

Piv eo o tont bremañ?


Piv a zo (because the subject is "piv" and it's before the verb)

Poell. 2 - Complete sentences with emañ or e vez as required:

Pelec'h emañ ma c'hazh bremañ?
Pelec'h e vez alies ar c'hazh o kousket?
C'hoant am eus da lenn ma levr : pelec'h emañ?
Pelec'h a vez gwerzhet levrioù?


pelec'h e vez...


Poell. 3 - Compete sentences with (ez) eus or (e) vez as required:

N'eus levr ebet war an daol hiziv.
Du-mañ e vez ur c'hazh kozh.


Du-mañ ez eus ur c'hazh kozh (or: du-mañ zo ur c'hazh kozh, in many dialects)

Ne vez morse levr ebet gantañ.
En e di ez eus tri den o c'hortoz.
War ar maez a vez atav kalz loened.


e vez atav

Poell. 4 - Use alies instead hiziv and change the sentence accordingly:

Skuizh on hiziv. > Skuizh e vezan alies.
Berr out hiziv gant an arc'hant. > Berr e verez alies gant an arc'hant.


e veZez

Poell. 6 - Instead of the collective noun, use the corresponding singulative form:

frouezh > Debret he deus ur frouezhenn kaer.


ur frouezhenn gaer (frouezhenn is feminine and ends with n)

geot, krampouezh > Ur c'heotenn a 'o war ar c'hrampouezhenn!


war ar grampouezhenn

gwer > Ur c'hwezenn bras a zo e liorzh (jardin :P ) ma zad.


be careful, gw- and goue/goui changes to w- and oue/oui ; g changes to c'h in other cases.
so: ur wezenn vras...

per > Ur berenn mat en deus debret.


ur berenn vat

kounmoul > Ur gounmoulenn a zo en oabl.


koumoul > koumoulenn (there's no n after ou)

Poell. 7 - For this poelladenn I have to use the -ad suffix with the singular noun. Hopefully I won't make too big of a mess of this! :P


you've used the singular after the word in -ad everytime, while you have to use the plural:

tud, iliz > Un iliziad tud a oa o selaou.
bugale, ti > Un tiad bugale he doa da sevel.
avaloù, baner > Degaset he doa un banerad avaloù.
Bleunioù, liorzh > Ul liorzhad bleunioù a oa dirak he zi. ***
poelladennoù, kaier > Skrivet en doa ur c'haierad poelladennoù.

Btw this sentence is strange: Bleunioù, liorzh > Ul liorzhad bleunioù a oa dirak he zi. *** (not your fault), what is called liorzh is a small field or a garden where you grow vegetables for yourself. A liorzh has no decorative flowers. And anyway, "bleunioù" are trees' flowers, they aren't decorative flowers that grow directly in the soil. The author might not know the difference between bleunioù and fleur/bokedoù, and uses liorzh to avoid the French loanword "jardin", although jardin and liorzh are two different things... Many activists use "liorzh" instead of jardin because it's French, but don't know liorzh and jardin are different things. *sigh* Making Breton poorer and without shades of meaning for stupid political reasons...

*** Would Breton speakers say "ur jardinad"? I'm also confused on the singular form for flower. Both "bleunioù" and "bleuñv" mean "flowers", right? So the singular is "bleunienn"?


yes, in standard Breton it's bleunienn. And "jardinad" is possible. Everytime something is full of something else, you can use -(i)ad. It's like "a gardenful (of flowers)", etc :) I don't know if you can say that in English :)

ceid donn
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby ceid donn » 2013-02-11, 4:47

Zviezda wrote:Piv a zo (because the subject is "piv" and it's before the verb)


Oh, yes. Of course. I got confused with "Piv eo?" when "eo" contains the subject.

Zviezda wrote:Du-mañ ez eus ur c'hazh kozh (or: du-mañ zo ur c'hazh kozh, in many dialects)


OK. Over here is an old cat. Yes. I must have confused du-mañ with another word when I read that.

Some of these other mistakes are simply my bad typing, but with ar grampouezh/ur wezenn I just flat-out got mixed up on which mutation to use, and of course, forget to mutate the adjective for the feminine nouns. I'll get the hang of this eventually! :P (also good to know about goue/goui > oue/oui--I don't think this book has mentioned that yet)

But this I get to blame on the book:

Zviezda wrote:koumoul > koumoulenn (there's no n after ou)


That's a typo in the book. I had written it first as koumoulenn but then looked at the book, which said kounmoul, so I changed it without thinking of double-checking it in the dictionary. I remember thinking kounmoul did not look right!

Zviezda wrote:you've used the singular after the word in -ad everytime, while you have to use the plural:

tud, iliz > Un iliziad tud a oa o selaou.
bugale, ti > Un tiad bugale he doa da sevel.
avaloù, baner > Degaset he doa un banerad avaloù.
Bleunioù, liorzh > Ul liorzhad bleunioù a oa dirak he zi. ***
poelladennoù, kaier > Skrivet en doa ur c'haierad poelladennoù.


Wow, I really screwed that up. :oops: Well, hopefully I won't make that mistake again.

Zviezda wrote:Btw this sentence is strange: Bleunioù, liorzh > Ul liorzhad bleunioù a oa dirak he zi. *** (not your fault), what is called liorzh is a small field or a garden where you grow vegetables for yourself. A liorzh has no decorative flowers. And anyway, "bleunioù" are trees' flowers, they aren't decorative flowers that grow directly in the soil. The author might not know the difference between bleunioù and fleur/bokedoù, and uses liorzh to avoid the French loanword "jardin", although jardin and liorzh are two different things... Many activists use "liorzh" instead of jardin because it's French, but don't know liorzh and jardin are different things. *sigh* Making Breton poorer and without shades of meaning for stupid political reasons...


Understandable. Such politics aren't really very helpful for learning the language, so I'm happy to sidestep them myself. :P The distinctions between liorzh and jardin, and bleunioùand fleur is very helpful. "Boked" is like a flowering plant that you could plant in a flower garden (jardin) or in a pot, correct?

Zviezda wrote:s, in standard Breton it's bleunienn. And "jardinad" is possible. Everytime something is full of something else, you can use -(i)ad. It's like "a gardenful (of flowers)", etc :) I don't know if you can say that in English :)


In English, it's inconsistent the way English is prone to be. A few are very common, like plateful, armful or handful. Some others are considered standard English but not used often enough for many people to be familiar with: houseful, basketful, pocketful, gardenful. But others aren't considered standard or "good" English for no reason except English speakers don't like them and won't use them, like schoolful, churchful, closetful, drawerful (even my English spellcheck is telling me those are wrong!). But there's no grammatical reason why in English you can't use -ful as liberally as -ad in Breton. It's just that English speakers are notoriously fussy and often times if they don't like the sound of something, they think it's "bad" English. :roll:

BTW, when I went back to corrected my mistakes, i noticed you had written this: iliz > Un iliziad. What is the rule for iliz adding -iad and not simply -ad? Because this wasn't mentioned in the book.

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morlader
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby morlader » 2013-02-11, 13:06

In Breton do feminine nouns always cause mutation of a following adjective/noun, no matter what it is?

In Cornish it's open to debate. The feminine 'kresen' means 'centre' but there is a Cornish studies library in Cornwall known as 'Kresen Kernow' (instead of Gernow). I was just wondering if the rule is more strictly applied in Breton.
An lavar coth yw lavar gwir:
Na vedn nevra dos vas a davas re hir;
Bes den heb tavas a gollas y dir.
 (kw)

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Zviezda
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby Zviezda » 2013-02-11, 13:39

Understandable. Such politics aren't really very helpful for learning the language, so I'm happy to sidestep them myself. :P The distinctions between liorzh and jardin, and bleunioùand fleur is very helpful. "Boked" is like a flowering plant that you could plant in a flower garden (jardin) or in a pot, correct?


yes

BTW, when I went back to corrected my mistakes, i noticed you had written this: iliz > Un iliziad. What is the rule for iliz adding -iad and not simply -ad? Because this wasn't mentioned in the book.


normally when a noun has a plural in -ioù, the "content suffix" is -iad. When it's "-où" it's "-ad".

In Breton do feminine nouns always cause mutation of a following adjective/noun, no matter what it is?


no, after the feminine singular, in speech adjectives with g and m often don't mutate, and k t and p only change after L M N R V or a vowel. You say ur vaouez vrav but ur vaouez kaer, ur wezenn vrav and ur wezenn gaer.

Nouns don't change as often as adjectives, it depends on several things and it's not always consistent.

In Cornish it's open to debate. The feminine 'kresen' means 'centre' but there is a Cornish studies library in Cornwall known as 'Kresen Kernow' (instead of Gernow). I was just wondering if the rule is more strictly applied in Breton.


No, in Breton it's not applied consistently, actually. It's complicated. Literary Breton makes loads of mutations in this case, that native speakers don't do. Simply because Literary Breton is used by learners who find it simpler to make systematic mutations, regardless of what native speakers would say.
By the way, isn't "kresen" a Breton loanword? (which is itself a coined word that native speakers don't use -- nor understand maybe)
It's a pity Cornish looks to have borrowed many (technical) words from Breton as if they were all reliable...

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morlader
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby morlader » 2013-02-11, 15:51

'Kres' is an attested Cornish word but it's likely that 'kresen' was borrowed from Breton. Many Cornish speakers look to Breton because they see it as a more "complete" Celtic language, without realising that many words are actually modern coinages by non-native speakers. But since there are no native Cornish speakers to argue against it, it looks set to become how the language will develop.
An lavar coth yw lavar gwir:
Na vedn nevra dos vas a davas re hir;
Bes den heb tavas a gollas y dir.
 (kw)

ceid donn
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby ceid donn » 2013-02-14, 5:35

Ok, I usually don't do this last poelladenn because it's hard to come up with stuff with my limited Breton vocabulary, but I think I need start doing it from now on--

Poell. 8. Come up with 10 questions and the answers for them:

1. Yen e vez an amzer alies amañ? Ne vez ket. Tomm e vez an amzer alies amañ.
2. Pegeit e pado ho vakañsoù? Ur pemzektez bennak e padint.
3. Pet perenn a zo amañ ganit? Teir fanerad per a zo ganin.
4. N'eus ket peder gwezenn el liorzh-se? Nann, n'eus ken 'met div wezenn el liorzh-se.
5. Pelec'h e vezez bemdez o tebriñ lein? Er gêr e vezan alies o tebriñ lein met hiziv e oan o tebriñ lein en ostaleri e kreiz-kêr.
6. Pelec'h e vezit bremañ o labourat? Er skol e vezan o labourat.
7. Kalz avaloù-douar e brenez? Ne ran ket. Ne gavan ket mat avaloù-douar.
8. Pet c'hoar he doa da vamm? Div c'hoar he doa ma mamm.
9. Pet c'hoar he doa da dad? Peder c'hoar en doa ma zad.
10. Brav e vo an amzer warc'hoazh? Me n'ouzon ket. Ne vez ket brav alies e miz C'hwevrer.

For some listening, I watched this video today, and was actually able to understand some of the words! :D : Manifestadeg evit un tele brezhonek

Corrections thanks to Zviezda. :)
Last edited by ceid donn on 2013-02-14, 19:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Zviezda
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Re: ceid donn - Brezhoneg

Postby Zviezda » 2013-02-14, 13:47

2. Pegeit ho vakañsoù padint? Ur pemzektez bennak e badint.


Pegeit e pado ho vakañsoù? - Ur pemzektez bennak e padint.

4. N'eus ket pevar gwezenn d'al liorzh-se? Nann, n'eus ket. Daou gwezenn a zo hepken d'al liorzh-se.


N'eus ket peder gwezenn (feminine) el liorzh-se? Nann, n'eus ket. Div wezenn hepken a zo el liorzh-se (but normally people say "n'eus ken 'met div wezenn el liorzh-se")

5. Pelec'h e vezez bemdez o tebriñ lein? Ar gêr e vezan alies o tebriñ lein met hiziv oan o tebriñ lein d'ar kafedi e kreiz-kêr.


Er gêr e vezan... met hiziv e oan o tebriñ lein er c'hafedi e kreiz-kêr.
("Kafedi" is a coined word, everybody says tavarn or ostaleri etc, I wonder why someone invented "kafedi", which isn't natural at all)

6. Pelec'h e vezit bremañ o labourat? D'ar skol e vezan o labourat.


Er skol e vezan o labourat.
(d'ar skol is used with verbs of motion. It's "to (the) school", while "at school/in the school" is "er skol")

7. Kalz avaloù-douar e vezez o prenañ? Ne vezan ket. Ne kavan ket mat avaloù-douar.


Kalz avaloù-douar a vezez o prenañ? (but it doesn't sound natural, nor the question, you'd use the simple present: kalz avaloù-douar a brenez?) Ne vezan ket. (Ne brenan ket/ne ran ket)
Ne gavan ket mat avaloù-douar.


8. Pet c'haor he doa da vamm? Div c'haor he doa ma mamm.


div c'hoar ;)

9. Pet c'haor he doa da dad? Peder c'hoar he doa ma zad.


Pet c'hoar en doa da dad? (he doa = when the subject is feminine) Peder c'hoar en doa ma zad.

10. Brav e vo an amzer warc'hoazh? Me n'ouzon ket. Ne vez ket alies brav e C'hwevrer.


I'd say "Ne vez ket brav alies e (miz) C'hwevrer"

For some listening, I watched this video today, and was actually able to understand some of the words! :D :


gourc'hemennoù deoc'h!


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