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Gaeilge - ciaran1212 - Page 2 - UniLang

Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Moderator: Ciarán12

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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2012-08-22, 17:29

Ciarán12 wrote:'An bhean a cheapann gur fíor é' (Díreach, Dearfach, Aimsir Láithreach)

'An bhean a cheap gurbh fhíor é' (Díreach, Dearfach, Aimsir Chaite)

'An bhean ar cheap a deirfiúr gur fíor é' (Indíreach, Dearfach, Aimsir Láithreach)

'An bhean ar cheap a deirfiúr gurbh fhíor é' (Indíreach, Dearfach, Aimsir Chaite)

'An bhean nach gceapann gur fíor é' (Díreach, Diúltach, Aimsir Láithreach)

'An bhean nach gceapann a deirfiúr gur fíor é' (Indíreach, Diúltach, Aimsir Láithreach)

'An bhean nár cheap gurbh fhíor é' (Díreach, Diúltach, Aimsir Chaite)

'An bhean nár cheap a deirfiúr gurbh fhíor é' (Indíreach, Diúltach, Aimsir Chaite)

Tá brón orm ná bím níos ullaimhe chun cabhair a thabhairt duit sa lá atá inniu ann. Tá m'aire tarraingthe go háiteanna eile i láthair na huaire, déanta na fírinne.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-09-10, 23:35

A Linguoboy a chara, tá ceist agam faoin ceartúchán atá déanta agat ar m'abairt ar an snáithe seo.

M'abairtse:

"An gceapann tú gur chóir dom scríobh mo foilsiúcháin as Gaeilge..."

Do cheartúcháin:

"An gceapann tú gur chóir dom m'fhoilsiúcháin a scríobh as Gaeilge"

Tuigim cad é an scéal leis an athrú "mo foilsiúcháin" > "m'fhoilsiúcháin", ach is rud beagán mearbhallach é an t-athrú "gur chóir dom scríobh (rud éigin) " > "gur chóir dom (rud éiigin) a scríobh" dar liom.

Cad iad na rialacha maidir leis sin? An bhfuil cásanna ar bith ann nuair atá sé i gceart chun briathar a chur díreach tar éis frása éigin réamhfhoclach (frása a bhfuil réamhfhocal i ndeireadh aige)? Nach bhfuil sé sin ceart ach nuair atá briathar le réamhfhocal i gceist?
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2012-09-11, 16:37

Ciarán12 wrote:Cad iad na rialacha maidir leis sin? An bhfuil cásanna ar bith ann nuair atáina bhfuili gceart chun briathar a chur díreach tar éis frása éigin réamhfhoclach (frása a bhfuil réamhfhocal i ndeireadh aige)? Nach bhfuil sé sin ceart ach nuair atá briathar le réamhfhocal i gceist?

Ní hionann briathar agus ainm briathartha. Ní leanann ainmfhocal spleách ainm briathartha ach tá sé sa thuiseal ginideach. E.g., a scríobh m'fhoilsiúchán = chun m'fhoilsiúcháin a scríobh. Agus is annamh comhlánaigh ainmneacha briathartha sa thuiseal ginideach sa nua-Ghaelainn lasmuigh de Ghaelainn na Mumhan.
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2012-09-11, 20:01

A dictionary I have gives the sample phrase "tá éagsúlacht mhór iontu" - "they vary considerably". I considered "athrú", and I suppose it works just fine there. But the Irish Wikipedia gives "leathanach fánach" for "random article (random page)", and "fánach","corr" and "randamach" all come up in the dictionary for "random". How is "fánach" used then?

Fánach has a broader range of meaning. Go fánach means not just "at random" but also "casually". Randamach is a better fit for technical/scientific uses, which I believe this is.

Googling éagsúlacht fhánach (baininscneach, ná déan dearmad!) or randamach produced no hits; Googling athrú randamach did, so that's why I went with it. Éagsúlacht seems to be used more commonly to translated "diversity" (e.g. éagsúlacht tuairime "diversity/divergence of opinion") than "variation" at any rate.
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-09-11, 20:13

linguoboy wrote:
A dictionary I have gives the sample phrase "tá éagsúlacht mhór iontu" - "they vary considerably". I considered "athrú", and I suppose it works just fine there. But the Irish Wikipedia gives "leathanach fánach" for "random article (random page)", and "fánach","corr" and "randamach" all come up in the dictionary for "random". How is "fánach" used then?

Fánach has a broader range of meaning. Go fánach means not just "at random" but also "casually". Randamach is a better fit for technical/scientific uses, which I believe this is.


Okay, I didn't know that.

linguoboy wrote: éagsúlacht fhánach (baininscneach, ná déan dearmad!)


That's another can of worms right there. At the moment I'm trying to get a grip on the initial mutations in nouns, so I haven't gotten to adjectives yet. I assume then that adjectives modifying feminine nouns lenite (although, knowing Irish, it's probably not that simple, right?).

linguoboy wrote:Éagsúlacht seems to be used more commonly to translated "diversity" (e.g. éagsúlacht tuairime "diversity/divergence of opinion") than "variation" at any rate.


I'll keep that in mind, GRMA!
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2012-09-11, 20:23

Ciarán12 wrote:That's another can of worms right there. At the moment I'm trying to get a grip on the initial mutations in nouns, so I haven't gotten to adjectives yet. I assume then that adjectives modifying feminine nouns lenite (although, knowing Irish, it's probably not that simple, right?).

Of course it's not that simple! This rule holds for (a) singular feminine nouns except in the (b) genitive case. So éagsúlacht mhór but éagsúlachta móire.

(In general, there is no lenition in the plural, but it depends on the declension of the noun.)
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-09-11, 20:41

linguoboy wrote:Of course it's not that simple!


LOL, there we go, there's the good ol' finicky Irish I know and love! :P

linguoboy wrote:This rule holds for (a) singular feminine nouns except in the (b) genitive case. So éagsúlacht mhór but éagsúlachta móire.

(In general, there is no lenition in the plural, but it depends on the declension of the noun.)


Do you mean that that rule holds true for adjectives describing (a) singular feminine nouns except in the (b) genitive case, or the nouns themselves?

If the former, would it then be:
Masculine - "teach mór", "tithe móra", "bean an tí mór"
Feminine - "cathaoir mhór", "cathaoireacha mór", "cúl na cathaoireach móire"
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2012-09-11, 20:54

Ciarán12 wrote:If the former, would it then be:
Masculine - "teach mór", "tithe móra", "bean an tí mór"

This should be either bean an tí mhóir ("woman of the big house") or bean an tí mhór ("big housewife").

Ciarán12 wrote:Feminine - "cathaoir mhór", "cathaoireacha mór"

cathaoireacha móra (Nom. pl. always takes an ending unless the adjective is indeclinable.)
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-09-11, 21:15

:? My lack of having studied adjectives is showing...

linguoboy wrote:This should be either bean an tí mhóir ("woman of the big house") or bean an tí mhór ("big housewife").


Now this I really find confusing. For one, I would have thought the adjective in the later would have gone after "bean". Secondly, am I to assume that the difference between "mhóir" and "mhór" is in which noun-gender it is used for, thus differentiating it based on the fact that "bean" in feminine and and "teach" is masculine? But If that was the case, wouldn't one of them not be lenited, given that that only happens to feminine singular nouns? And does this mean that adjectives describing masculine nouns are slenderised? Ans also, how would they be differentiated if both nouns in the phrase were the same gender?

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:Feminine - "cathaoir mhór", "cathaoireacha mór"

cathaoireacha móra (Nom. pl. always takes an ending unless the adjective is indeclinable.)


How do I know which ending it takes?
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2012-09-11, 21:33

Ciarán12 wrote::
linguoboy wrote:This should be either bean an tí mhóir ("woman of the big house") or bean an tí mhór ("big housewife").


Now this I really find confusing. For one, I would have thought the adjective in the later would have gone after "bean".

Except that bean an tí is a compound in much the same way that "housewife" is in English.

Ciarán12 wrote:Secondly, am I to assume that the difference between "mhóir" and "mhór" is in which noun-gender it is used for, thus differentiating it based on the fact that "bean" in feminine and and "teach" is masculine? But If that was the case, wouldn't one of them not be lenited, given that that only happens to feminine singular nouns?

I never said that it only happens to adjectives modifying feminine nouns. You didn't ask me what the rules were for masculine nouns.

Ciarán12 wrote:And does this mean that adjectives describing masculine nouns are slenderised?

Only in the genitive singular (where they are also lenited) and not for all adjectives. So, for instance, bean an fhir mhóir but bean an fhir fhionn (not *fhinn).

Ciarán12 wrote:Ans also, how would they be differentiated if both nouns in the phrase were the same gender?

You mean if both nouns were in the genitive case?

Ciarán12 wrote:How do I know which ending it takes?

In general, adjectives ending in a broad consonant take -a and those ending in a slender consonant take -e. The chief class of exceptions are adjectives ending in -úil, which becomes -úla in the nominative plural (paralleling what happens in the comparative form).
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-09-11, 22:12

linguoboy wrote:Except that bean an tí is a compound in much the same way that "housewife" is in English.


Okay, is that the case for all such genitive constructions or is it just bean an tí? If it were another phrase would it be correct to place the adjective after the first noun of the construction? E.g. "cathaoir na mban mhór" vs "cathaoir mhór na mban"?

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:Secondly, am I to assume that the difference between "mhóir" and "mhór" is in which noun-gender it is used for, thus differentiating it based on the fact that "bean" in feminine and and "teach" is masculine? But If that was the case, wouldn't one of them not be lenited, given that that only happens to feminine singular nouns?

I never said that it only happens to adjectives modifying feminine nouns. You didn't ask me what the rules were for masculine nouns.


Okay, what are the rules for masculine nouns?

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:And does this mean that adjectives describing masculine nouns are slenderised?

Only in the genitive singular (where they are also lenited) and not for all adjectives. So, for instance, bean an fhir mhóir but bean an fhir fhionn (not *fhinn).


I see. Are there many such exceptions?

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:Ans also, how would they be differentiated if both nouns in the phrase were the same gender?

You mean if both nouns were in the genitive case?


No, but that's a good question too. I'm vaguely aware of a rule about two genitives coming after each other in Irish and how the first is actually in the nominative but takes the appropriate initial mutations and the second is in the genitive. Or something like that...maybe(?).

What I actually meant was something like the phrase I gave above "cathaoir na mban mhór". I was under the impression that "bean an tí mhór" and "bean an tí mhóir" showed that, regardless of which noun the adjective was describing, the adjective must come after the second noun in such a (genitive) construction, and that in that particular instance the differentiation between whether it was the house that was big or the woman that was big was by marking the adjective for gender (as in this case the nouns were different genders). So I was wondering how the distinction would be made if both nouns were of the same gender, as in "cathaoir na mban mhór" (does the "mhór" describe the "cathaoir" or the "bean"?).

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:How do I know which ending it takes?

In general, adjectives ending in a broad consonant take -a and those ending in a slender consonant take -e. The chief class of exceptions are adjectives ending in -úil, which becomes -úla in the nominative plural (paralleling what happens in the comparative form).


Okay, that seems clear enough.
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2012-10-08, 17:25

Ciarán12 wrote:B'fhéidir go mbeadh sé níos éasca dá mbeadh níos mó daoine ann chun í a chleachtadh leí, áfach.

I've underlined this last bit because it seems problematic to me. At the very least, the resumptive pronoun should be leo to agree with daoine, on'dydynach ea? But Irish verb-noun phrases aren't as flexible as English infinitive clauses and I wonder if it even licences ones along these lines or whether it should really be a relative clause instead.

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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-10-08, 21:37

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:B'fhéidir go mbeadh sé níos éasca dá mbeadh níos mó daoine ann chun í a chleachtadh leí, áfach.

I've underlined this last bit because it seems problematic to me. At the very least, the resumptive pronoun should be leo to agree with daoine, on'dydynach ea? But Irish verb-noun phrases aren't as flexible as English infinitive clauses and I wonder if it even licences ones along these lines or whether it should really be a relative clause instead.


I understand about the 'leí' -> 'leo' change, that's pretty basic, I must have mistyped. So you would have used an expression along the lines of "dá mbeadh níos mó daoine a raibh mé in ann í a chleachtadh leo"? Is it just that it sounds strange and clunky (and you can't put your finger on what rule is being broken)?

linguoboy wrote:Tá fíor-shaineolaí uainn anso!


Aontaím, ach níl ach tusa agus mise ann i láthair na huaire. Cá bhfuil na Gaeilgeoirí nuair atá siad uainn?
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2012-10-08, 21:54

Ciarán12 wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:B'fhéidir go mbeadh sé níos éasca dá mbeadh níos mó daoine ann chun í a chleachtadh leí, áfach.

I've underlined this last bit because it seems problematic to me. At the very least, the resumptive pronoun should be leo to agree with daoine, on'dydynach ea? But Irish verb-noun phrases aren't as flexible as English infinitive clauses and I wonder if it even licences ones along these lines or whether it should really be a relative clause instead.

I understand about the 'leí' -> 'leo' change, that's pretty basic, I must have mistyped. So you would have used an expression along the lines of "dá mbeadh níos mó daoine a raibh mé in ann í a chleachtadh leo"? Is it just that it sounds strange and clunky (and you can't put your finger on what rule is being broken)?

It's that I don't know that I've ever come acorss an example like that before. Something can not break any firm grammatical rule and still end up not sounding very idiomatic.

For example, there's nothing at all wrong with the grammar of your rephrasing but I think I would rather go with "daoine gurbh/arbh fhéidir í a chleachtadh leo(tha)".

Ciarán12 wrote:Cá bhfuil na Gaeilgeoirí nuair atá siad uainn?

daltai.com!
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-10-08, 22:29

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:B'fhéidir go mbeadh sé níos éasca dá mbeadh níos mó daoine ann chun í a chleachtadh leí, áfach.

I've underlined this last bit because it seems problematic to me. At the very least, the resumptive pronoun should be leo to agree with daoine, on'dydynach ea? But Irish verb-noun phrases aren't as flexible as English infinitive clauses and I wonder if it even licences ones along these lines or whether it should really be a relative clause instead.

I understand about the 'leí' -> 'leo' change, that's pretty basic, I must have mistyped. So you would have used an expression along the lines of "dá mbeadh níos mó daoine a raibh mé in ann í a chleachtadh leo"? Is it just that it sounds strange and clunky (and you can't put your finger on what rule is being broken)?

It's that I don't know that I've ever come acorss an example like that before. Something can not break any firm grammatical rule and still end up not sounding very idiomatic.

For example, there's nothing at all wrong with the grammar of your rephrasing but I think I would rather go with "daoine gurbh/arbh fhéidir í a chleachtadh leo(tha)".


I suppose it's just idiomatic usage then. The only way I know to improve on that is wide reading and exposure. I usually use the "beith in ann" sturcture because the copula is tricky (for example, what's the difference between "gurbh" and "arbh" in your sentence above? I'd have said "gurbh" probably, but I chose "beith in ann" because it's easier, though I do think "is féidir le duine éigin" is a more common structure).

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:Cá bhfuil na Gaeilgeoirí nuair atá siad uainn?

daltai.com!


Suimiúil :hmm: Tabhairfidh mé amharc thart an suíomh sin...
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2012-10-09, 3:13

Ciarán12 wrote:I suppose it's just idiomatic usage then. The only way I know to improve on that is wide reading and exposure. I usually use the "beith in ann" sturcture because the copula is tricky (for example, what's the difference between "gurbh" and "arbh" in your sentence above?

Dialect vs Standard. (I think I've mentioned before that Munster prefers go in indirect relative clauses.)

Ciarán12 wrote:I'd have said "gurbh" probably, but I chose "beith in ann" because it's easier, though I do think "is féidir le duine éigin" is a more common structure).

Yeah, you'll never sound idiomatic if you don't master the copula. Its use is more common in Irish than in any other language I know.
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-10-19, 22:47

Tá ceist beag agam faoin abairt seo thíos atá scríofa agam ar fóram eile:

I ndáiríre? Is as Seanchill mé féin agus bhí mé sa Teisceó beag sin míle uaireanta gan focail amháin Gaeilge a chloisteáil.


Cuid a haon den cheist:
"bhí mé sa Teisceó beag sin míle uaireanta"
Bhí mé ag déanamh iarracht ná "I was(have been) in that little Tesco a thousand times (before)" a rá, ach táim beagnach cinnte ná nach raibh sé sin ceart. Conas a deirtear é sin?

Cuid a dó:
"gan focail amháin Gaeilge a chloisteáil."
Bhí sé ar intinn agam ná "without hearing/having heard a word of Irish." a rá. An bhfuil sé sin i gceart?
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2012-10-23, 21:14

Ciarán1212 wrote:Is there any particular reason the word order should be "Is í brionglóid na gréine" and not "Is broinglóid na gréine í"?

"Is broinglóid na gréine í" means "It's the dream of the sun". But you want to say "...is the dream of the sun" and for that the syntax is "Is í brionglóid na gréine". The relevant rule is that a definite NP can't follow the copula directly; you need to insert a third-person pronoun of the appropriate number and gender. (If you want to know how this rule came about, I've got a good explanation that I can forward to you by e-mail.)

Ciarán1212 wrote:Also, isn't "brionglóid" in the nominative case, which would make it "bhrionglóid" given that it's a feminine word?

Only when directly preceded by the definite article, which isn't the case here. (See rule 2 under nouns here: http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/lenition.htm#verwend.)
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-10-23, 21:29

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán1212 wrote:Is there any particular reason the word order should be "Is í brionglóid na gréine" and not "Is broinglóid na gréine í"?

"Is broinglóid na gréine í" means "It's the dream of the sun". But you want to say "...is the dream of the sun" and for that the syntax is "Is í brionglóid na gréine". The relevant rule is that a definite NP can't follow the copula directly; you need to insert a third-person pronoun of the appropriate number and gender. (If you want to know how this rule came about, I've got a good explanation that I can forward to you by e-mail.)


I'm a bit confused as to how "brionglóid na gréine" is a definite noun phrase. Is it because it contains a definite article (even though the head noun isn't definite)? (Then again, I suppose "briongóild na gréine" could meaning either "a dream of the sun" or "the dream of the sun")

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán1212 wrote:Also, isn't "brionglóid" in the nominative case, which would make it "bhrionglóid" given that it's a feminine word?

Only when directly preceded by the definite article, which isn't the case here. (See rule 2 under nouns here: http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/lenition.htm#verwend.)


Once again, as soon as I thought I understood something...
So lenition goes on feminine nouns in the nominative and masculine nouns in the genitive, but in both cases only after the article?
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2012-10-23, 21:54

Ciarán12 wrote:I'm a bit confused as to how "brionglóid na gréine" is a definite noun phrase. Is it because it contains a definite article (even though the head noun isn't definite)? (Then again, I suppose "briongóild na gréine" could meaning either "a dream of the sun" or "the dream of the sun")

No, it can only mean the latter. Irish (like Welsh and Arabic) has a constraint which disallows repetition of the article in a doubly definite NP. That is, you simply can't say *an bhrionglóid na gréine, only brionglóid na gréine. To express "a dream of the sun" you need to make use of a prepositional phrase, i.e. brionglóid den ghréin.

Ciarán12 wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán1212 wrote:Also, isn't "brionglóid" in the nominative case, which would make it "bhrionglóid" given that it's a feminine word?

Only when directly preceded by the definite article, which isn't the case here. (See rule 2 under nouns here: http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/lenition.htm#verwend.)

Once again, as soon as I thought I understood something...
So lenition goes on feminine nouns in the nominative and masculine nouns in the genitive, but in both cases only after the article?

No; read through the whole list for an enumeration of cases where indefinite nouns are lenited. The common feature is that they need to follow something, whether it be an article, a particle, another noun, etc.
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