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Gaeilge - ciaran1212 - Page 3 - UniLang

Gaeilge - ciaran1212

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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-10-24, 0:29

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:I'm a bit confused as to how "brionglóid na gréine" is a definite noun phrase. Is it because it contains a definite article (even though the head noun isn't definite)? (Then again, I suppose "briongóild na gréine" could meaning either "a dream of the sun" or "the dream of the sun")

No, it can only mean the latter. Irish (like Welsh and Arabic) has a constraint which disallows repetition of the article in a doubly definite NP. That is, you simply can't say *an bhrionglóid na gréine, only brionglóid na gréine. To express "a dream of the sun" you need to make use of a prepositional phrase, i.e. brionglóid den ghréin.


I see. I knew you couldn't use the definite article twice in a row like that, but I just assumed that there was no way to differentiate definiteness and indefiniteness in the head noun of genitive phrases like that. Just out of curiosity, could one use that prepositional phrase ("brionglóid den ghréin") for definite nouns as well, i.e. "an bhrionglóid den gréin"? (I realise "brionglóid na gréine" sounds a lot more natural though).

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán1212 wrote:Also, isn't "brionglóid" in the nominative case, which would make it "bhrionglóid" given that it's a feminine word?

Only when directly preceded by the definite article, which isn't the case here. (See rule 2 under nouns here: http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/lenition.htm#verwend.)

Once again, as soon as I thought I understood something...
So lenition goes on feminine nouns in the nominative and masculine nouns in the genitive, but in both cases only after the article?

No; read through the whole list for an enumeration of cases where indefinite nouns are lenited. The common feature is that they need to follow something, whether it be an article, a particle, another noun, etc.


Okay, I've read the list, and as an attempt to make the information as digestible as possible, I've tried to come up with an example sentence for each rule, so that I can just memorise the sentences.

Here's what the website said...

nualeargais.ie wrote:Lenition is the grammatical rule of the beginning of a word that:

nouns:

1- after the vocative particle a: a Cháit!

2- feminine nouns in the nominative after the article an (except d, t) in the case of s: s becomes ts (if s precedes a vowel or l,n,r)

3- masculine nouns in the genitive after the article an (except d, t) in the case of s: s becomes ts (if s precedes a vowel or l,n,r)

4- in indefinite genitive attributes after a feminine noun and after the weak plural (but there are many exceptions, more under the section about the genitive)

5- those definite nouns and proper names as a genitive attribute without an article (no matter if the antecedent is masc. or fem.): muintir Cháit = Kate's parents, stáisiún bhus a trí = the Bus #3 stop

6- because it is never possible that 2 genitives come after one another, the first is only lenited and remains in the nominative ("functional genitive")(gender irrespective): e.g. obair bhean an tí = housewife's work, Lá Fheile Pádraig = St.Patrick's Day (lit. "Day of the Feast of Patrick")

7- a noun attribute in compound words (if the 2nd part is not in the genitive): scian phóca = pocket knife

8- a noun in the after numbers 1-6 (but not after 3-6, if the noun that follows is in the plural) after aon also s becomes ts

9- after beirt, dís (2 people), but not after triúr etc.!

10- after an chéad (the first), but not after an dara, an tríú, etc.!

11- after possessive pronouns mo, do, a (a only if it is the 3rd person sg. masc)

12- after a preposition if it lacks an article ar, ó, do, de, faoi, idir, mar, roimh, thrí, thar, gan
(after ar, idir, gan, see there)

13- after don, den in the case of s : s becomes ts (in the standard and in Connacht only the fem. nouns)

14- after sa(n) in the standard, Ulster and Munster (always in Connacht, in Munster in the case of f , eclipsis instead)

15- in Ulster always after preposition + article

16- after uile (= everyone)

17- in surnames after Ní, Uí, Mhic, Nic but not after Ó, Mac


...and here are my example sentences for each of the rules (where I have an ellipsis it means I didn't understand the rule well enough to attempt an example sentence)

1.Cad a rinne tú, a Cháit?

2.Bhí an bhrionglóid go dona, ach bhí an fear go hálainn!

3.Cá bhfuil hata an fhir? Faoi chos an cathaoir.

4.…

5.Bhí muintir Chiaráin ag dul go dtí stáisiún bhus a trí.

6.Ba é Lá Fhéile Pádraig, ach ní raibh an obair bhean an tí críochnaithe go fóill.

7.Cad a rinne tú le mo scian phóca, a Mhurchadh?

8.…

9.“Bhí beirt phólíní ann, táim cinnte faoi.” “Ní raibh, ní raibh ach duine pólín ann”

10.An chéad sheachtain ina dhiadh sin, bhí sé uafásach ar fad, ach ní raibh an dara seachtainan tríú seachtain chomh dona.

11.“Is mo bhróg í sin, ní do bhróg.” “Ní hea, is a bhróg í. Bróg Sheáin. Agus is iad a barriallacha. Bhí siad i bhur theach, ach is ár bharriallacha iad. Agus anois agus
atáim ag féachaint orthu, tá a gcinn cailte!”

12.Bhí siad ag aistriú ó bhaile go baile an t-am ar fad.

13.Sheol mé é don chonsalacht, agus sheol siad é don bosca brúscair.

14.Bhí sí ina suí sa chathaoir a raibh san sheomra suite.

15.…

16.Tá imeachtaí den uile chineál ag tarlú ar fud na hEorpa

17.Tá Bean Ní Chartúir, Bean Uí Chonaill, Bean Mhic Choisdealbha agus Sharon Nic Shiacais sa sheomra suite.

Are these correct, and do they accurately and unambiguously show the rules they are meant to exemplify? Also, could you give me examples of rules 4 and 8? I don't really mind about 15, I'm not learning to speak Ulster Irish.
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2012-10-25, 15:33

Ciarán12 wrote:Just out of curiosity, could one use that prepositional phrase ("brionglóid den ghréin") for definite nouns as well, i.e. "an bhrionglóid den gréin"? (I realise "brionglóid na gréine" sounds a lot more natural though).

I don't recall ever seeing that construction except when the first noun is made definite by means of a demonstrative, e.g. an fear seo den bheirt.

Ciarán12 wrote:3.Cá bhfuil hata an fhir? Faoi chos na cathaoireach.

5.Bhí muintir Chiaráin ag dul go dtí an stáisiún bhus a trí.

9.“Bhí beirt phóilíní ann, táim cinnte faoi.” “Ní raibh, ní raibh ach duineilín amháin ann”

11.“Is í mo bhróg í sin, ní do bhróg.” “Ní hea, is í a bhróg í. Bróg Sheáin. Agus is iad a barriallacha. Bhí siad i bhur theach, ach is iad ár bharriallacha iad. Agus anois agus atáim ag féachaint orthu, tá a gcinn cailte!”

13.Sheol mé é don chonsalacht é, agus sheol siad é don bhosca brúscair é.

Are these correct, and do they accurately and unambiguously show the rules they are meant to exemplify? Also, could you give me examples of rules 4 and 8? I don't really mind about 15, I'm not learning to speak Ulster Irish.

Rule 4 is explained in greater detail here: http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/subst2.htm#genitivlen and Rule 8 here: http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/zahl4.htm#neamh.
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-10-27, 23:04

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:Just out of curiosity, could one use that prepositional phrase ("brionglóid den ghréin") for definite nouns as well, i.e. "an bhrionglóid den gréin"? (I realise "brionglóid na gréine" sounds a lot more natural though).

I don't recall ever seeing that construction except when the first noun is made definite by means of a demonstrative, e.g. an fear seo den bheirt.


Okay, that's interesting.

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:3.Cá bhfuil hata an fhir? Faoi chos na cathaoireach.

5.Bhí muintir Chiaráin ag dul go dtí an stáisiún bhus a trí.

9.“Bhí beirt phóilíní ann, táim cinnte faoi.” “Ní raibh, ní raibh ach duineilín amháin ann”


I can see where all my mistakes were there.

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:11.“Is í mo bhróg í sin, ní do bhróg.” “Ní hea, is í a bhróg í. Bróg Sheáin. Agus is iad a barriallacha. Bhí siad i bhur theach, ach is iad ár bharriallacha iad. Agus anois agus atáim ag féachaint orthu, tá a gcinn cailte!”


I take it from that that the copula can't be followed directly by a possessive pronoun (like with definite NP's)?

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:13.Sheol mé é don chonsalacht é, agus sheol siad é don bhosca brúscair é.


Okay, I misunderstood the rule. I thought it said that in the standard and in Connacht only the fem. nouns lenite after "don" or "den", but I see now it was only referring to initial "s" taking a "t" before it. You moved the object pronouns to the end of their clauses because that's the normal way to say it in Irish, right? (just checking that it's not a special rule coming into effect here for some reason).


linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:Rule 4 is explained in greater detail here: http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/subst2.htm#genitivlen and Rule 8 here: http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/zahl4.htm#neamh.


I'm looking into these, I will post example sentences when I think I get the gist of it. Thanks for the links.
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2012-10-29, 17:50

Ciarán12 wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:11.“Is í mo bhróg í sin, ní do bhróg.” “Ní hea, is í a bhróg í. Bróg Sheáin. Agus is iad a barriallacha. Bhí siad i bhur theach, ach is iad ár bharriallacha iad. Agus anois agus atáim ag féachaint orthu, tá a gcinn cailte!”


I take it from that that the copula can't be followed directly by a possessive pronoun (like with definite NP's)?

A noun preceded by a possessive pronoun is a definite NP. In some analyses, possessives like mo and ár are even called "possessive determiners".

Ciarán12 wrote:You moved the object pronouns to the end of their clauses because that's the normal way to say it in Irish, right? (just checking that it's not a special rule coming into effect here for some reason).

Tá ceart agat. It's much more common than the corresponding "normal" order in English, to the point where putting the object pronouns before the prepositional phrases like that simply sounds completely wrong to me.
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-10-29, 18:08

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:11.“Is í mo bhróg í sin, ní do bhróg.” “Ní hea, is í a bhróg í. Bróg Sheáin. Agus is iad a barriallacha. Bhí siad i bhur theach, ach is iad ár bharriallacha iad. Agus anois agus atáim ag féachaint orthu, tá a gcinn cailte!”


I take it from that that the copula can't be followed directly by a possessive pronoun (like with definite NP's)?

A noun preceded by a possessive pronoun is a definite NP. In some analyses, possessives like mo and ár are even called "possessive determiners".


Okay.

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:You moved the object pronouns to the end of their clauses because that's the normal way to say it in Irish, right? (just checking that it's not a special rule coming into effect here for some reason).

Tá ceart agat. It's much more common than the corresponding "normal" order in English, to the point where putting the object pronouns before the prepositional phrases like that simply sounds completely wrong to me.


Yeah, I remember learning that (you may have told me, I'm not sure). It's just taking a while to fully sink in. Once I saw your corrections it did seem to sound more natural. Again, out of curiosity, would it have been possible to insert the pronoun in both places, i.e. " Sheol mé é don chonsalacht é, agus sheol siad é don bhosca brúscair é." or is that doubling of the pronoun only ever done with the copula (to separate it from definite NP's)?
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2012-10-29, 19:31

Ciarán12 wrote:Again, out of curiosity, would it have been possible to insert the pronoun in both places, i.e. " Sheol mé é don chonsalacht é, agus sheol siad é don bhosca brúscair é." or is that doubling of the pronoun only ever done with the copula (to separate it from definite NP's)?

It only happens with the copula. It's best not to think of the copula as a subtype of verb but as its own category with its own syntax. (Má bhfuil suim agat, is féidir liom a thabhairt duit PDF a mhiondealaíonn mar mhír réamhbhriathartha í.)
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-10-29, 19:46

linguoboy wrote:It's best not to think of the copula as a subtype of verb but as its own category with its own syntax.


Indeed.

linguoboy wrote:(Má bhfuil suim agat, is féidir liom a thabhairt duit PDF a mhiondealaíonn mar mhír réamhbhriathartha í.)


Tá suim agam, seolfaidh mé teachtaireacht phriobháideach le mo sheoladh r-phoist dhuit.
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-11-17, 23:04

I've a question about a structure that's been bothering me for a while now:
"...an teanga s'acu."

What is the "s' " an abbreviation for?
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-17, 18:52

Ciarán12 wrote:I've a question about a structure that's been bothering me for a while now:
"...an teanga s'acu."

What is the "s' " an abbreviation for?

Seo.

I also stumbled across a nice example of gan + VN being used without perfective meaning: Ná fuil do dhóthain cheana agat agus gan bheith ag lorg tuilleadh? "Don't you have enough already without asking for more?"

Cf. the idiomatic expression (peculiar to Munster?) Tá sé gan bheith ar fónamh "He is ill".
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-02-17, 23:31

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:I've a question about a structure that's been bothering me for a while now:
"...an teanga s'acu."

What is the "s' " an abbreviation for?

Seo.


How is that possible though? I've seen it where I would expect it to stand for "atá" as in "Bhí siadsan ag magadh faoin nós cainte s'againn".

linguoboy wrote:I also stumbled across a nice example of gan + VN being used without perfective meaning: Ná fuil do dhóthain cheana agat agus gan bheith ag lorg tuilleadh? "Don't you have enough already without asking for more?"


Okay, that's not too bad (it matches English usage quite well). I'm just wondering if there's any difficult structures with it (like what cropped up in Caoimhín's thread).

linguoboy wrote:Cf. the idiomatic expression (peculiar to Munster?) Tá sé gan bheith ar fónamh "He is ill".


I like that. What is the literal translation for "fónamh"?
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-17, 23:51

Ciarán12 wrote:How is that possible though? I've seen it where I would expect it to stand for "atá" as in "Bhí siadsan ag magadh faoin nós cainte s'againn".

I'm not sure what you mean. This is exactly parallel--at its heart you have an nós s'againn. It's just disguised a bit by the fact that an nós is modified by cainte and preceded by faoi.

Ciarán12 wrote:I'm just wondering if there's any difficult structures with it (like what cropped up in Caoimhín's thread).

Gan dabht. Bíodh na súile scafa agam lena n-aghaidh.

Ciarán12 wrote:What is the literal translation for "fónamh"?

It's the verbal noun of fóin "be of use, serve". E.g.: Maidir liom féin agus le mo theaghlach, ámh, déanfaimid fónamh don Tiarna.
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-19, 14:06

Came across another example of fónamh in use last night in Ó Flaithearta: Marcach ar fónamh [*]bhí inti. "She was an excellent rider."

[*] Ó Flaithearta pretty consistently omits relative a, even when the previous word doesn't end in a vowel.
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-02-19, 16:18

linguoboy wrote:Came across another example of fónamh in use last night in Ó Flaithearta: Marcach ar fónamh [*]bhí inti. "She was an excellent rider."


Tá fónamh mór san fhocal sin! I'm reading the entry for it in *Ó Dónaill's dictionary, and it seems to be quite a versatile word. I found the "ar fónamh" meaning for both of the uses you gave there - ar fónamh fit, well, excellent, bheith ar fónamh: to be well.

Other than that, you can say "duine/rud gan fónamh" - "useless person/thing", "...le fónamh a bheith air" - "...in order that it/he be valid", ". It seems to be used as a noun meaning "useful work/things" as in the example "Níl mórán fónaimh déanta againn inniu" (though I don't understand the slenderisation of fónamh here, is it the genitive? And if it is, does that mean nouns are always in the genitive after mórán? I thought that only happened with a lán...). There's the phrase I used above too, "tá fónamh mór ann" - "it is of great use/greatly beneficial". You can say "Chuaigh sé chun fónamh dom" or "Chuaigh sé i bhfónamh dom" for "It was very benificial for me" or "I made great use of it", and you can also say "fónamh a bhaint as rud éigin" for this latter meaning as well.

I've fallen for fónamh. You'll probably see me horribly overusing it for the next while until I have it ingrained in all its uses into my head.

*Incidentally, do you have that dictionary? I don't think I've ever asked you what resources you use/ have used.

linguoboy wrote:[*] Ó Flaithearta pretty consistently omits relative a, even when the previous word doesn't end in a vowel.


Cá as é/í? Is that an idiosyncrasy of his/hers or a dialectal variation on the norm?
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-19, 16:45

Ciarán12 wrote:It seems to be used as a noun meaning "useful work/things" as in the example "Níl mórán fónaimh déanta againn inniu" (though I don't understand the slenderisation of fónamh here, is it the genitive? And if it is, does that mean nouns are always in the genitive after mórán? I thought that only happened with a lán...).

Mórán and beagán are both nouns, so when they're used as quantifiers, the quantified noun needs to be in the genitive, e.g. mórán cainte ar bheagán cúise.

Ciarán12 wrote:I've fallen for fónamh. You'll probably see me horribly overusing it for the next while until I have it ingrained in all its uses into my head.

Ní miste duit é.

Ciarán12 wrote:*Incidentally, do you have that dictionary?

I have access to a copy at work but not at home.

Ciarán12 wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Ó Flaithearta pretty consistently omits relative a, even when the previous word doesn't end in a vowel.

Cá as é/í? Is that an idiosyncrasy of his/hers or a dialectal variation on the norm?

Árainneach ab ea é. Tá leabhar scríbhneora Árainnigh eile agam, agus ní cheapaim go ndéanann sé amhlaidh. Féadfad sin a chinntiú agus mé sa bhaile ar ball.
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-02-19, 17:16

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:It seems to be used as a noun meaning "useful work/things" as in the example "Níl mórán fónaimh déanta againn inniu" (though I don't understand the slenderisation of fónamh here, is it the genitive? And if it is, does that mean nouns are always in the genitive after mórán? I thought that only happened with a lán...).

Mórán and beagán are both nouns, so when they're used as quantifiers, the quantified noun needs to be in the genitive, e.g. mórán cainte ar bheagán cúise.


I see. Beidh mé cinnte ná nach gcuirfidh mé an fhoirm ainmneach tar éis iad as seo amach.

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Ó Flaithearta pretty consistently omits relative a, even when the previous word doesn't end in a vowel.

Cá as é/í? Is that an idiosyncrasy of his/hers or a dialectal variation on the norm?

Árainneach ab ea é. Tá leabhar scríbhneora Árainnigh eile agam, agus ní cheapaim go ndéanann sé amhlaidh. Féadfad sin a chinntiú agus mé sa bhaile ar ball.


Canúint na hÁrainneach... cé chomh difriúil atá an chanúint na hÁrainneach agus Gaeilge eile Chonamara?
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-19, 18:26

Ciarán12 wrote:Canúint na hÁrainneach... cé chomh difriúil atá an chanúint na hÁrainneach agus Gaeilge eile Chonamara?

Is deacair liom a rá go beacht, ach chím cosúlacht níos mó le canúint na Mumhan ag canúint na hÁrainneach.
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-21, 2:53

Another useful example spotted "san fhianas": Tháinig Beartla chomh luath agus bhí an focal ráite aici. Notice how the perfective is used to emphasise the recency of occurrence, i.e. "Bartley came as soon as she said the word." (Or perhaps, "No sooner had she said the word but Bartley came.")
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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-02-21, 9:28

linguoboy wrote:Another useful example spotted "san fhianas": Tháinig Beartla chomh luath agus bhí an focal ráite aici. Notice how the perfective is used to emphasise the recency of occurrence, i.e. "Bartley came as soon as she said the word." (Or perhaps, "No sooner had she said the word but Bartley came.")


Kind of reminds me of a way of putting that in Irish English; Bartley came, and she only having the word said.
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-04-03, 2:32

Here's one for you: How would you say "I'm not doing that"? "I'm not doing it" would be "Nílim á dhéanamh", so where would you put the "sin"? Would it be "Nílim á dhéanamh sin", or would you use the empathic -sa/-se that goes with other possessive constructions like "mo leaba-sa", i.e. "Nílim á dhéanamh-sa"?

Also, on a separate note, I was thinking how "sár-fheoilséantóir" or "fíor-fheoilséantóir" are not terms that make an awful lot of sense for "vegan", and I don't think my girlfriend (nor any vegan) would like them, so I was trying to come up with an alternative. I thought of "lucht frith-sclábhaíocht ainmhí", but that's a bit of a mouthful. How would you compound "sclábhaíocht" and "ainmhí" the way "feoil" and "séantóir" have been? "Ainmhísclábhaíocht" just doesn't sound right...
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Gaeilge - ciaran1212

Postby linguoboy » 2013-04-11, 19:36

Ciarán12 wrote:Also, nílim chun rá ar son mo chomhthírigh, ach labhraímse Gaeilge.

Cad é gur mhian leat a rá anso?
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