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Gaeilge - Caoimhín - Page 4 - UniLang

Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Moderator: Ciarán12

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-02-16, 3:59

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:I looked up ways to say "in order to" and it came up. I prefer it to just "go", because that also means "that", so there'd be a danger I'd misunderstand.

IME, this seldom if ever causes real ambiguity.


Perhaps not for people who can speak Irish well, but it would have confused me if you had used it, so I didn't use it.

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:I don't understand how "gan déanamh a obair bhaile" can mean "without her homework done" as opposed to " without doing her homework".

Simple: Irish doesn't make this distinction. She went without doing her homework, so her homework isn't done.


Isn't there a difference between asking why the child has not already finished her homework and why she isn't doing it now? I'm prepared to accept that Irish doesn't make the distinction clear normally (and that other words, like "already" would be used if clarification was needed), but I would initially interpret "gan déanamh a obair bhaile" as "not doing her homework", which is why I didn't use it.

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:You have. I'm not really sure the alternatives you provided could be considered "less wordy" though.

Nach bhfuil go leor rudaí le déanamh agam (8 words in 11 syllables)
Nach bhfuil mo dhóthain le déanamh agam (7 words in 10 syllables)
Nach leor dom a bhfuil le déanamh agam (9 words in 10 syllables)

Granted, it's not a big difference, but over the course of a paragraph or two, it adds up.


Okay.

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:Also, "Nach leor dom a bhfuil le déanamh agam" makes absolutely no fuckin' sense to me...

Cad atá air? "is-not enough for-me all-that-which is to do at-me" = "Isn't everything I have to do enough for me?"


Interpreting "a" as "all-that-which" takes some doing for me.

linguoboy wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Seo anois, ní raibh caill ort, nach ea?

"There there, that wasn't so bad [it wasn't a loss for you], innit?"


Má dheireann tú...
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-16, 5:23

Ciarán12 wrote:Isn't there a difference between asking why the child has not already finished her homework and why she isn't doing it now? I'm prepared to accept that Irish doesn't make the distinction clear normally (and that other words, like "already" would be used if clarification was needed), but I would initially interpret "gan déanamh a obair bhaile" as "not doing her homework", which is why I didn't use it.

IME, this is conventionally interpreted has "hasn't done her homework". If you wanted to express that she was not currently doing it, you would use a different expression, e.g. cén fáth nach bhfuil an páiste ag déanamh a cuid obair bhaile. But a sentence like yours is not something I would ever expect to hear from a native (Gaeltacht) speaker.

(Of course, looking at it again makes me realise that it should be a cuid obair bhaile.)

Ciarán12 wrote:Interpreting "a" as "all-that-which" takes some doing for me.

That's what the eclipsis is there to tell you.
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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-02-16, 5:35

linguoboy wrote:IME, this is conventionally interpreted has "hasn't done her homework". If you wanted to express that she was not currently doing it, you would use a different expression, e.g. cén fáth nach bhfuil an páiste ag déanamh a cuid obair bhaile. But a sentence like yours is not something I would ever expect to hear from a native (Gaeltacht) speaker.


Having had precious little conversation with with natives as Gaeilge, I wouldn't know.

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:Interpreting "a" as "all-that-which" takes some doing for me.

That's what the eclipsis is there to tell you.


I doesn't, it just tells me that if there was a noun before it, it would mean "...that I have to do." I'm not accustomed to seeing it without a noun before it. I would have put "na rudaí" or "an obair" or something before the "a".
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby kevin » 2013-02-16, 8:56

Ciarán12 wrote:Please, don't tempt me. I'm very susceptible to wanderlust!

This is asking me to continue, right? :P

Though I don't even know if there are any usable resources, so maybe not...

linguoboy wrote:If it'll make you feel better, a Chaoimhín, I'll go through Ciarán's version first.Gan trua gan trócaire!

Nah, we're not in a competition. I would have been even happier if you hadn't gone through Ciarán's version only. Because I'm sure that I fscked up a few parts in my translation - when I gave up and just tried to muddle through somehow. The result feels rather wordy, too...

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-02-16, 15:07

kevin wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:Please, don't tempt me. I'm very susceptible to wanderlust!


Though I don't even know if there are any usable resources, so maybe not...


As soon as you mentioned it I started looking... I couldn't really find much. I also found a bewildering array of dialects, so choosing one would be hard. I'd say there would be most resources for Swiss German dialects. I like the idea of learning a "Highest Alemannic" dialect (because the name is cool, but also because it's the least similar to Standard German, or so says Wikipedia).

But about the translation (quickly shuffling back to Irish), are there any concrete rules we can discern from this (rather unanesthetised) open-heart surgery on my translation regarding the use of "gan" with verbs/verbal nouns? "gan déanamh a cuid obair bhaile" means "without having her homework done", would "gan a cuid obair bhaile a dhéanamh" also make sense/ mean the same thing? Are there other uses of "gan" with verbs/verbal nouns that we can get out in the open while we're at it?
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby kevin » 2013-02-16, 17:25

Ciarán12 wrote:As soon as you mentioned it I started looking... I couldn't really find much. I also found a bewildering array of dialects, so choosing one would be hard. I'd say there would be most resources for Swiss German dialects. I like the idea of learning a "Highest Alemannic" dialect (because the name is cool, but also because it's the least similar to Standard German, or so says Wikipedia).

Right, even Swiss people say they don't understand the (Highest Alemannic) dialects of Wallis. I as a Swabian speaker probably don't stand a chance. I noticed that I'm already hesitant to correct things in linguoboy's variety, which I believe is at the border between Low and High Alemannic.

But about the translation (quickly shuffling back to Irish), are there any concrete rules we can discern from this (rather unanesthetised) open-heart surgery on my translation regarding the use of "gan" with verbs/verbal nouns? "gan déanamh a cuid obair bhaile" means "without having her homework done"

As I understand it, the literal translation would be more along the lines of "without her homework having been done" (if I got the English grammar right... :?), i.e. the homework is the subject, not the girl.

would "gan a cuid obair bhaile a dhéanamh" also make sense/ mean the same thing?
#
I'm not sure if this is valid, but if it is, it looks to me as if the girl was the subject.

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby Lur » 2013-02-16, 17:53

Caoimhín = Kevin?? You learn something new everyday :) Does a Chaoimhín mean something in particular?

kevin wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:Please, don't tempt me. I'm very susceptible to wanderlust!

This is asking me to continue, right? :P

Though I don't even know if there are any usable resources, so maybe not...

Do you speak Alemannic??

When I decided I should learn German and repared on these dialects I thought I should try learn one alongside the standard, which is probably a unusual endeavour among German learners here but it seems to me the logical thing to do (like with Basque or Arabic). But I don't know what would be the precise divisions between them and what resources would be available, or if would be too much work, or if I should wait until I get somewhere with the standard.
Last edited by Lur on 2013-02-16, 18:17, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-02-16, 17:56

kevin wrote:
But about the translation (quickly shuffling back to Irish), are there any concrete rules we can discern from this (rather unanesthetised) open-heart surgery on my translation regarding the use of "gan" with verbs/verbal nouns? "gan déanamh a cuid obair bhaile" means "without having her homework done"

As I understand it, the literal translation would be more along the lines of "without her homework having been done" (if I got the English grammar right... :?), i.e. the homework is the subject, not the girl.

would "gan a cuid obair bhaile a dhéanamh" also make sense/ mean the same thing?
#
I'm not sure if this is valid, but if it is, it looks to me as if the girl was the subject.


In both cases it looks to me as if the homework is the object. In Irish, the Verb-Subject-Object word order might lead you to believe that "gan déanamh a cuid obair bhaile" has it as Verb (déanamh) - Subject (a cuid obair bhaile) and no object, but "déanamh" is a verbal noun, not a verb, and objects usually come after it (in the genitive) in the present progressive or before it followed by "a" (which causes lenition on the verbal noun) elsewhere. Maybe "a cuid obair bhaile" is the subject in the phrase "gan déanamh a cuid obair bhaile", but I don't see how.
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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-02-16, 18:02

Luke wrote:Caoimhín = Kevin?? You learn something new everyday :) Does a Chaoimhín mean something in particular?


It's the vocative case.

Luke wrote:
kevin wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:Please, don't tempt me. I'm very susceptible to wanderlust!

This is asking me to continue, right? :P

Though I don't even know if there are any usable resources, so maybe not...

When I decided I should learn German and repared on these dialects I thought I should try learn one alongside the standard, which is probably a unusual endeavour among German learners here but it seems to me the logical thing to do (like with Basque or Arabic). But I don't know what would be the precise divisions between them and what resources would be available, or if would be too much work, or if I should wait until I get somewhere with the standard.


Some people aren't too fond of the idea of learning two closely related languages at once, because it might confuse them. I generally don't have problems mixing and matching like that, but if you do you might want to reconsider. I'd like to learn both Standard German and another German variety (maybe two even) simultaneously, but it would be nice if there was one course that did that (i.e. that gave you the grammar and vocab of both, and explained the differences where they arise), but that may be asking a bit much...
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby księżycowy » 2013-02-16, 18:12

Sorry to butt in, but I figure if Luke did . . .

First you guys make me want to resuscitate my Irish studies, and now you make me want to do the same with my German. WTF!? :headbang:
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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-02-16, 18:18

księżycowy wrote:Sorry to butt in, but I figure if Luke did . . .

First you guys make me want to resuscitate my Irish studies, and now you make me want to do the same with my German. WTF!? :headbang:


Don't pretend you don't love it...
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby Lur » 2013-02-16, 18:19

Maybe we could try not wandering around the parts of the forum where people talk about languages we aren't studying at the moment. :P

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby kevin » 2013-02-16, 18:27

Luke wrote:Do you speak Alemannic??

I'm a Swabian native speaker, and Swabian is an Alemannic dialect.

But I don't know what would be the precise divisions between them and what resources would be available, or if would be too much work, or if I should wait until I get somewhere with the standard.

You won't find precise divions, it's a dialect continuum. Resources are probably hard to find and mostly in German, so getting to a reasonable level in Standard German first sounds helpful.

Ciarán12 wrote:In both cases it looks to me as if the homework is the object.

Indeed. I was confused, take all of that back and claim the opposite. ;)

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby księżycowy » 2013-02-16, 18:28

Ciarán12 wrote:Don't pretend you don't love it...

I do, but you already know that. :wink:

Luke wrote:Maybe we could try not wandering around the parts of the forum where people talk about languages we aren't studying at the moment. :P

I've been following this thread since Kevin started it.
I'm actually quite impressed with his progress. I didn't make it quite far enough to start doing stuff like this when I was studying Irish last year.

You can have your thread back now, Kevin. :lol:
þūhte mē þæt ic gesāwe syllicre trēow on lyft lædan lēohte bewunden bēama beorhtost.

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-16, 18:31

Ciarán12 wrote:Having had precious little conversation with with natives as Gaeilge, I wouldn't know.

One word of advice: Léigh. Do you think I have a lot of opportunity to converse with natives? Instead I read their writings--their blogs, their memoirs, their fiction, their essays. It may mean that my diction is more literary than what you're aiming for, but that is how I come across these useful elegant idioms. More importantly, it's how I get a feel for proper usage.

In the absence of input from natives (or educated fluent speakers), you end up filling in the gaps with your understanding of how things work in English. Occasionally that works, but other times it leads you rather far astray.

Ciarán12 wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:Interpreting "a" as "all-that-which" takes some doing for me.

That's what the eclipsis is there to tell you.

I doesn't, it just tells me that if there was a noun before it, it would mean "...that I have to do." I'm not accustomed to seeing it without a noun before it. I would have put "na rudaí" or "an obair" or something before the "a".

But that's the point: If there's not a noun before it, then you have to assume it's a generalising relative pronoun. This makes sense to me because it parallels the usage in German: "Ist was ich zu tun habe schon nicht genug?" You could add in a demonstrative--"Ist das, was ich zu tun habe, schon nicht genug?"--but it isn't necessary. In the absence of one, you assume a general reference for the indefinite relative pronoun was. In this sentence, a works more-or-less the same.

Na rudaí is exactly the sort of thing(!) which is as commonplace in English as it is rare in Irish.

Ciarán12 wrote:But about the translation (quickly shuffling back to Irish), are there any concrete rules we can discern from this (rather unanesthetised) open-heart surgery on my translation regarding the use of "gan" with verbs/verbal nouns? "gan déanamh a cuid obair bhaile" means "without having her homework done", would "gan a cuid obair bhaile a dhéanamh" also make sense/ mean the same thing? Are there other uses of "gan" with verbs/verbal nouns that we can get out in the open while we're at it?

I see that sort of construction more often with pronominal objects than nominal ones, since contemporary Irish really tries to avoid using a possessed verbal noun (e.g. gan a dhéanamh), although this is common in the earlier literary language. But I don't see any reason why it couldn't be used with that sense.

I'll do a little more research and get back to you on this.
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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-16, 18:55

kevin wrote:I would have been even happier if you hadn't gone through Ciarán's version only. Because I'm sure that I fscked up a few parts in my translation - when I gave up and just tried to muddle through somehow. The result feels rather wordy, too...

I figured you pretty much knew what your errors were since Ciarán had already indirectly pointed several of them out (e.g. lack of lenition in páiste, using go to introduce a verbal noun complement). Why don't you make a few corrections, then I'll go through it again.
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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby kevin » 2013-02-16, 22:11

I'm not sure how useful that is. I mean, of course I could just take Ciarán's version, change the points you mentioned and call it my new one. I just wouldn't learn from my mistakes.

I'll change all the obvious mistakes that I think I fully understand. It's just that this text is at a level where at least for me things generally aren't obvious any more.

Cá bhfuil athair eile an pháiste? Tá sé sa chistin agus* ag ullmhú an dinnéir. Tá sé ag cócaráil an éisc. Tagann sé abhaile ón obair níos luaithe go bhfuil dóthain ama aige go ullmhaíonn sé an dinnéir**. Tá a fhear céile ag fiafraí*** de cén fáth a bhfuil an páiste gan déanamh a chuid oibre**** bhaile. Ar sé, "Nach bhfuil dóthain le déanamh agam mar atá sé? Anois cá bhfuil an bainne a d'iarr mé a ceanniónn tú é?*****"


*) I understand that this "agus" isn't necessary at all. But is it correct syntax if I leave it in?
**) Changed the verbal noun to a finite form - is this the "go" thing you meant? Of course Ciarán's version is a much better translation, but is this still a correct sentence?
***) Ciarán chose the simple present. Is it better? Why?
****) I am confused again with the gender to use. My original version has "a hobair", i.e. feminine. Last time we said better agree with the grammatical gender, so I'm making it "a chuid obair" now. Ciarán has "a obair" (looks masc. to me) and "aici" (fem.) And in fact, shouldn't it be genitive "oibre" despite what you said earlier in the thread? Giving up.
*****) Of course Ciarán's version is a much better translation here as well, but is this still a correct sentence?

I don't think I actually corrected that much, but at least I've written down some questions now...

Also if someone could correct my postings the the Irish discussion thread, that would be great, too.

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-17, 17:34

kevin wrote:Cá bhfuil athair eile an pháiste? Tá sé sa chistin agus* ag ullmhú an dinnéir. Tá sé ag cócaráil an éisc. Tagann sé abhaile ón obair níos luaithe go bhfuil dóthain ama aige go n-ullmhaíonn sé an dinnéir**. Tá a fhear céile ag fiafraí*** de cén fáth a bhfuil an páiste gan déanamh a chuid obair**** bhaile. Ar sé, "Nach bhfuil dóthain le déanamh agam mar atá sé? Anois cá bhfuil an bainne a d'iarr mé a ceanniónn tú é?*****"


kevin wrote:*) I understand that this "agus" isn't necessary at all. But is it correct syntax if I leave it in?

I wouldn't.

kevin wrote:**) Changed the verbal noun to a finite form - is this the "go" thing you meant? Of course Ciarán's version is a much better translation, but is this still a correct sentence?

Go eclipsis, which before vowels is realised as n, i.e. go n-ullmhaíonn. But the whole thing sounds so awkward to me, I can't be sure it's 100% correct. Something about the sequence of tenses doesn't ring true, but I'm not sure this isn't interference from English.

A note on bhfuil in the previous clause: I would prefer the habitual form, mbíonn. It's more in keeping with the implied recurring nature of the whole sequence of events.

kevin wrote:***) Ciarán chose the simple present. Is it better? Why?

Chaithfeá sin d'fhiafraí do Chiarán. It's not better or worse, but it does belong to a more literary register. I suspect he was simply following the model of the English.

kevin wrote:****) I am confused again with the gender to use. My original version has "a hobair", i.e. feminine. Last time we said better agree with the grammatical gender, so I'm making it "a chuid obair" now. Ciarán has "a obair" (looks masc. to me) and "aici" (fem.) Giving up.

Maybe we should simply give her a name and be quit of this nonsense. FWIW, I agree with your version.

mar atá sé--Ciarán had the more idiomatic solution here (mar atá an scéal, though personally I would've gone with a simple cheana (féin).

kevin wrote:*****) Of course Ciarán's version is a much better translation here as well, but is this still a correct sentence?

Nope. You can't have *D'iarr mé a ceanniónn tú an bainne in Irish any more than you could have *Ich bat, das kaufst du die Milch in German. If you want to avoid a verbal noun construction (and, frankly, I don't know why you'd want to unless this is a form of hypercorrection where you're chary of using the same construction that's natural to you in German) you would need a conditional: D'iarr mé ort go cheannófá an bainne.

And on a minor note, *a ceanniónn is impossible for two reasons: first of all, it violates the basic rule of leathan le leathan agus caol le caol. The present habitual form is ceannaíonn. Secondly, the relative pronoun a either causes eclipsis (indirect relative clauses or direct relative clauses with a generalising intent) or lenition (other direct relative clauses). There's no third option except when the past autonomous form is involved, i.e. an bainne a ceannaíodh "the milk which was/has been bought".
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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby kevin » 2013-02-17, 21:08

linguoboy wrote:
kevin wrote:*) I understand that this "agus" isn't necessary at all. But is it correct syntax if I leave it in?

I wouldn't.

That was not my question. ;)

I admit that I could have asked more directly. Basically what I was aiming at is what parts of a sentence I can connect with "agus", and if I must repeat any of the words that stay the same. That is, which of these sentences are gramatically correct?

Tá sé ag cócaráil agus ól.
Tá sé ag cócaráil agus ag ól.
Tá sé ag cócaráil agus sí ag ól.
Tá sé ag cócaráil agus tá sí ag ól.

Nope. You can't have *D'iarr mé a ceanniónn tú an bainne in Irish any more than you could have *Ich bat, das kaufst du die Milch in German.

Right, because in German the word order is Ich bat (darum), dass du die Milch kaufst. But apart from that this sentence works. Sure, with "darum" it's nicer, but it works even without.

The thing that makes the exact sentence of the translation a bit trickier is that it's a relative clause referring to the milk. *Wo ist die Milch, die ich bat, dass du sie kaufst doesn't work, because I didn't ask the milk. I would have to make it something like Wo ist die Milch, in Bezug auf die ich bat, dass du sie kaufst, which is a bit awkward, but works. I thought Irish indirect relative clauses could handle this nicely, but seems I was wrong and expected too much here.

If you want to avoid a verbal noun construction (and, frankly, I don't know why you'd want to unless this is a form of hypercorrection where you're chary of using the same construction that's natural to you in German) you would need a conditional: D'iarr mé ort go cheannófá an bainne.

Hm, conditional? Interesting, I wouldn't even have considered that. If anything, a subjunctive would make sense because I'm expressing a wish.

And the only reason to avoid the verbal noun construction is to find out which other constructions are possible and which aren't. ;)

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-17, 22:57

kevin wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
kevin wrote:*) I understand that this "agus" isn't necessary at all. But is it correct syntax if I leave it in?

I wouldn't.

That was not my question.

You do understand that there will be questions of yours I won't be able to give you an answer to, don't you? I know what I would say in a lot of circumstances and what I've heard others say, but I can't offer an opinion on what I haven't heard. Case in point, I've never heard:
kevin wrote:1. Tá sé ag cócaráil agus ól.
from a native speaker. Does that mean it would never be used? I dunno, but to be on the safe side, I wouldn't use it myself. As for the rest:
kevin wrote:2. Tá sé ag cócaráil agus ag ól.
3. Tá sé ag cócaráil agus sí ag ól.
4. Tá sé ag cócaráil agus tá sí ag ól.

(2) I have heard. It may be hypercorrection, but I really want to insert é before the second ag, though properly this construction expresses simultaneity, i.e. agus é ag ól "while he was drinking."

(3) and (4) both seem acceptable, though again I have an urge to make the second pronoun emphatic, i.e. ...ag sise ag ól "...and she [by contrast] was drinking".

kevin wrote:I thought Irish indirect relative clauses could handle this nicely, but seems I was wrong and expected too much here.

There are some things they can handle nicely, but you simply don't use them where a verbal noun construction handles the problem just fine.

kevin wrote:Interesting, I wouldn't even have considered that. If anything, a subjunctive would make sense because I'm expressing a wish.

The subjunctive is dead in contemporary Irish outside of fixed expressions. Part of the reason for the conditional is that this is future-in-the-past. Unlike German, Irish has a morphologically-expressed future tense which it requires in cases where Germanic languages allow a simple non-past. Were I to put the request in the present tense (while avoiding a verbal noun construction--perhaps to win a bet or something), I would say: Táim ag iarraidh ort go gceannóidh tú an bainne. So when it gets cast into the past, I naturally replace the future with the conditional.

(Would a native speaker say it that way? Next time I meet one I can ask.)
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