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Old English Discussion - Page 12 - UniLang

Old English Discussion

Moderator: Ashucky

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sa wulfs
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Re: Old English Discussion

Postby sa wulfs » 2012-11-25, 12:05

"You" comes from Old English "eow", which was the accusative/dative of the 2nd person pl. pronoun "ge". Old English didn't have a plural of courtesy, but Middle English did, so it started using "ye" < "ge" and "yow" < "eow" as the 2nd person sg. in courteous contexts. In early Modern English, it lost the connotations of courtesy and became the standard pronoun.

"Þu" goes all the way back to Proto-Indo-European, and it still survives as "thou".
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Hrōþabaírhts sa Wulfs | Hrōðbeorht se Wulf | Hróðbjartr Úlfrinn | Hruodperaht der Wolf | Hrôthberht thê Wulf

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Re: Old English Discussion

Postby NogueiraTrue » 2013-02-12, 2:03

I've found this book today, it may be very useful to people who want to learn Old English

http://www.e-reading-lib.org/bookreader ... nglish.pdf

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księżycowy
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Re: Old English Discussion

Postby księżycowy » 2013-02-12, 14:09

Interesting book. Thanks.

I think I'll start thumbing through A Guide to Old English at my leisure. Lately I've been dying to dive into some Old English texts, so that's what I shall do! :D
þūhte mē þæt ic gesāwe syllicre trēow on lyft lædan lēohte bewunden bēama beorhtost.

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krustenkaese
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Re: Old English Discussion

Postby krustenkaese » 2013-02-21, 15:24

Something I find problematic with the book NogueiraTrue linked is that it doesn't seem to mark the different pronunciations of c and g (i.e., sċ, ċ, ġ, ċġ). I'm using this book myself (bought a paper copy). Whilst it is more academic and a bit tedious at times, these ċs and ġs really do help pronunciation.

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Re: Old English Discussion

Postby JackFrost » 2013-02-21, 17:46

Mostly because the marks only serve to help learners to understand the phonological nature of Old English. After you're well familiar with the language, they're not used (it's a modern convention, not an original Anglo-Saxon one).
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krustenkaese
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Re: Old English Discussion

Postby krustenkaese » 2013-02-21, 18:44

JackFrost wrote:Mostly because the marks only serve to help learners to understand the phonological nature of Old English. After you're well familiar with the language, they're not used (it's a modern convention, not an original Anglo-Saxon one).


That is true. Just today in IRC, I kind of got that they seem to be redundant. However, I find it's a good thing for beginners... not that teaching someone what a front vowel is is that difficult either, though.

That being said, I'd love a surge of Ænglisc(/ċ ;) ) on the boards! It sure is more motivating to learn a language when you have opportunities to use it actively, rather than mere reading of old texts.

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sa wulfs
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Re: Old English Discussion

Postby sa wulfs » 2013-02-22, 0:40

I think palatal c/g, and vowel length, should only be noted in dictionaries and in the few first lessons of a grammar for beginners. They're artificial, and you're better off learning to read without that crutch in case you ever have to deal with an unstandardized text (or, god forbid, a manuscript).

Also, it's not always clear whether a c/g should be palatalized or not in a particular word or context, and different scholars have different opinions.
http://ungelicisus.blogspot.com
Hrōþabaírhts sa Wulfs | Hrōðbeorht se Wulf | Hróðbjartr Úlfrinn | Hruodperaht der Wolf | Hrôthberht thê Wulf

spuntotheratboy
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Re: Old English Discussion

Postby spuntotheratboy » 2014-05-21, 8:59

So, I'm looking at "Samson" in Sweet's Primer, and here's a sentence that I'm having trouble with - that is, I know what it means, but as with an Ikea bookshelf, I seem to have parts left over when I've finished putting it together.

Him cōm þā gangende tō Godes ęngel, and cwæþ þæt hīe scolden habban sunu him ġemǣnne;

...there's more, but I'm pretty sure that's grammatically self-sufficient, and it's really only the first part I'm asking about.

What I don't get is what gangende tō is doing there. The sentence seems to work OK without it: "Then God's angel came to them..." with "to" expressed in the dative him. I haven't quite sussed the way movement is implied by case, movement towards vs movement at a place, so maybe that's where my problem is.

Either gangende is expressive of the angel's movement, and is the preposition pointing at him at the beginning of the sentence - but that seems like it's stretching the word order a bit - or is a prefix, and gangende tō is part of tō-gān (like a modern German separable verb) which should imply separation in some way, and which I can't seem to fit in semantically.

Thanks for your help. This is the sort of thing that makes me wish I had a teacher!
Ben

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sa wulfs
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Re: Old English Discussion

Postby sa wulfs » 2014-05-21, 11:13

I'd say your first theory is correct. The way I understand that sentence, him is indeed governed by to, and to him is just the normal complement of cuman when it means motion towards a person. Gangende is kinda redundant, but it can be interpreted as "walking". That particular word order, with the separation of the preposition and the word it governs, is not particularly uncommon in OE literature, especially with verbs of motion.

So, Him com þa gangende to Godes engel = Godes engel com to him gangende, in a more transparent (for modern ears) word order.
http://ungelicisus.blogspot.com
Hrōþabaírhts sa Wulfs | Hrōðbeorht se Wulf | Hróðbjartr Úlfrinn | Hruodperaht der Wolf | Hrôthberht thê Wulf

spuntotheratboy
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Re: Old English Discussion

Postby spuntotheratboy » 2014-05-27, 21:36

Thanks, Hroðbeorht I really appreciate your taking the time to reply. What you say makes sense. As an NE speaker I find word order is the thing most likely to lead me astray - I just can't trust my instincts!

Thanks again.
Ben

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Re: Old English Discussion

Postby Babelfish » 2014-11-08, 18:05

... I give up. I love etymology, and while about 70% of English words actually originate from Latin AFAIK (many via Old French), still many come from Old English words - with much cooler spelling and those awesome þ, ð and æ :<3: Not to mention they were originally written with runes!

Tolkien also used runes, and scattered words like Mearas and Eorlingas made me suspect Old English crept into his writings, which is apparently confirmed by a quick Google search.

I've installed an Icelandic keyboard in order to be able to type þ, ð and æ easily, and looked for some online courses. Let the journey begin!
Native languages: Hebrew (he) & English (en)

מן המקום בו אנו צודקים לא יפרחו לעולם פרחים באביב (יהודה עמיחי)
From the place where we are in the right, flowers will never grow in the spring (Yhuda Amihay)


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