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Old-yet-still-learnable languages - Page 3 - UniLang

Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Moderator: Ashucky

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Lur
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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby Lur » 2013-04-09, 17:06

Learnable:
Coptic
Old Babylonian, Middle, New, Late; Standard Babylonian
Old Assyrian -> Middle Assyrian -> New Assyrian
Eblaite (?)
Classical Arabic
Ge'ez
Classical Syriac
Biblical/Classical Hebrew
Ancient Greek/Koine Greek
Latin
Old Galician/Old Portuguese
Old Leonese
Old Castilian
Old Aragonese
Old Occitan/Provençal
Old Catalan (splits from Occitan at some point)
Old French-> Middle French
Old Welsh -> Middle Welsh
Middle Cornish
Old Irish -> Middle Irish
Old Norse (Old Icelandic)
Old English -> Middle English
Old High German -> Middle High German
Old Church Slavonic/ Old Bulgarian
Sanskrit
Middle Persian
Pali/Prakrit
Avestan
Classical Tibetan
Classical Japanese
Old Tamil -> Middle Tamil
Ottoman Turkish
Chagatai

On the fence:
Sumerian
Middle Egyptian (no vowels)
Old Akkadian (pre sargonic -> sargonic -> Ur III) (???)
Ugaritic
Umbrian
Oscan
Gothic
Yola
Prussian
Old Persian
Sogdian
Hittite
Tocharian A/B
Classical Chinese

Not-learnable:
Etruscan
Gaulish, Lepontic, Galatian
Noric
Primitive Irish
Celtiberian, Astur, Galaic, etc
Lusitanian
Tartessian
Iberian
Phoenician
Moabite
Elamite
Hurrian/Urartian
Hattic
Phrygian
Ammonite
North Picene
South Picene
Venetic
Messapian
Lydian
Lycian
Sidetic
Pisidian
Carian
Thracian
Volscian
Meroitic
Norn

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mōdgethanc
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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-04-09, 18:01

ceid donn wrote:No, there is not much in the way of extent Aramaic texts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbinical_literature

Tell this to an Orthodox Jew. Expect to be laughed at.
Aramaic thrived when the Jewish world was becoming more and more Hellenized, and thus, as you would expect, it only lived a very short life as a literary language, quickly being replaced by Greek.
As you can see, Aramaic was the literary language of the Jewish world for long enough to produce some of their most important religious texts, and definitely more important nowadays than Greek ever was.
This is why in grad school, although the theological part of my phil/theo degree plan was focused on Biblical studies, I wasn't required to study Aramaic. Aramaic is something only a particular niche of Bible scholars have devoted time to being specialized in, because its use in Biblical research is pretty limited. If you need to know something about Aramaic you'd just look to those people's research rather than spending a good chunk of your time getting specialized in it yourself.
No, you weren't expected to study Aramaic because it's not the language of the Bible. But this is a very Christian-centric viewpoint. Any serious Talmudic scholar has to know it.

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Karavinka
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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby Karavinka » 2013-04-17, 7:05

I don't really get what you mean by "learnable".. I am going to assume that you can do more than piecemeal analysis and bring it into some extensive productive use, probably in writing.

Learnable:
Latin
Ancient Greek/Koine
Arabic
Coptic
Hebrew
Aramaic
Akkadian
Classical Chinese
Sanskrit
Pali
Norse
Tibetan
...I'm not terribly sure about the others. At least these languages offer a huge variety of texts which are more or less standardized, give and take some (sometimes important) variations.


Confusables:
Middle English
Middle High German
Old French
...and other medieval languages where every writer wrote in whatever dialect. These languages offer a huge amount of texts but lack a "standard" and reading different dialects and spellings all the time can be quite confusing, especially if you want to compose something in it. You could choose one author as a standard, but that might limit the corpus a bit too much.


Barely:

Pretty much everything else, I suppose.. Unless I forgot something to mention here.
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

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Lur
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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby Lur » 2013-04-28, 15:11

Well, in a language like medieval Castilian the standard is supposed to be the Poem of the Cid, which is written in an slighly archaic poetic language that was seemingly very imitated in its time. The pronunciation of the language is understood and there are normalized spellings.

I'd say it'd depend on the case, I wouldn't limit the number of "learnable languages" that much.

In your first list I'd also put Old Irish.

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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby MkO » 2013-05-19, 8:11

Luke wrote:Coptic (?)


Coptic isn't technically a dead language.There's still a handful of Copts kicking around that speak it as a first language. According to an article in The Daily Star Egypt published in 2006, Coptic "remains the spoken language of the church and only two families in Egypt" as well, "Some scholars have theorized that some remote villagers in the Delta region of Egypt or in the south of the country may still speak forms of the Coptic language. Because many Egyptians live in small villages away from government control and active study by anthropologists, it is theorized that Coptic will persist despite official numbers."

That being said Coptic heavily endangered, and is totally learnable, in fact, it's subject to an active attempt to revive the language currently. A great amount of literature has been produced by the Coptic Church encouraging people to study Coptic.
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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby Aryaqk » 2013-06-12, 7:42

not-learnable:

Median :(
First language:[flag]fa[/flag] - Native language:[flag]ku[/flag]
Intermediate level:[flag]en[/flag]
Beginner's level:[flag]tr[/flag][flag]az[/flag] - Interested in learning:[flag]ps[/flag]

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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby baradsonoron » 2013-07-07, 1:28

Learnable:
Coptic totally
Old Babylonian, Middle, New, Late; Standard Babylonian
Old Assyrian -> Middle Assyrian -> New Assyrian
Eblaite (?)
Classical Arabic it's already known by millions of Muslims
Ge'ez just weird Amharic
Classical Syriac people still semi-speak it
Biblical/Classical Hebrew hello? Israel? They kind of skipped 2000 years of language change
Ancient Greek/Koine Greek
Latin
    Old Galician/Old Portuguese
    Old Leonese
    Old Castilian
    Old Aragonese
    Old Occitan/Provençal
    Old Catalan (splits from Occitan at some point)
all of these are not much different
Old French-> Middle French this should be easy in france
Old Welsh -> Middle Welsh this should be easy in wales
Middle Cornish
Old Irish -> Middle Irish this should be easy in ireland
Old Norse (Old Icelandic) well, it's more pronouncable than icelandic, that's a start
Old English -> Middle English done
Old High German -> Middle High German this should be easy in germany
Old Church Slavonic/ Old Bulgarian in use
Sanskrit in use
Middle Persian
Pali/Prakrit
Avestan
Classical Tibetan
Classical Japanese
Old Tamil -> Middle Tamil its called proto dravidian
Ottoman Turkish just modern turkish with funny archaisms that get you laughed at in turkey
Chagatai isn't that like uyghur?

On the fence:
Sumerian i think people could learn this and semi-revive it. just substitute akkadian words if you don't know the sumerian words, and use english words for modernisms (e.g. computer)
Middle Egyptian (no vowels)
Old Akkadian (pre sargonic -> sargonic -> Ur III) (???)
Ugaritic
Umbrian
Oscan
Gothic
Yola
Prussian i hope you mean old prussian and not prussian german
Old Persian
Sogdian
Hittite
Tocharian A/B
Classical Chinese

Not-learnable:
Etruscan we know ten words and a sh*tload of names
Gaulish, Lepontic, Galatian
Noric
Primitive Irish
Celtiberian, Astur, Galaic, etc
Lusitanian
Tartessian
Iberianrelated to basque, just use basque borrowings for everything. I suggest moving to the fence
Phoenician
Moabite
Elamite
Hurrian/Urartian
Hattic
Phrygian
Ammonite
North Picene
South Picene
Venetic
Messapian
Lydian
Lycian two words: linear a.
Sidetic
Pisidian
Carian
Thracian
Volscian
Meroitic
Norn
Bárád-dur, unákufênot
Bárád-dur, ais baraské mé paná
Bárád-dur, tukufartasc
Ais unápoton cuéfainaktat unágoladébupotone

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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-08, 2:12

Classical Arabic it's already known by millions of Muslims
Not as many as you might think, nor as well as you might think.
Ge'ez just weird Amharic
Can you back that up? They seem very different to me.
Classical Syriac people still semi-speak it
Who? Neo-Syriac is Classical Syriac in the same way that French is neo-Latin.
Biblical/Classical Hebrew hello? Israel? They kind of skipped 2000 years of language change
Not really. Modern Hebrew has changed quite a lot over the past hundred years or so, and now it's at least as different from Biblical Hebrew as Modern English is from Early Modern.
Old English -> Middle English done
What do you mean, "done"? A knowledge of modern English might give you a working knowledge of Middle English, but not Old English.
Old Church Slavonic/ Old Bulgarian in use
Sanskrit in use
Can these really be said to be "in use" when they're mainly used for ritual purposes?

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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby baradsonoron » 2013-07-09, 19:17

Yes, they are used and comprehended.

2) I was thinking middle english, not old. pardon me. old english is really difficult but well known and learnable.

3) isn't amharic descended from ge'ez?
Bárád-dur, unákufênot
Bárád-dur, ais baraské mé paná
Bárád-dur, tukufartasc
Ais unápoton cuéfainaktat unágoladébupotone

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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby księżycowy » 2013-07-09, 19:48

3) isn't amharic descended from ge'ez?

No. They are both South Semitic, but Amharic did not develop from Geez, Tigrinya and Tigre did.
I'm sure as the liturgical and literary language for centuries Geez had its influence on Amharic though.
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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby iodalach93 » 2013-07-15, 9:22

For those who have learnt/are learning/are just interested in Coptic: did you manage to find free lessons/PDFs/other material for learning it online? I highly doubt I can find something in the local libaries...
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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2013-07-15, 13:28

iodalach93 wrote:For those who have learnt/are learning/are just interested in Coptic: did you manage to find free lessons/PDFs/other material for learning it online? I highly doubt I can find something in the local libaries...

http://www.lexicity.com/languages.html

An amazing place to start for everyone interested in ancient languages... There is a lot of resources for many languages, and Coptic is among them. Just select Coptic grammars, and I think you won't need any other materials... :P
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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby iodalach93 » 2013-07-15, 14:01

xivrox wrote:An amazing place to start for everyone interested in ancient languages... There is a lot of resources for many languages, and Coptic is among them. Just select Coptic grammars, and I think you won't need any other materials... :P

Wow! To jest fantastyczne! Nie wiedziałem o istnieniu tamtej strony, dziękuję bardzo xivrox! Jestem pewny, że będzie bardzo pomocne :)
Czy studiujesz starożytny język ty również?

(Sorry for my broken Polish, it's been a while since I last practised it)
Mothertongue: Italian (it) Currently studying/practicing: British English (en) American English (en-US) Russian (ru) MSA (ar) Lebanese Arabic (ar-LB) Studied: Latin (la) Ancient Greek (grc) Speaking some: French (fr) Spanish (es-ES) Catalan (ca) European Portuguese (pt-PT) Brazilian Portuguese (pt-BR) Swedish (sv) Bulgarian (bg) Irish Gaelic (ga) Persian (fa) Beginner in: Romanian (ro) German (de) Icelandic (is) Polish (pl) Hungarian (hu) Lithuanian (lt) Greatly interested in: Sanskrit (sa) Etruscan (ett) Danish (da) Norwegian Bokmål (no-NB) Japanese (ja) Czech (cs) Croatian (hr) Finnish (fi) Tatar (tt) Turkish (tr) Azerbaijani (az) Georgian (ka) Coptic (cop) Hebrew (he) Syriac (syc) Maltese (mt) Armenian (hy-E) Albanian (sq) Modern Greek (el)

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Патрислав Андреевич
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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2013-07-15, 14:45

iodalach93 wrote:Wow! To jest fantastyczne! Nie wiedziałem o istnieniu tamtej strony, dziękuję bardzo xivrox! Jestem pewny, że będzie bardzo pomocne :)
Czy ty również studiujesz starożytny język?

Tak, nawet kilka (a raczej próbuję): starocerkiewnosłowiański, łacina, oraz sumeryjski (którego, niestety, na tej stronie nie ma). Cieszy mnie, że mogłem pomóc. :wink:

Yes, a few actually (I try at least): Old Church Slavonic, Latin, and Sumerian (which, unfortunately, is not included on that site.) I'm happy I could help. :wink:
„Miej serce i patrzaj w serce!” — Adam Mickiewicz

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Itikar
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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby Itikar » 2013-07-17, 17:52

iodalach93 wrote:For those who have learnt/are learning/are just interested in Coptic: did you manage to find free lessons/PDFs/other material for learning it online? I highly doubt I can find something in the local libaries...
Ⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ! :)
Prova anche questo corsetto sul tubo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JlNTGDSStQ
Sono ben 42 lezioni.
Fletto i muscoli e sono nel vuoto!
All corrections are welcome and appreciated.

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iodalach93
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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby iodalach93 » 2013-07-17, 22:30

Itikar wrote:Ⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ! :)
Prova anche questo corsetto sul tubo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JlNTGDSStQ
Sono ben 42 lezioni.

ϯϣⲉⲡⲙⲟⲧ! Sei interessato anche tu al copto?
Wow, addirittura 42 video, so come passare la prossime notti insonni :lol:
Mothertongue: Italian (it) Currently studying/practicing: British English (en) American English (en-US) Russian (ru) MSA (ar) Lebanese Arabic (ar-LB) Studied: Latin (la) Ancient Greek (grc) Speaking some: French (fr) Spanish (es-ES) Catalan (ca) European Portuguese (pt-PT) Brazilian Portuguese (pt-BR) Swedish (sv) Bulgarian (bg) Irish Gaelic (ga) Persian (fa) Beginner in: Romanian (ro) German (de) Icelandic (is) Polish (pl) Hungarian (hu) Lithuanian (lt) Greatly interested in: Sanskrit (sa) Etruscan (ett) Danish (da) Norwegian Bokmål (no-NB) Japanese (ja) Czech (cs) Croatian (hr) Finnish (fi) Tatar (tt) Turkish (tr) Azerbaijani (az) Georgian (ka) Coptic (cop) Hebrew (he) Syriac (syc) Maltese (mt) Armenian (hy-E) Albanian (sq) Modern Greek (el)

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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby johnklepac » 2013-08-08, 5:22

Added Classical Nahuatl to Learnable. I found a few books in my county's collective library catalog without looking very hard.

Learnable:
Coptic
Old Babylonian, Middle, New, Late; Standard Babylonian
Old Assyrian -> Middle Assyrian -> New Assyrian
Eblaite (?)
Classical Arabic
Ge'ez
Classical Syriac
Biblical/Classical Hebrew
Ancient Greek/Koine Greek
Latin
    Old Galician/Old Portuguese
    Old Leonese
    Old Castilian
    Old Aragonese
    Old Occitan/Provençal
    Old Catalan (splits from Occitan at some point)
Old French-> Middle French
Old Welsh -> Middle Welsh
Middle Cornish
Old Irish -> Middle Irish
Old Norse (Old Icelandic)
Old English -> Middle English
Old High German -> Middle High German
Old Church Slavonic/ Old Bulgarian
Sanskrit
Middle Persian
Pali/Prakrit
Avestan
Classical Tibetan
Classical Japanese
Old Tamil -> Middle Tamil
Ottoman Turkish
Chagatai
Classical Nahuatl

On the fence:
Sumerian
Middle Egyptian (no vowels)
Old Akkadian (pre sargonic -> sargonic -> Ur III) (???)
Ugaritic
Umbrian
Oscan
Gothic
Yola
Prussian
Old Persian
Sogdian
Hittite
Tocharian A/B
Classical Chinese

Not-learnable:
Etruscan
Gaulish, Lepontic, Galatian
Noric
Primitive Irish
Celtiberian, Astur, Galaic, etc
Lusitanian
Tartessian
Iberian
Phoenician
Moabite
Elamite
Hurrian/Urartian
Hattic
Phrygian
Ammonite
North Picene
South Picene
Venetic
Messapian
Lydian
Lycian
Sidetic
Pisidian
Carian
Thracian
Volscian
Meroitic
Norn

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mōdgethanc
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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-08, 5:36

I don't understand why Classical Chinese is "on the fence". Yeah, we don't know exactly how it was pronounced, but you could say that about any dead language. If by learn you mean read and write in it (and why else would you learn a dead language?) then you certainly can do that.

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Lauren
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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby Lauren » 2013-08-08, 7:18

I was under the impression that all known pronunciations of Classical Chinese words were hypothetical, from reconstruction. If that is the case, then you couldn't even pretend to be able to speak the language, since nothing was known for sure.

Although, I am aware that the older Chinese script was more phonetic in some regards, so maybe some things can be known for sure, but I don't know enough about the subject to say for sure.
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księżycowy
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Re: Old-yet-still-learnable languages

Postby księżycowy » 2013-08-08, 10:15

I'm with mōd on this one. Classical Chinese premiers always give the pronunciation in Modern Mandarin (and even Korean or Japanese sometimes) and it seems to work just fine for the academia.

Learnable:
Coptic
Old Babylonian, Middle, New, Late; Standard Babylonian
Old Assyrian -> Middle Assyrian -> New Assyrian
Eblaite (?)
Classical Arabic
Ge'ez
Classical Syriac
Biblical/Classical Hebrew
Ancient Greek/Koine Greek
Latin
    Old Galician/Old Portuguese
    Old Leonese
    Old Castilian
    Old Aragonese
    Old Occitan/Provençal
    Old Catalan (splits from Occitan at some point)
Old French-> Middle French
Old Welsh -> Middle Welsh
Middle Cornish
Old Irish -> Middle Irish
Old Norse (Old Icelandic)
Old English -> Middle English
Old High German -> Middle High German
Old Church Slavonic/ Old Bulgarian
Sanskrit
Middle Persian
Pali/Prakrit
Avestan
Classical Tibetan
Classical Japanese
Old Tamil -> Middle Tamil
Ottoman Turkish
Chagatai
Classical Nahuatl
Classical Chinese

On the fence:
Sumerian
Middle Egyptian (no vowels)
Old Akkadian (pre sargonic -> sargonic -> Ur III) (???)
Ugaritic
Umbrian
Oscan
Gothic
Yola
Prussian
Old Persian
Sogdian
Hittite
Tocharian A/B

Not-learnable:
Etruscan
Gaulish, Lepontic, Galatian
Noric
Primitive Irish
Celtiberian, Astur, Galaic, etc
Lusitanian
Tartessian
Iberian
Phoenician
Moabite
Elamite
Hurrian/Urartian
Hattic
Phrygian
Ammonite
North Picene
South Picene
Venetic
Messapian
Lydian
Lycian
Sidetic
Pisidian
Carian
Thracian
Volscian
Meroitic
Norn
þūhte mē þæt ic gesāwe syllicre trēow on lyft lædan lēohte bewunden bēama beorhtost.


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