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księżyc - Readings in Greek - UniLang

księżyc - Readings in Greek

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księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby księżycowy » 2014-08-05, 20:48

Just like my Biblical Hebrew thread, this will catalogue my readings in both Classical and Koiné Greek. As I'm starting out in Koiné (a.k.a New Testament or Biblical), that's where we'll begin. But eventually I'll start posting some Classical Greek stuff.

This is as much a way to practice as it is the hope people will help/correct me where appropriate.

As the Gospels are the usual starting place, I feel like doing something different. :P We'll go through the letters attributed to John first.

1 John 1:1-4
̔Ὸ ἦν ἀπʼ ἀρχῆς, ὃ ἀκηκόαμεν, ὃ ἑωράκαμεν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ἡμῶν, ὃ ἐθεασάμεθα καὶ αἱ χεῖρες ἡμῶν ἐψηλάφησαν περὶ τοῦ λόγου τῆς ζωῆς -- καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἐφανερώθη, καὶ ἑωράκαμεν καὶ μαρτυροῦμεν και ἀπαγγέλλομεν ὑμῖν τὴν ζωὴν τὴν αἰώνιον ἥτις ἦν πρὸς τὸν πατέρα καὶ ἐφανερώθη ἡμῖν -- ὃ ἑωράκαμεν καὶ ἀκηκόαμεν, ἀπαγγέλλομεν καὶ ὑμῖν, ἵνα καὶ ὑμεῖς κοινωνίαν ἔχητε μεθʼ ἡμῶν. καὶ ἡ κοινωνία δὲ ἡ ἡμετέρα μετὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ μετὰ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ. καὶ ταῦτα γράφομεν ἡμεῖς, ἵνα ἡ χαπὰ ἡμῶν ᾖ πεπληρωμένη.

Verse 1:
̔Ὸ ἦν ἀπʼ ἀρχῆς, ὃ ἀκηκόαμεν, ὃ ἑωράκαμεν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ἡμῶν, ὃ ἐθεασάμεθα καὶ αἱ χεῖρες ἡμῶν ἐψηλάφησαν περὶ τοῦ λόγου τῆς ζωῆς

Gloss:
̔
ἦνἀπʼἀρχῆς
who/that/which(he/she/it) was(away) frombeginningwho/that/which
ἀκηκόαμενἑωράκαμεντοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς
we have heardwho/that/whichwe have seen(the) eyes
ἡμῶνἐθεασάμεθακαὶαἱ χεῖρες
ourwho/which/thatwe beheld/sawand/even(the) hands
ἡμῶνἐψηλάφησανπερὶτοῦ λόγουτῆς ζωῆς
our(they) touched/felt/groped ??around/near(the) word(the) life


Parsing of Keywords:
ἀκηκόαμεν - ἀκήκοα is the perfect indicative 1st per. sing. of ἀκούω, thus ἀκηκόα-μεν is 1st per. pl.
ἑωράκαμεν - ἑώρακα is the perfect indicative 1st per. sing. ὁράω, thus this form is 1st per. pl.
αἱ χεῖρες - 3rd declension nom. fem. pl. of χείρ


Translation:
What [that which?]* was from [a? the?]** beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we beheld and they felt around the word of life with our hands.

*I'm not sure if that would work.
**The Greek says "a beginning," but most translations make it "the beginning."

Grammar to Refresh/Learn:
A ton, mostly stuff with verbs. :lol:

Vocabulary to Refresh/Learn:
ὁ ὀφθαλμός
ἡ χείρ

Notes:
I'm not so sure of my translation, to be honest, I'll have to consult the English text to see how far off or on I am. It's mostly that verb I touch on below.

I'm very unsure of the tense, mood and person of: ἐψηλάφησαν.
The charts in the back of my textbook seem to suggest it's third person aorist form, but that doesn't fit the English translation (yes, I cheated a bit). Nor does it fit the flow of the verse. It must be a weird verb. (That's the technical term, of course. :P ) I don't know, I'll leave it as is until I know what's going on there.
Last edited by księżycowy on 2014-08-06, 22:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2014-08-06, 14:37

If Wallace's Greek Grammar beyond the Basics is on your reading list, I'd say ignore articles behaving unexpectedly. The articles behave quite differently in Koine, and Wallace devotes a fair amount of pages to discussing issues like this.

αἱ χεῖρες is nominative in your parsing but dative in your translation - "our hands" is the subject.

ἐψηλάφησαν (psi, not phi) is indeed aorist active indicative third person plural (btw, moods other than the indicative are easy to weed out in conjugations like this since the augment only occurs in the indicative). It's also transitive (the object is ὅ).

The περί is used figuratively here, i.e., "about, regarding, concerning," and applies to all of the preceding, not just ἐψηλάφησαν.

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Re: księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby księżycowy » 2014-08-06, 18:17

Thanks! :D

As per usual, it comes to me a bit late, but thanks to your help I just figured it out. I should be a bit more careful. :oops: (The font they use can be a bit hard to read, I must contest)

I'll correct it when I get a chance.


And yes, Wallace is indeed on my reading list.
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Re: księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby księżycowy » 2014-08-06, 22:36

Ok, let's fix this thing:

Verse 1:
̔Ὸ ἦν ἀπʼ ἀρχῆς, ὃ ἀκηκόαμεν, ὃ ἑωράκαμεν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ἡμῶν, ὃ ἐθεασάμεθα καὶ αἱ χεῖρες ἡμῶν ἐψηλάφησαν περὶ τοῦ λόγου τῆς ζωῆς

Gloss:
̔
ἦνἀπʼἀρχῆς
who/that/which(he/she/it) was(away) frombeginningwho/that/which
ἀκηκόαμενἑωράκαμεντοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς
we have heardwho/that/whichwe have seen(the) eyes
ἡμῶνἐθεασάμεθακαὶαἱ χεῖρες
ourwho/which/thatwe beheld/sawand/even(the) hands
ἡμῶνἐψηλάφησανπερὶτοῦ λόγουτῆς ζωῆς
our(they) touched/felt/gropedaround/near(the) word(the) life


Parsing of Keywords:
ἀκηκόαμεν - ἀκήκοα is the perfect indicative 1st per. sing. of ἀκούω, thus ἀκηκόα-μεν is 1st per. pl.
ἑωράκαμεν - ἑώρακα is the perfect indicative 1st per. sing. ὁράω, thus this form is 1st per. pl.
αἱ χεῖρες - 3rd declension nom. fem. pl. of χείρ
ἐψηλάφησαν - 3rd per. pl. aorist


Translation:
What [that which?]* was from [a/the]** beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we beheld and our hands felt, regarding the word of life.

*I'm not sure if that would work.
**The Greek says "a beginning," but most translations make it "the beginning."

Grammar to Refresh/Learn:
A ton, mostly stuff with verbs. :lol:

Vocabulary to Refresh/Learn:
ὁ ὀφθαλμός
ἡ χείρ

Notes:
Thanks go to HoneyBuzzard for the awesome help!
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Re: księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby modus.irrealis » 2014-08-07, 9:37

księżycowy wrote:*I'm not sure if that would work.

It works. In the Greek you have a relative clause without an explicit antecedent, so the English equivalent is "what" or "that which", which mean the same here.

**The Greek says "a beginning," but most translations make it "the beginning."

I wouldn't say that the lack of the definite article is the same as having "a", especially with prepositions. There are many expressions like κατ' οἶκον (="at home", not "at a home") or ἅμ' ἡμέρᾳ (="at (the) dawn", not "at a dawn"). I think with ἀπ' ἀρχῆς, it (always?) has a definite sense.

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Re: księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby księżycowy » 2014-08-07, 10:33

modus.irrealis wrote:I wouldn't say that the lack of the definite article is the same as having "a", especially with prepositions. There are many expressions like κατ' οἶκον (="at home", not "at a home") or ἅμ' ἡμέρᾳ (="at (the) dawn", not "at a dawn"). I think with ἀπ' ἀρχῆς, it (always?) has a definite sense.

Of course. In English we certainly would usually translate it with the definite article. One thing I find (which may not be the case here, but is other places) is the mimicry of Genesis, which in Hebrew anyway is not definite, and simply states "a beginning." Not to mention, Greek (as well as Hebrew) can add the definite article in there, but it is absent in both texts (the Masoretic text and Setuagent).

Of course, any New Testament text would go back to the Septuagent, but that is a translation from the Hebrew text.

Anyway, it's worth noting both translation possibilities here I think.


Thanks for the confirmation on the "that which" option too by the way.
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Re: księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby księżycowy » 2014-09-21, 19:03

1 John 1:1-4

Text:
Ὃ ἧν ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς, ὃ ἀκηκόαμεν, ὃ ἑωράκαμεν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ἡμῶν, ὃ ἐθεασάμεθα καὶ αἱ χεῖρες ἡμῶν ἐψηλάφησαν περὶ τοῦ λόγου τῆς ζωῆς – καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἐφανερώθη, καὶ ἑωράκαμεν καὶ μαρτυροῦμεν καὶ ἀπαγγέλλομεν ὑμῖν τὴν ζωὴν τὴν αἰώνιον ἥτις ἧν πρὸς τὸν πατέρα καὶ ἐφανερώθη ἡμῖν – ὃ ἑωράκαμεν καὶ ἀκηκόαμεν, ἀπαγγέλλομεν καὶ ὑμῖν, ἵνα καὶ ὑμεῖς κοινωνίαν ἔχητε μεθ’ ἡμῶν. καὶ ἡ κοινωνία δὲ ἡ ἡμετέρα μετὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ μετὰ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ. καὶ ταῦτα γράφομεν ἡμεῖς, ἵνα ἡ χαρὰ ἡμῶν ᾗ πεπληρωμένη.

Parsing of Key Words:
ἐφανερώθη – 3rd per. sing. 1st aorist passive of φανερόω
μαρτυροῦμεν – 3rd per. pl., present indicative of μαρτυρέω
ἀπαγγέλλομεν – 3rd per. pl., present indicative of ἀπαγγέλλω
ἥτις – ἥ + τις
πεπληρωμένη – fem. nom. sing. perfect middle/passive participle of πληρόω

Gloss:
that/which was from beginning, that we_have-heard, that we-have-seen the eyes our, that we-beheld and/even the hands our they_touched/felt around/near the word of_the of_life – and the life was-made-manifest/known, and we-have-seen and we_bear-witness and we_report/relate/announce to_you-(pl) the life the eternal who/which was toward/with the father and was-made-manifest/known to_us – that we_have-seen and we_have-heard, we_bear-witness and/even to_you-(pl), that and you communion/fellowship you-(pl)_have with us. and the communion/fellowship but the of_our with the father and with the son his Jesus Christ. and these we_write we, that the delight/joy our who/which fulfilling.

Translation:
That which was from [a/the] beginning, that we have heard, that we have seen [with] our eyes, that we beheld and our hands have felt around the word of life – and [that] life was made manifest, we have seen and bear witness and we announce to you (pl.) the eternal life which was with the father and was made known to us – that we have seen and we have heard, and we bear witness to you, that you have fellowship with us. And our fellowship [is] with the Father and with his son, Jesus Christ. And we write these [things], [so] that our joy is fulfilled.

Notes:
-Yes, I put 1 John 1:1 here too. It seemed only right to stick it with the rest of the section. I didn't quite do as much as I had planned, but I'll post what I have.

-The participle was quite hard to translate initially. The second two sentences I had to look at the NRSV to see what they had.

Feel free to comment/correct/suggest away. :)
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Re: księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby modus.irrealis » 2014-09-21, 19:22

księżycowy wrote:Translation:
That which was from [a/the] beginning, that we have heard, that we have seen [with] our eyes, that we beheld and our hands have felt around*1) the word of life – and [that] life was made manifest, we have seen and bear witness and we announce to you (pl.) the eternal life which was with the father and was made known to us – that*2) we have seen and we have heard, and*3) we bear witness to you, that you have fellowship with us. And our fellowship [is] with the Father and with his son, Jesus Christ. And we write these [things], [so] that our joy is fulfilled.

1) What do you mean by "around" here?
2) I'd suggest that here too it means "that which". My take on this sentence is that the sentence kind of gets away from the the author and he's starting over again and recapping the first part.
3) With the word order it's "we announce also to you, so that..." (I think you also mixed up μαρτυροῦμεν and ἀπεγγέλλομεν here).

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Re: księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby księżycowy » 2014-09-21, 20:40

modus.irrealis wrote:1) What do you mean by "around" here?

I was attempting to translate περὶ.

2) I'd suggest that here too it means "that which". My take on this sentence is that the sentence kind of gets away from the the author and he's starting over again and recapping the first part.

Ok, that sounds quite reasonable to me.

3) With the word order it's "we announce also to you, so that..." (I think you also mixed up μαρτυροῦμεν and ἀπεγγέλλομεν here).

Yeah, towards the end there the word order was getting quite difficult for me to decipher. It's more then probable I messed some things up.

Thanks for the help thus far modus. :D
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Re: księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby modus.irrealis » 2014-09-22, 7:43

I phrased that badly. I just was wondering how you understand περί here. I take it to mean "concerning the Logos".

I'm glad if I can help in any way. I do very little with Ancient Greek lately, and this thread is making me want to get back to it. Maybe I can finally try to read the Odyssey....

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Re: księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby księżycowy » 2014-09-22, 10:52

modus.irrealis wrote:I phrased that badly. I just was wondering how you understand περί here. I take it to mean "concerning the Logos".

After looking at a lexicon or two, I'm inclined to agree. I honestly can't recall where I got my first translation for περί. It might have been my textbook.

I'm glad if I can help in any way. I do very little with Ancient Greek lately, and this thread is making me want to get back to it. Maybe I can finally try to read the Odyssey....

You most certainly are helping. I'm still struggling a bit, especially with word order. Over time and exposure I should start to see improvement though.

I'd love to read the Odyssey too. I just figure I should get my Koine up to a comfortable reading ability first. Then I can fiddle with Attic.
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Re: księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby modus.irrealis » 2014-09-28, 9:56

księżycowy wrote:After looking at a lexicon or two, I'm inclined to agree. I honestly can't recall where I got my first translation for περί. It might have been my textbook.

"around" is the basic spatial/concrete meaning of περί, so it's fine as a gloss and I'm sure how a textbook would translate it. It's just the abstract meanings that I find confusing, in whatever language.

I'd love to read the Odyssey too. I just figure I should get my Koine up to a comfortable reading ability first. Then I can fiddle with Attic.

The nice thing about Homer is that his sentence structure is fairly simple. There's the initial hurdle of the fact that Homer uses a lot of alternative forms, but once you get used to that, the syntax is not so bad. It's not like some of the page-long sentences you get in Classical authors...

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Re: księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby księżycowy » 2014-09-28, 10:27

modus.irrealis wrote:The nice thing about Homer is that his sentence structure is fairly simple. There's the initial hurdle of the fact that Homer uses a lot of alternative forms, but once you get used to that, the syntax is not so bad. It's not like some of the page-long sentences you get in Classical authors...

That would be nice for a change! I'm not finding the sentences in 1 John too complex (for the most part), but they can be pretty nice and long themselves. :lol:
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Re: księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby księżycowy » 2014-12-02, 20:28

We're going verse by verse again, at least for a while. I'll compile when I get a bunch done (be that a good few verses, or a whole chapter).

Verse 5:
καὶ ἔστιν αὕτη ἡ ἀγγελία ἣν ἀκηκόαμεν ἀπʼ αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀναγγέλλομεν ὑμῖς, ὅτι ὁ θεος φῶς ἐστιν καὶ σκοτία ἐν αὐτῷ οὐκ ἔστιν οὐδεμία.

Gloss:
καὶἔστιναὕτηἡ ἀγγελίαἣν
andhe/she/it isthis(the) messagewhich
ἀκηκόαμενἀπʼαὐτοῦκαὶἀναγγέλλομεν
we have heardfromhimandwe relay/report
ὑμῖςὅτιὁ θεοςφῶςἐστιν
(to) youthatGodlightis
καὶσκοτίαἐναὐτῷοὐκ
anddarknessin(to) himnot
ἔστινοὐδεμία
isnot one, no-one


Parsing of Keywords:
Nothing of note.

Translation:
And this is the message which we have heard from him, and we relay to you, that God is light and not one in him is [in] darkness.

Grammar to Refresh/Learn:
Nothing new.

Vocabulary to Refresh/Learn:
I could use a refresher on the pronouns ἀυτός, οὗτος, and ὅς.
ἡ ἀγγελία

Notes:
This was a relatively simple sentence. Nothing major to report.
ἐν αὐτῷ is a unit (in him), I just glossed it like two seperate units.
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Re: księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2014-12-03, 18:52

You're not checking your translations against published translations? σκοτία ἐν αὐτῷ οὐκ ἔστιν οὐδεμία is there is no darkness in him. οὐδεμία is feminine to agree with σκοτία.

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Re: księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby księżycowy » 2014-12-03, 20:52

HoneyBuzzard wrote:You're not checking your translations against published translations? σκοτία ἐν αὐτῷ οὐκ ἔστιν οὐδεμία is there is no darkness in him. οὐδεμία is feminine to agree with σκοτία.

No, but I probably should.

I thought the wording was a bit odd there. It made sense to me either way (the way you suggested, and what I have above). With εστιν at the end, I'll admit the subject was a bit obscure to me. But with your hint about ουδεμία makes me see now. Thanks.

This thread really is paying for itself, with all my stupid mistakes. :P
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Re: księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby księżycowy » 2014-12-03, 21:01

Fixing my translation, thanks HoneyBuzzard!
Verse 5:
καὶ ἔστιν αὕτη ἡ ἀγγελία ἣν ἀκηκόαμεν ἀπʼ αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀναγγέλλομεν ὑμῖς, ὅτι ὁ θεος φῶς ἐστιν καὶ σκοτία ἐν αὐτῷ οὐκ ἔστιν οὐδεμία.

Gloss:
καὶἔστιναὕτηἡ ἀγγελίαἣν
andhe/she/it isthis(the) messagewhich
ἀκηκόαμενἀπʼαὐτοῦκαὶἀναγγέλλομεν
we have heardfromhimandwe relay/report
ὑμῖνὅτιὁ θεοςφῶςἐστιν
(to) youthatGodlightis
καὶσκοτίαἐναὐτῷοὐκ
anddarknessin(to) himnot
ἔστινοὐδεμία
isnot one, no-one


Parsing of Keywords:
Nothing of note.

Translation:
And this is the message which we have heard from him, and we relay to you, that God is light and [there] is no darkness in him. (Or alternatively I could say: "and no darkness is in him" I suppose)

Grammar to Refresh/Learn:
Nothing new.

Vocabulary to Refresh/Learn:
I could use a refresher on the pronouns ἀυτός, οὗτος, and ὅς.
ἡ ἀγγελία

Notes:
This was a relatively simple sentence. Nothing major to report.
ἐν αὐτῷ is a unit (in him), I just glossed it like two seperate units.
Last edited by księżycowy on 2014-12-03, 21:28, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby Bernard » 2014-12-03, 21:17

Hi!
ὑμῖν, not ὑμῖς.

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Re: księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby księżycowy » 2014-12-03, 21:27

Quite right. Fixed my typo, thanks Bernard!
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Re: księżyc - Readings in Greek

Postby księżycowy » 2014-12-03, 22:39

Verse 6:
Ἐὰν εἴπωμεν ὅτι κοινωνίαν ἐχομεν μετʼ αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐν τῷ σκότει περιπατῶμεν, ψευδόμεθα καὶ οὐ ποιοῦμεν τὴν ἀλήθειαν·

Gloss:
ἐὰνεἴπωμενὅτικοινωνίανἐχομεν
ifwe saythatfellowshipwe have
μετʼ αὐτοῦκαὶἐν τῷ σκότειπεριπατῶμενψευδόμεθα
with himandin (the) darknesswe live/walk aroundwe lie
καὶοὐ ποιοῦμεντὴν ἀλήθειαν
andwe do not do(the) truth


Parsing of Keywords:
ψευδόμεθα - first person plural middle indicative of ψευδόμαι
τῷ σκότει - dative singular of ἡ σκοτία

Translation:
If we say that we have fellowship with him and we live in darkness, we lie and we do not do [what is] the truth.

Notes:
I referenced the NRSV to see how they phrased the end of the verse. I would have left it as "we do not do the truth" myself.But I see why they added what they did.
Last edited by księżycowy on 2014-12-04, 8:53, edited 1 time in total.
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