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Etruscan - UniLang

Etruscan

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Koko
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Etruscan

Postby Koko » 2014-08-26, 5:33

I'm really asking about the pertinentive case: how do you use it? Its name suggests it should be used like the topic or the of in cases where it really means about or when it is like Game of Thrones where it isn't a game possessed by thrones, but instead a game pertaining to throne (okay, in truth only one throne matters).

Yet, when I got a clue as to how it should be used, clavtieθu-ra-si is translated as the members of the Clavtie family. Since I don't know much, is θu a morpheme which means member or family? 'Cause then I think I can figure out why it's translated as it is.

Many thanks in advance. Oh, and if someone has found a good source for this language, it'd be great if you could share that rare piece of knowledge :)
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: Etruscan

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2014-08-26, 18:11

I don't know much about Etruscan, but I got interested in the question and did a little digging. You may have already found these, but I figured I might as well share my thoughts on what I found:

This says "Etruscan has no grammatical gender. Female sex is indicated by a suffix (-θa, -θu, -i)."

This says "Additional cases, like 'ablative', 'dative' or 'pertinentive', which have been postulated every now and then, are misread locatives.."

This says "Another from, called "pertinentivus" by Rix, but "dativus" by most linguists, developed from adding the locative -i to the genitive: -s-i; but -la-i>-le. Both ablative and dative are easily to understand if we bare in mind that the genitives on -s and -l originally were adjectives (f.e. not "from/of school" but "school(i)s(h)"."

Page 172 of this book says

Pillar from the Tomb of the Claudii in Cerveter. Late fourth century.

laris avle larisal clenar sval cn šuthi cerichunce apac atic sanišva thui cesu clavtiethurasi

'Laris (and) Avle, sons of Laris, (while) living made this tomb. Both father and mother, deceased (?), lie here. For the family (?) of the Claudii'


Since the translation questions the word "family" (for "clavtiethurasi"), my guess is they're tentatively reading the "thu" as a feminine suffix (the sons built the tomb, so maybe the inscription is dedicated to their widows, lit. "for the women of the Claudii"). In any event it has nothing to do with the pertinentive case, the -si, which is a derived dative/ablative.

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Re: Etruscan

Postby Koko » 2014-08-26, 19:08

Thank you! I shall read those when I have more time or am bored. That tomb thing could help with vocabulary: since I know the basics (inflectional affixs) I think I could use it to build a vocab.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: Etruscan

Postby Lauren » 2014-08-26, 20:29

Ugh, don't remind me of Etruscan. It's so awesome, but there's not nearly enough known of it to be able to learn it very well. :cry:
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Re: Etruscan

Postby Koko » 2014-08-26, 20:58

I know: it's sad. And the fact that an entire people become extinct all because of the Romans, makes me want to discover everything they left and decipher it ^^ There's so little of their culture known it's almost the saddest thing to ever happen to a society that I care about personally.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: Etruscan

Postby Koko » 2014-08-27, 5:37

Hey, if 16 is huthzar, wouldn't it be likely that 11-15 follow a similar pattern: thuzar, zalzar/esalzar, cizar, etc.? Or is this already attested for :roll: ? Also, has it been stated what -em means? The numbers 17-19 suggest it's a form of the ablative.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: Etruscan

Postby Koko » 2014-08-27, 7:18

Guess what I found?!

On the wikipedia page's bibliography for Etruscan, I found an Etruscan glossary! Okay, well I didn't directly find it there (or we'd all be speaking the language, obviously), but with some digging around from the google page for The Etruscan Language: An Introduction PDF (I was way too lazy to check if the book was in my city somewhere), I found the above glossary. Now, it's quite expectedly not a complete list, but the vocabulary is bigger than what I think any of would dream of. And!… the author even gives his opinions on what attested words should be as he gives us cognates and explains his thoughts. Before the list, there is IMO an exceptional description of the language and its phonology and orthography that the wikipedia page overlooks. Trust me, if you are an Etruscologist at heart (who never will be one, though), this PDF shows you how beautiful the Language(whatever the etruscan for it is) Rasnal truly is.

Ooh! If you ever wanted to try and learn Hurrian, most of the cognates mentioned are Hurrian. It's also a good look into the Hurrian language if you've never heard of it and suddenly have a desire to discover it.

-em means minus, so when you say eslem cealch, you're saying thirty minus two.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: Etruscan

Postby Itikar » 2014-08-27, 11:15

Fletto i muscoli e sono nel vuoto!
All corrections are welcome and appreciated.

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Re: Etruscan

Postby Viridzen » 2014-08-31, 21:39

But how do we know that these words come from Hurrian, anyway? This just seems like all those people that use some other language and say, "Look at how I used it to decipher Etruscan!" But, can they actually demonstrate any connection and uniform sound changes between Etruscan (what we know of it certainly, anyways) and anything else? I was going to try to compare Etruscan and some other languages to see, but I never got around to it.
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Re: Etruscan

Postby Lauren » 2014-08-31, 22:00

Hurrian is awesome too. :o It seems we know a lot more about it than Etruscan, and there are more books about it, but I couldn't find a corpus online anywhere. Without anything to read it would be hard to learn.
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Re: Etruscan

Postby Koko » 2014-09-02, 5:18

Viridzen wrote:But how do we know that these words come from Hurrian, anyway? This just seems like all those people that use some other language and say, "Look at how I used it to decipher Etruscan!" But, can they actually demonstrate any connection and uniform sound changes between Etruscan (what we know of it certainly, anyways) and anything else? I was going to try to compare Etruscan and some other languages to see, but I never got around to it.

Well, they weren't using Hurrian for the Etruscan decipherings, but as comparisons. Plus, after so many similarities between it and Etruscan, the comparison method would seem to be much useful. As well, we can't very well just reconstruct Et from Hur, because we have some stuff in Etruscan and what we reconstruct could be proven false. [we= general (people)]

Etruscan and Hurrian come from the same parent, so it's hard to not believe that some Etruscan vocabulary is also from Hurrian.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: Etruscan

Postby Lauren » 2014-09-02, 6:30

Koko wrote:Etruscan and Hurrian come from the same parent, so it's hard to not believe that some Etruscan vocabulary is also from Hurrian.

They do? I've never heard of a proposed link between the Hurro-Urartian and the Tyrsenian families.
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Re: Etruscan

Postby Koko » 2014-09-02, 6:39

I may have misinterpreted the author, but I remember the link I gave suggesting a common parent. I'll attempt to varify by reanalyzing the etymology notes if I can reinterpret them.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: Etruscan

Postby Massimiliano B » 2014-09-25, 9:08

Koko wrote:I know: it's sad. And the fact that an entire people become extinct all because of the Romans, makes me want to discover everything they left and decipher it ^^


We Etruscans are not extinct!! We are still here! :D
Non è tempo di lutti / né di follie. / Questo è tempo di Dio. / Che aspettiamo? / Quale segno? / Quale miracolo? /…. (Elena Bono, Morte di Adamo)

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Re: Etruscan

Postby Koko » 2014-09-27, 23:46

Only partly exist. I'm also a very minute part Etruscan :D

I hope we eventually find more artifacts with written Etruscan so we can learn more of it. Revive Etruscan!
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^


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