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Yiddish - ײדיש - Page 5 - UniLang

Yiddish - ײדיש

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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby Svet » 2011-03-06, 21:50

It's a Germanic language, if we're talking about the Yiddish of German immigrants. Yiddish, spoken by inhabitants of a Slavic country has much more Slavic words. But the point is, it was created by people who originally spoke Hebrew and started mixing it with the local language. Not to mention that it's written with Hebrew letters - what you scribbled above was simply a latinized transliteration.
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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby Yeshua.C » 2011-03-07, 2:23

You didn't correct my text! You changed it!

"to learn" is a reflexive, and retains the reflexive pronoun. The same verb without it means 'to teach'.
Also, I specifically said that I own the same dictionary as the previous poster. Not simply a dictionary.

They spoke Aramaic after Hebrew had ceased to be a spoken language and Hebrew was liturgical only. Later, Aramaic also became a liturgical language almost exclusively, as other languages (Yiddish for example) were spoken. Both being 'loshn koydesh'. There is not too much knowledge on the space between Aramaic and Yiddish (or other languages like Ladino). There are some old Italic words, so perhaps they spoke those. Typically Jews in other people's nations are multilingual, so it's not hard to image Aramaic, Greek, Latin or whatever else, at various times.

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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby RCA » 2011-03-07, 22:12

Svet wrote:It's a Germanic language, if we're talking about the Yiddish of German immigrants. Yiddish, spoken by inhabitants of a Slavic country has much more Slavic words.
Most of the Yiddish speakers lived in the Slavic territories: Ukraine, Belarus, Lithiania, and Poland, and I’m talking about the standard language of those areas. Of course, it has lots of Slavic words and expressions, it has a lot of Hebraisms too, but its vocabulary consists mainly of Germanic words, its grammar is basically Germanic and I doubt very much there is another non-Germanic Yiddish.

Svet wrote:Not to mention that it's written with Hebrew letters - what you scribbled above was simply a latinized transliteration.
I used the transliteration to make the text more readable.

Yeshua.C wrote:"to learn" is a reflexive, and retains the reflexive pronoun. The same verb without it means 'to teach'.
Well, just a couple of examples from my book:

?פֿון װען אָן לערנסטו ייּדיש
Fun ven on lernstu yidish?
.אַלע לערנען אין אולפּן עבֿרית
Ale lernen in ulpan ivrit. (It’s about Yiddish speakers learning Hebrew in Israel)
זי איז אַ סטודענטקע. זי לערנט אין מאָסקװער אוניװערסיטעט.
Zi iz a studentke. Zi lernt in moskver universitet.

BUT

?װי לערנט זיך דײַן זון
Vi lernt zikh dayn zun?

^^ I guess you can see the difference. :)

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Yeshua.C wrote:Also, I specifically said that I own the same dictionary as the previous poster. Not simply a dictionary.
Sorry, I hadn’t read the previous post.
Last edited by RCA on 2011-03-07, 22:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby Prosper_Youplaboum » 2011-03-07, 22:15

Most of the Yiddish speakers lived in the Slavic territories: Ukraine, Belarus, Lithiania


Lithuania is not a Slavic country, it's a Baltic one (Lithuanian is a Baltic language) ;)
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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby RCA » 2011-03-07, 22:21

Of course, it isn't, but there are three local varieties of the standard Yiddsh: Ukrainian, Polish, and Belarusian-Lithuanian, so I mentioned Lithuania in order not to limit one of the varieties to Belarus. :) Perhaps I should have written it in parentheses.
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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby Svet » 2011-03-07, 22:51

RCA wrote: but its vocabulary consists mainly of Germanic words, its grammar is basically Germanic and I doubt very much there is another non-Germanic Yiddish.


I think you're making the mistake of ignoring one of Yiddish's main characteristics - syncretism. There is Western Yiddish, there is Eastern Yiddish, there is South Yiddish and so on. They all have a different vocabulary, because they're borrowing from the main language of different countries. Then there is Ladino, which is being built on exactly the same principle, but in Spain and Portugal. That's one.

Second, this language has the role of enabling the communication exclusively between Hebrew-speakers. It is a common phenomenon - people live in a country, different than their own, they start using single foreign words, because they get use to them. When this happens over centuries, while the new generations become more and more integrated into society and less able to speak their mother language, the original Hebrew evolves into Yiddish. So, Yiddish is not a Germanic language - viewed historically, culturally or socially. It simply borrows a lot of German words and grammar, the same way that it borrows a lot of Slavic words in Eastern Europe. The same way that Ladino borrows from Spanish.

Third: because it is not only spoken only by Jewish people, but it is also written with Hebrew letters - which binds the language not only genetically, but also lexically to Hebrew. Not to mention that Hebrew is a very valuable and also unique thread, connecting Yiddish with Ladino. You cannot make a sense of the language, you cannot get into it and behind its history, if you cut it off Hebrew. And vice versa - Hebrew was revived, after centuries of resting in oblivion, thanks to the traces it left in Yiddish. Yiddish kept Hebrew alive, the way Hebrew once gave life to Yiddish.

Finally, I simply think, Yiddish could be moved to the Hebrew forum, because this way it won't get lost among thousands of other posts. :mrgreen:
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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby RCA » 2011-03-08, 14:30

Svet wrote: I think you're making the mistake of ignoring one of Yiddish's main characteristics - syncretism. There is Western Yiddish, there is Eastern Yiddish, there is South Yiddish and so on. They all have a different vocabulary, because they're borrowing from the main language of different countries. Then there is Ladino, which is being built on exactly the same principle, but in Spain and Portugal. That's one.

Second, this language has the role of enabling the communication exclusively between Hebrew-speakers. It is a common phenomenon - people live in a country, different than their own, they start using single foreign words, because they get use to them. When this happens over centuries, while the new generations become more and more integrated into society and less able to speak their mother language, the original Hebrew evolves into Yiddish.
I think we’re talking about different things. You’re talking about the languages of the Jewish people (which are extremely different from the linguistic point of view), while I’m talking about just one of them, that is Yiddish, which linguistically is essentially and evidently Germanic, there can be no doubt about that. Don’t forget that Yiddish and old Hebrew coexisted in Europe, the former mainly as the spoken (and later as the literary) language, while the latter as the language of the liturgy (it is similar in that to, say, Ukrainian or Russian and Church Slavonic). As to the dialects of Yiddish, there are western and eastern groups of dialects, the standard language is based on the eastern dialects (that is Lithuanian-Belarusian, Ukrainian, and Polish), since the spoken dialects of the western Jews were mainly replaced by the non-Yiddish languages.

Svet wrote:So, Yiddish is not a Germanic language - viewed historically, culturally or socially. It simply borrows a lot of German words and grammar, the same way that it borrows a lot of Slavic words in Eastern Europe. The same way that Ladino borrows from Spanish.
Well, I think languages should be viewed first of all linguistically, otherwise we’ll have a real linguistic mess. From the linguistic point of view, Ladino is quite another language belonging to another linguistic group.

Svet wrote:Third: because it is not only spoken only by Jewish people, but it is also written with Hebrew letters - which binds the language not only genetically, but also lexically to Hebrew.
I can’t understand how the Hebraic script can bind a language lexically to Hebrew. Some Turkic languages used the Hebraic script, but they were Turkic, not Semitic. Some Slavic languages use the Latin script, but this can tell really little about their vocabulary, and so on...

Svet wrote:Finally, I simply think, Yiddish could be moved to the Hebrew forum, because this way it won't get lost among thousands of other posts. :mrgreen:
Well, I find it a bit weird to discuss in one section languages from different linguistic families.
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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby Svet » 2011-03-08, 14:47

Lithuanian has nothing to do with Belarusian, why do you write then with a dash?
I guess you're ignoring all my cultural arguments. Fine. Learn your Yiddish without soul and spirit, you hateful, ungrateful Linguist!!! I will gather all Hebrew-lovers, alllllll of them and will be back!

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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby RCA » 2011-03-08, 16:51

Svet wrote:Lithuanian has nothing to do with Belarusian, why do you write then with a dash?
I was talking about the dialects of Yiddish, not about Lithuanian or Bealrusian. :)

Just a couple of phonetical examples for you to understand what I mean (written is the pronunciation!), there are also grammatical and lexical differences.

Standard Yiddish:

1. hast (guest, Gast)
2. tog (day, Tag)
3. yor (year, Jahr)
4. zumer (summer, Sommer)
5. hoyf (yard, Hof)
6. boykh (stomach, Bauch)
7. keyt (chain, Kette)
8. kez (cheese, Käse)
9. vayn (wine, Wein)
10. fraynt (friend, Freund)
11. shney (snow, Schnee)
12. hant (hand, Hand)

Lithuanian-Belarusian spoken variety of Yiddish:

1. hast
2. tog
3. yor
4. zumer
5. heyf
6. boykh, buykh, boukh
7. keyt
8. kez
9. vayn
10. fraynt
11. shney, sney
12. hant

Ukrainian spoken variety:

1. hast, host
2. tug
3. yur
4. zimer
5. hoyf
6. buykh, boykh
7. keyt
8. keyz
9. vayn, van
10. fraynt
11. shney
12. ant, hant

Polish spoken variety:

1. ha:st
2. tu:g
3. yu:r, yuer
4. zimer
5. hoyf
6. bo:kh, boukh
7. kayt
8. keyz
9. va:n
10. frant
11. shnay
12. hant

Svet wrote:I guess you're ignoring all my cultural arguments. Fine. Learn your Yiddish without soul and spirit, you hateful, ungrateful Linguist!!! I will gather all Hebrew-lovers, alllllll of them and will be back!
Maybe it’s just a bit wrong forum for the ‘cultural arguments’? ;)
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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby ILuvEire » 2011-03-14, 6:33

I think that Yiddish should be moved to the Hebrew forum, because it's spoken mostly by Jews (like Hebrew) and most of the people interested in Yiddish are also interested in Hebrew. I mean, there's a thread on Okinawan in the Ainu forum, even though the two aren't genetically related, it may as well go there as anywhere else. That's how I feel about Yiddish.

EDIT: Also, I mean, what is Yiddish without Yiddishkeit? It's just a funny German dialect. You can't separate the language from the culture any more than you can with any other language, but, also, the interesting linguistic features of Yiddish are tied up with Yiddishkeit as well (in particular, the use of loans and all of the cool and interesting places people get these loans from).

Hey you guys, tell us, why do you learn Yiddish? For me:
1) My zayde and bubbe both speak Yiddish (well, okay, my zayde is more like Yinglish, but I digress)
2) I love studying etymology, and pretty much every word in Yiddish has this amazing, interesting history.
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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby ILuvEire » 2011-03-14, 6:46

RCA wrote:A gutn ownt, ...!
Wos macht ir?
Far wos lernt ir jidisch?
Ich hob ojch a werterbichl!

(I’ve corrected a bit the original text).

And the translation:

Guten Abend, ...!
Wie geht es euch? (literally: was macht ihr?)
Warum (l.: für was) lernt ihr Jiddisch?
Ich habe auch ein kleines Wörterbuch (l.: Wörterbüchelchen)
You can't really say Wörterbüchelchen. The Yiddish diminutive comes from the same -lein that makes Fräulein. In the South and in Austria, they prefer -lein to -chen, and it's frequently shortened to just -el. So, just like Yiddish has bisl, Austrian German has bissel (and other German dialects use bisschen).

Also, with you transliteration, YIVO prefers something like this:
A gutn ovnt
Vos makht ir?
Far Vos lernt ir yidish?
Ikh hob oych a werterbikhl!

Geez, I hate writing Yiddish. It's meant to be spoken.
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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby Yeshua.C » 2011-03-14, 7:51

Bah, YIVO! After learning a bit of Yiddish, I started to not really like klal-yiddish. I prefer dialects, they are very fun. Alas, it's the only real path to while learning it alone. Switching to dialect later is my intention (poylish, preferably).

Hopefully I'll get to start it again next year. Maybe a Yiddish club could be formed. Some people here know how passionate I am about it! :)

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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby Svet » 2011-03-14, 9:28

ILuvEire wrote:In the South and in Austria, they prefer -lein to -chen, and it's frequently shortened to just -el. So, just like Yiddish has bisl, Austrian German has bissel (and other German dialects use bisschen).


Actually in the South and Austria they speak Bayerisch ( :mrgreen: ) and the shortening is normally not "-el" but mostly "-le". In the case of "ein bisschen", you can both shorten it to "bissel" and "bissle", but with other words the "-el" ending might actually make the word sound bigger and more threatening rather than shortening it. The "-le" on the other hand has exactly the opposite function - it can make a little word even tinier. It's a bit like:
bisschen - a little bit
bissle - a little little bit
bissel - "I am telling you a little bit in order to show myself humble, but not so little, after all, you stingy man!"
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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby KonoMichi » 2011-10-10, 19:56

הַלו!
איך בין אַ אָנהייבער יידיש לערנער!
ווו האָט איר געלערנט יידיש?
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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby Imyirtseshem » 2012-01-15, 8:42

.

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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby Babelfish » 2012-05-04, 16:05

I want to start learning Yiddish too, having perfected my knowledge of my other languages... (yeah right! :mrgreen: )
Anyone knows useful online resources for beginners? I've found http://www.yiddishdictionaryonline.com/ from the Wikipedia article, but I'm still looking for grammar resources. Frankly I'm more into written stuff.
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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby Lauren » 2012-05-04, 16:19

Omniglot has links for many languages, maye you'll find something you'd like there.

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/yiddish.htm
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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby BezierCurve » 2012-05-04, 16:51

Some grammar stuff I bookmarked once.

EDIT: I suppose German will be next? :P
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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby Reinder » 2012-05-04, 16:59

BezierCurve wrote:EDIT: I suppose German will be next? :P
German is just bad Yiddish and vice versa.
Yiddish is a very special language, it's pretty cool, but I should first learn German up to fluency. :)
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Babelfish
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Re: Yiddish - ײדיש

Postby Babelfish » 2012-05-11, 22:26

BezierCurve wrote:EDIT: I suppose German will be next? :P

I doubt it, I tend to study languages which are quite different from each other, which makes them more interesting :) Thanks for the links!
Native languages: Hebrew (he) & English (en)

מן המקום בו אנו צודקים לא יפרחו לעולם פרחים באביב (יהודה עמיחי)
From the place where we are in the right, flowers will never grow in the spring (Yhuda Amihay)


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