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Spanish - IpseDixit - UniLang

Spanish - IpseDixit

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Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-11-13, 10:49

Hello, I have a phonology question:

In some videos I've heard the word español pronounced as eppañol and Israel pronounced as Irrael.

Is this thing typical of any regions in particular or what else?

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Re: Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby Serafín » 2013-12-13, 21:44

Most likely, you misheard the [hp] and [hr] of [ehpaˈɲol] and [ihraˈel] as Italian's [p:] and [r:]. Tricks your brain is playing to you, basically. Pronouncing /s/ as [h] before /p t k/ and /r/ is extremely common, it basically happens everywhere except Northern Spain, large parts of Mexico and the Andes. I'd appreciate a link to the video to confirm it though.

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Re: Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-12-13, 21:52

Thanks :) don't remember the videos actually :|

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Re: Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby PiotrR » 2013-12-13, 22:18

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO
Last edited by PiotrR on 2014-04-01, 22:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby Serafín » 2013-12-13, 23:11

PiotrR wrote:At least that's what I found by Googling "fósforo fófforo" :P
Link?

...That assimilates to the POA of the following consonant? I guess it's possible to describe /s/ as "[ɸ]" before /p/, e.g. español [eɸpaˈɲol], but that'd be a very weak, very [h]-like [ɸ]. I doubt this could be done before /b/ though. Las veces "[laβˈβeθes]"? Surely it'd be [lazˈβeθes]. But perhaps you found a paper on this?

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Re: Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby PiotrR » 2013-12-14, 5:41

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO
Last edited by PiotrR on 2014-04-01, 22:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-01-19, 13:14

Is it wrong to use these accented letters: à, ì, ù instead of the conventional ones with the acute accent?

I mean, unlike è vs é and ò vs ó, they shouldn't have any phonetic value, right?

So, for instance, is it wrong if I write instead of , serà instead of será or ùnico instead of único?

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Re: Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby Iván » 2014-01-19, 14:34

Well, I'm not really up-to-date with current spelling rules, but as far as I know, nobody uses those accented letters you mentioned in Spanish. On the other hand, Catalan uses them, since è and é are different —I think it happens the same in Italian— whereas this doesn't happen in Spanish.
Minkä nuorena oppii, sen vanhana taitaa.

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Re: Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby Youngfun » 2014-03-03, 8:51

But Italian keyboard doesn't have the acute accent on á í ó ú, it only has é... so it's just for convenience of typing if many Italians write mì, serà, ùnico :)

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Re: Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby loqu » 2014-03-11, 10:19

IpseDixit wrote:Is it wrong to use these accented letters: à, ì, ù instead of the conventional ones with the acute accent?

I mean, unlike è vs é and ò vs ó, they shouldn't have any phonetic value, right?

So, for instance, is it wrong if I write instead of , serà instead of será or ùnico instead of único?

Como Iván comentaba, estos acentos no se usan en castellano.
As Iván told you before, those accents aren't used in Spanish.

Si los utilizas, se entiende que querías utilizar los otros, pero ten en cuenta que no es correcta su utilización. :)
If you use them, it's understood that you meant to use the acute ones, but keep in mind that is not proper orthography :)

¿No podrías instalar una disposición de teclado que te permitiera utilizar los acentos correctos? ¿O un corrector ortográfico en tu navegador? Si usas Firefox tienes unos cuantos para descargar (yo tengo instalado el de España), y para Chrome también hay.
Can't you install a keyboard layout which would allow you to use the right accents? Or a spelling checker on your browser? If you're on Firefox there are several ones to download (I've got the Spain one installed), and for Chrome there are some as well.
De tant que et vull, et trac un ull.
Qui no vulga pols, que no vaja a l'era.

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Re: Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-17, 13:43

Can you correct my translation of this Aesop's tale?

The Bee and Jupiter La abeja y Júpiter


A bee from Mount Hymettus, the queen of the hive, ascended to
Una abeja del Monte Himeto, la reína de la colmena, ascendió al
Olympus to present Jupiter some honey fresh from her combs.
Olimpo para presentar a Júpiter algo miel fresco desde sus panales
Jupiter, delighted with the offering of honey, promised to give
Júpiter, encantado de la oferta, prometió de darle
whatever she should ask. She therefore besought him, saying,
cualquier cosa ella preguntase. Por lo tanto ella le suplicó, diciendo,
"Give me, I pray thee, a sting, that if any mortal shall approach
"Dame, te imploro, un aguijón, así que cualquier mortal que pudiese acercarse
to take my honey, I may kill him." Jupiter was much displeased,
para tomar mi miel, podré matarlo." Júpiter fue muy discontento
for he loved the race of man, but could not refuse the request
como él amaba la raza de los hombres, pero no podía rehusar la demanda
because of his promise. He thus answered the Bee: "You shall
por causa de su promesa. Así él respondió a la abeja: "habrás
have your request, but it will be at the peril of your own life.
lo que preguntaste, peró será a riesgo de tu propia vida.
For if you use your sting, it shall remain in the wound you make,
Porque si lo usará, podrá quedar en la herida que tú haces.
and then you will die from the loss of it."
y después morirás por la pérdida de él.

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Re: Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby loqu » 2014-05-17, 14:26

Una abeja del Monte Himeto, la reina de la colmena, ascendió al
Olimpo para presentar a Júpiter algo de miel fresca desde de sus panales.
Júpiter, encantado de la oferta, prometió de darle
cualquier cosa que ella preguntase pidiese. Por lo tanto ella le suplicó, diciendo,
"Dame, te imploro, un aguijón, así que a cualquier mortal que pudiese acercarse
para tomar mi miel, podré matarlo." Júpiter fue muy discontento se disgustó mucho
como pues él amaba la raza de los hombres, pero no podía rehusar la demanda
por causa de su promesa. Así él respondió a la abeja: "habrás tendrás
lo que preguntaste pediste, pero será a riesgo de tu propia vida.
Porque si lo usará usas, podrá quedar en la herida que haces hagas.
y después morirás por la pérdida de él.

Me ha costado corregirlo porque el lenguaje pretende ser poético, así que hay cosas que no suenan bien que no he cambiado porque en un registro literario sí son aceptables.

Si no entiendes alguna corrección dilo y te explico mis motivos.
De tant que et vull, et trac un ull.
Qui no vulga pols, que no vaja a l'era.

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Re: Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-17, 14:46

Thanks loqu, could you please mark those which are the real mistakes and those which are the things that didn't sound very well although not ungrammatical in two different ways?

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Re: Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby loqu » 2014-05-17, 17:18

Sólo he marcado los errores gramaticales, IpseDixit. El único con el que dudo es con el último, haces/hagas, porque haces es gramatical, pero el matiz que aporta no encaja con la situación.

I only marked grammar mistakes, IpseDixit. The only one I doubt about is the last one, haces/hagas, where haces is grammatical, but the nuance it gives doesn't match the situation.
De tant que et vull, et trac un ull.
Qui no vulga pols, que no vaja a l'era.

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Re: Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-17, 17:24

What's wrong with fue muy discontento?

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Re: Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby loqu » 2014-05-17, 18:05

IpseDixit wrote:What's wrong with fue muy discontento?


- The word is descontento.
- You'd never use ser with descontento, rather estar.
- Júpiter estuvo muy descontento sounds off, in the sense that it sounds as if it didn't have any relation to the facts just described; that choice of words gives the meaning that he had been unhappy already before the bee talked to him. So, rather than saying that he was unhappy, you'd prefer to say that he got unhappy by hearing what the bee asked for.

But I admit this last point makes a grey area, so you can go for Júpiter estuvo muy descontento and let the readers figure out.
De tant que et vull, et trac un ull.
Qui no vulga pols, que no vaja a l'era.

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Re: Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby Saim » 2014-05-17, 20:43

Querubín wrote:Most likely, you misheard the [hp] and [hr] of [ehpaˈɲol] and [ihraˈel] as Italian's [p:] and [r:].


En catalán es [iraˈel] 100%, que no [izɾaˈel] o [ihɾaˈel]. Yo sí que lo pronuncio así en castellano, y seguramente muchos catalanoparlantes también lo hacen. Pero claro, no deja de ser un acento extranjero...
ماں بولی = قومی بولی

پنجابی بولو، پنجابی پڑھو، پنجابی لکھو

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Re: Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby loqu » 2014-05-17, 21:50

[sr] es un grupo consonántico problemático. No sé en Latinoamérica, Querubín, pero por aquí sólo se pronuncia ortográficamente cuando se cuida especialmente la pronunciación. En registros coloquiales, [sr] pasa a [r] o [r:] en muchos lugares; en Andalucía porque aborrecemos la [s] final de sílaba, y en Madrid porque allí el rotacismo es el pan de cada día (oyes cosas como [doɾˈθjentos]).
De tant que et vull, et trac un ull.
Qui no vulga pols, que no vaja a l'era.

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Re: Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-18, 13:12

Another one



Jupiter, Neptune, Minerva, and Momus Júpiter, Neptuno, Minerva, y Momo


Acording to an ancient legend, the first man was made by
Según una antigua leyenda, el primero hombre fue creído por
Jupiter, the first bull by Neptune, and the first house by
Júpiter, el primero toro por Neptuno, y la primera casa por
Minerva. On the completion of their labors, a dispute arose as
Minerva. Una vez que su trabajo fue terminado, nació una disputa
to which had made the most perfect work. They agreed to appoint
sobre quién había hecho el trabajo mas perfecto. Ellos concordaron en hacher
Momus as judge, and to abide by his decision. Momus, however,
Momo su juez, y en aceptar su decisión. Momo, pero,
being very envious of the handicraft of each, found fault with
estando muy envidioso de la artesanía de cada uno, encontrió unos defectos
all. He first blamed the work of Neptune because he had not made
en todos. En primer lugar, culpó el trabajo de Neptuno porque no había hecho
the horns of the bull below his eyes, so he might better see
los cuernos del toro debajo de sus ojos, de modo que pudiese ver de manera mejora
where to strike. He then condemned the work of Jupiter, because
donde golpear. Después condenó el trabajo de Júpiter, porque
he had not placed the heart of man on the outside, that everyone
no había puesto el corazón del hombre por fuera, de modo que todos
might read the thoughts of the evil disposed and take precautions
pudiesen leer los pensamientos de los malvados y tomar precauciones
against the intended mischief. And, lastly, he inveighed against
contra las planeadas travesuras. Y, finalmente, vituperó
Minerva because she had not contrived iron wheels in the
Minerva porque no había ideado ruedas de hierro en el
foundation of her house, so its inhabitants might more easily
fundamento de su casa, de modo que sus moradores pudiesen moverse mas fácilmente
remove if a neighbor proved unpleasant. Jupiter, indignant at
si un vecino se probase de ser desagradable. Júpiter, indignado por
such inveterate faultfinding, drove him from his office of judge,
tal crítica iveterada, lo llevó desde su servicio de juez,
and expelled him from the mansions of Olympus.
y lo expelío desde las mansiónes del Olimpo.

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Re: Spanish - IpseDixit

Postby loqu » 2014-05-18, 18:51

IpseDixit wrote:Según una antigua leyenda, el primero hombre fue creado por
Júpiter, el primero toro por Neptuno, y la primera casa por
Minerva. Una vez que su trabajo fue terminado, nació (surgió) una disputa
sobre quién había hecho el trabajo mas perfecto. Ellos concordaron en (acordaron) hacher
a Momo su juez, y en aceptar su decisión. Momo, pero sin embargo,
estando (el verbo está bien, pero puedes quitarlo) muy envidioso de la artesanía de cada uno, encontrió unos defectos
en todos. En primer lugar, culpó el trabajo de Neptuno porque no había hecho
los cuernos del toro debajo de sus ojos, de modo que pudiese ver de manera mejora (sería mejor si sólo dijeras: mejor)
dónde golpear. Después condenó el trabajo de Júpiter, porque
no había puesto el corazón del hombre por fuera, de modo que todos
pudiesen leer los pensamientos de los malvados y tomar precauciones
contra las planeadas travesuras (maldades). Y, finalmente, vituperó
a Minerva porque no había ideado ruedas de hierro en el
fundamento
los cimientos de su casa, de modo que sus moradores pudiesen moverse más fácilmente
si un vecino se probase de demostrase ser desagradable. Júpiter, indignado por
tal tanta crítica inveterada (reiterada), lo llevó apartó desde su servicio de juez,
y lo expel (expulsó) desde las mansiónes del Olimpo.


Rojo son las correcciones necesarias (errores).
Naranja son las correcciones estilísticas (lo que pusiste es correcto, pero hay otras opciones).
Azul son otros comentarios.

- concordar en algo me suena mal. No me arriesgo a decir que esté mal, pero es mejor acordar algo (sin preposición).
- travesuras es una palabra infantil, son cosas hechas por niños sin maldad y sin consecuencias graves. Por eso te he puesto entre paréntesis maldades.
- inveteradas es una palabra que no he oído jamás, aunque por lo que he visto, existe.
De tant que et vull, et trac un ull.
Qui no vulga pols, que no vaja a l'era.


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