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Usage of "pues" (split from Wanderlust 2) - UniLang

Usage of "pues" (split from Wanderlust 2)

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Usage of "pues" (split from Wanderlust 2)

Postby dEhiN » 2014-07-03, 16:37

loqu wrote:
dEhiN wrote:¿Por qué no incluyes punyabí en tu nueva firma?

Ciarán12 wrote:De nada.

En cuanto al punyabí, en este momento sólo tengo una intención, nada más concreto. Pues Bueno, una intención y un curso TY ;).

Thanks for the corrections! Why is it better to say "bueno" instead of "pues"? Could Ciarán12 have said "entonces" instead? Also, for "punyabí", since the accent is on the "i", does that make the stress on the 3rd syllable?

mōdgethanc wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:I guess this will make me a Unilanger of B series... :lol:
What does that mean? Like a second-class citizen?

Don't you use that expression in English? We do in Spanish, it comes from the movies, where B series mean movies with low budget and novice actors.

As mentioned already, we say (here in North America) "B movie", but it's only application is for a movie. For example, I don't think I've even heard it applied to a play or a video, which could be construed as being similar in form. And we certainly never apply it to people. We would say "second-class citizen".

What about in Spanish? Can you apply "B series" to people?
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Re: Wanderlust Support Group 2

Postby loqu » 2014-07-03, 16:50

dEhiN wrote:Thanks for the corrections! Why is it better to say "bueno" instead of "pues"? Could Ciarán12 have said "entonces" instead? Also, for "punyabí", since the accent is on the "i", does that make the stress on the 3rd syllable?


Saying "Pues," is something lots of learners do, but I don't know where they got the idea from. I guess lots of teachers of Spanish as a foreign language teach it, but it sounds absolutely wrong. "Well," translates into Spanish as "Bueno," most of the time; for example, in this case, where you want to explain better or correct what you said.

You can use pues to begin a sentence sometimes, but never with a comma.

I had to look up the name of that language on Wikipedia, since I've never read about it in Spanish. And yes, in that case, the stress would be on the 3rd syllable, [punʝaˈβi].

dEhiN wrote:As mentioned already, we say (here in North America) "B movie", but it's only application is for a movie. For example, I don't think I've even heard it applied to a play or a video, which could be construed as being similar in form. And we certainly never apply it to people. We would say "second-class citizen".

What about in Spanish? Can you apply "B series" to people?


It's not normally used for people, but you can use it in certain situations, like the one IpseDixit tried to say in English. Supongo que eso me convierte en un Unilanger de serie B... even though it's more common to say "de segunda", supongo que eso me convierte en un Unilanger de segunda.
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Re: Wanderlust Support Group 2

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-07-03, 17:02

loqu wrote:Saying "Pues," is something lots of learners do, but I don't know where they got the idea from. I guess lots of teachers of Spanish as a foreign language teach it, but it sounds absolutely wrong. "Well," translates into Spanish as "Bueno," most of the time; for example, in this case, where you want to explain better or correct what you said.

You can use pues to begin a sentence sometimes, but never with a comma.


I will try to default to bueno from now on then. I never learned bueno in that sense in school, only pues, I sometimes do use bueno now but only after having heard natives use it (though, obviously, I didn't know pues was wrong). What kind of sentences would you start with pues then? Also, while we're at it, can you use vamos in all the same situations as bueno? And how about mira? That seems to be used more like "well" in English than "look..." is. Maybe this is a question for the Spanish forum....
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Re: Wanderlust Support Group 2

Postby Aóristos » 2014-07-03, 17:50

Ciarán12 wrote:Also, while we're at it, can you use vamos in all the same situations as bueno?

I think you're thinking about vaya, but I could be wrong.
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Re: Wanderlust Support Group 2

Postby loqu » 2014-07-03, 18:02

I had never thought till now how tricky these "connectors" are in Spanish.

Vamos isn't a full synonym of bueno, but they overlap in the same situations. You can indeed use it for specifying, as in your previous sentence. I get the feeling it's much more used in Europe than in America though. Michael's suggestion vaya works as well.

Mira has a broader meaning than look; I'd say you use it when you want to focus the attention of someone. You wouldn't use it in your sentence above.
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Re: Wanderlust Support Group 2

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-07-03, 18:09

loqu wrote:I had never thought till now how tricky these "connectors" are in Spanish.


Nor had I until you corrected me and I started thinking about them :wink:

loqu wrote:Vamos isn't a full synonym of bueno, but they overlap in the same situations. You can indeed use it for specifying, as in your previous sentence. I get the feeling it's much more used in Europe than in America though. Michael's suggestion vaya works as well.


Is vaya an American variation of vamos or could you use it in European Spanish as well? Do they mean (roughly) the same thing?

loqu wrote:Mira has a broader meaning than look; I'd say you use it when you want to focus the attention of someone. You wouldn't use it in your sentence above.


Yeah, I didn't think so, I've just noticed that it's used more than "look..." is in English (which makes the sentence sound quite serious - "Look, I don't know how to tell you this, but I'm sleeping with your wife").
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Re: Wanderlust Support Group 2

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-07-03, 18:40

johnklepac wrote:How the penis do I go back to the old Japanese keyboard layout - the one where you type using the Latin alphabet rather than each key being wired to a specific kana?

I think you just go to your control panel (or the closest equivalent to that on your computer), go to "languages" or something, and add the Japanese IME or whatever. It depends, really; what OS do you use? (You're not still using Windows 8, are you? :hmm:).
loqu wrote:Saying "Pues," is something lots of learners do, but I don't know where they got the idea from. I guess lots of teachers of Spanish as a foreign language teach it, but it sounds absolutely wrong. "Well," translates into Spanish as "Bueno," most of the time; for example, in this case, where you want to explain better or correct what you said.

You can use pues to begin a sentence sometimes, but never with a comma.

It's not necessarily something we got from our Spanish teachers, you know. I mean, I didn't. The rule that you mentioned in your last sentence in this quote is pretty subtle, so I think it's likely that a lot of us learners just didn't know about that subtle aspect of using pues.

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Re: Wanderlust Support Group 2

Postby loqu » 2014-07-03, 18:57

I have had to look in my grammar book because I didn't have a clue when we use pues. It turns out it serves as a support to introduce an answer (- ¿Qué has comido? - Pues he comido lentejas) or introduces a statement that contrasts a previous one (- En mi pueblo no hay ratas. - Pues en el mío hay muchas.)

(There's also the causal use, equivalent with porque, as in No quiso venir pues estaba enfermo).

You can use vaya in European Spanish as well. Hoy ha venido mucha gente. Vaya/vamos, quince personas. There's a subtle difference with bueno: you'd use vaya/vamos when you try to be more specific, but bueno when you slightly modify the meaning. Like in Ciarán's sentence before: Sólo tengo la intención. Bueno, la intención y un libro. You're slightly changing the meaning.

Mi primo llegó esta mañana. Bueno, llegó y se fue, no estuvo ni cinco minutos.
Ayer vi a tu amiga. Bueno, a tu amiga y a su novio, que iba con ella.
Se me han quedado pequeñas todas las camisetas. Bueno, todas menos la verde, que aún me entra.

Mañana saldré de trabajar muy tarde; vamos, a las cinco.
Estoy harto de comer, vamos, que tengo ganas de vomitar.
Lleva cinco años sin hacerse un reconocimiento médico, vamos, que no sabe cómo está de salud.

You can use vaya in these three last sentences.

Ask if you have any doubt (if you guys want, we can continue on the Spanish forum).
De tant que et vull, et trac un ull.
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Re: Wanderlust Support Group 2

Postby Marah » 2014-07-03, 18:58

loqu wrote:
You can use pues to begin a sentence sometimes, but never with a comma.

What about "¡Pues, lo que yo había dicho! ¡Pues, se salió con la suya!"?
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

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Re: Wanderlust Support Group 2

Postby loqu » 2014-07-03, 19:00

No, you wouldn't use a comma there :para: Some people may write it because they perceive a slight pause in the intonation, but it's not right. The whole sentence forms a grammatical unit you can't break with the comma.
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Re: Wanderlust Support Group 2

Postby Marah » 2014-07-03, 19:02

http://www.goodrae.es/definicion.php?palabra=Pues
We can't even trust websites with "rae" in their name anymore...
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

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Re: Wanderlust Support Group 2

Postby loqu » 2014-07-03, 19:07

:shock: thanks for the link. It's a copy-paste of the official RAE definition, but then again it introduces pues in a situation I haven't ever seen: as an interjection. So, for them, "pues, se salió con la suya" would be like "claro, se salió con la suya". That is really weird.

The overwhelming use of pues is the one on numbers 4 and 6:
6. conj. U. a principio de cláusula para apoyarla o encarecer lo dicho en ella. Pues como iba diciendo. ¡Pues no faltaba más!

And this is the one I was speaking about all the time.
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Re: Wanderlust Support Group 2

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-07-03, 19:10

Marah wrote:http://www.goodrae.es/definicion.php?palabra=Pues
We can't even trust websites with "rae" in their name anymore...

How do you know loqu is right and the RAE is wrong? :P

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Re: Wanderlust Support Group 2

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-07-03, 19:17

I don't know what "connectors" is supposed to mean here. Conjunctions? Interjections? Both?
loqu wrote:Don't you use that expression in English?
No.
IpseDixit wrote:Yes exactly. I thought such expression was used in English too.
I don't know where you got that idea, because I've never heard it in my life.

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Re: Wanderlust Support Group 2

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-07-03, 19:32

mōdgethanc wrote:I don't know what "connectors" is supposed to mean here. Conjunctions? Interjections? Both?


That's a good question. What part(s) of speech are "well....", "see...", "look..." etc. part of? I'm not great at classifying words into their correct parts of speech categories beyond verbs, nouns, adjectives, pronouns and adverbs (and even then only adverbialised adjectives or easy to spot)...
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Re: Wanderlust Support Group 2

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-03, 19:40

Ciarán12 wrote:That's a good question. What part(s) of speech are "well....", "see...", "look..." etc. part of?

Traditionally? Interjections.

I'm not sure how more modern analyses would class them. I don't think I've encountred any attempts.
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Re: Wanderlust Support Group 2

Postby Marah » 2014-07-03, 20:26

vijayjohn wrote:
Marah wrote:http://www.goodrae.es/definicion.php?palabra=Pues
We can't even trust websites with "rae" in their name anymore...

How do you know loqu is right and the RAE is wrong? :P

That's because you don't know loqu very well yet. :P
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

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Re: Wanderlust Support Group 2

Postby loqu » 2014-07-04, 6:58

Marah wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Marah wrote:http://www.goodrae.es/definicion.php?palabra=Pues
We can't even trust websites with "rae" in their name anymore...

How do you know loqu is right and the RAE is wrong? :P

That's because you don't know loqu very well yet. :P

:oops:
it's funny because at first I wouldn't trust a site called 'good RAE', the name suggests they are trying to compete with RAE or something. But it seems the definitions are exactly the ones on the official site.

To throw more light on the issue, let's see the definition on the María Moliner dictionary (one of the most used). Its use as an interjection isn't described, and in the numerous examples, the only instances with Pues and a comma are the ones where the comma is required because of the presence of an inserted vocative.
Pues, hijo, pensé que vendrías. --> Pues pensé que vendrías with hijo inserted.
De tant que et vull, et trac un ull.
Qui no vulga pols, que no vaja a l'era.

vijayjohn
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Re: Usage of "pues" (split from Wanderlust 2)

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-08-14, 0:01

loqu wrote:Ask if you have any doubt (if you guys want, we can continue on the Spanish forum).

Ahora que este hilo está en este foro, nadie no dice nada. :P

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Aóristos
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Re: Usage of "pues" (split from Wanderlust 2)

Postby Aóristos » 2014-08-14, 2:00

¿Será porque ya no le queda duda a nadie?
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