It's a phoneme; it's not going to have an "IPA value", only particular allophones of it will. Moreover, the default allophone varies regionally with [x] more common in the North of the Iberian Peninsula and [h] elsewhere.xBlackWolfx wrote:Can anyone tell me what the IPA value of this phoneme actually is? Just point to it in the IPA and I can figure out how to pronounce it from there.
That's the legacy of colonialism for you!mōdgethanc wrote:Odd that it's typically written /x/ when it seems [h] is more widespread.
How many native speakers from Spain have you heard?xBlackWolfx wrote:I've never ever heard a native speaker pronounce a velar fricative.
What does that even mean? An [h] is aspiration.xBlackWolfx wrote:In addition, I've found a few references claiming that some people pronounce it as an aspirated h.
Català in Catalan. But in English we just say "Catalan".Ashrak wrote:I meant to say castellano, not catalá.
whutAshrak wrote:Furthermore, your example with german doesn't stick. As ch is traditionaly read as /x/ it can be read even as english 'k' or english 'sh', depending on regional variant.
No, the normative pronunciation is [ç][*], which is similar to the initial sound in English Hugh. Using [x] here is a dialectal feature associated with Switzerland and other Alemannic-speaking areas. In fact, the colloquial terms for [ç] and [x] in German are Ich-Laut and Ach-Laut, respectively.Ashrak wrote:The word Ich (I) the proper german pronunciation the CH is ch as in scotish loch (I believe that is the sound referenced by /x/)
Ik is a feature of traditional Berlinisch, but with so many new residents it's a regressive one nowadays. [ʃ] is associated not so much with Saxony but with the Rhineland.in saxony can be pronounced as sh in english 'ship', around Berlin it is pronounced more like a k in english 'king'.
The rules for initial /ç/ are different with [kʰ] (bzw. [g̥ʰ]) dominating in the South of Germany plus Switzerland and Austria and [ç] in the North.(the same goes for the word Chemie and others with CH in it)
xBlackWolfx wrote:Did some research on my own on Spanish phonology.
A PDF I found claimed that the most commonly used phones for the letter 'j' are x and h. I've never ever heard a native speaker pronounce a velar fricative. I've only heard it once, and señor Jordan is obviously not a native speaker. The two students in my class from el Salvador clearly pronounce an h. In addition, I've found a few references claiming that some people pronounce it as an aspirated h. I can't actually find a recording of it, but doing it myself actually sounds a lot closer to the 'raspy h' sound you hear Mexicans pronounce. I suspect that this is the sound I thought was a pharyngeal fricative.
I did try a velar fricative once with a native speaker at a Mi Pueblito. He didn't even perceive what I said as Spanish, he thought it was German all because of the velar fricative (note all I said was 'fajitas')! Based off of that experience, and the fact that the native speakers in my class are clearly pronouncing an h anyway, I'm just going to just use h from now on. But I don't get why every source I read claims most dialects use a x, seriously never heard a native speaker pronounce it that way. And if that was more common, why would every Spanish book you find written in English tell you to pronounce an h? My German books never told me to pronounce ch as an h, they just described how to do an x. Of course, that might have been because h is phonemic in German too...
vijayjohn wrote:Wow, I didn't know that [x] was the pronunciation of <j> in most of Mexico.
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