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Deutsch - hashi - Page 2 - UniLang

Deutsch - hashi

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Re: Deutsch - Mrhashimoto

Postby hashi » 2009-09-07, 11:51

I have decided I'm going to make an effort to try and reach some level of understanding in German by the end of the year. My first step is to get myself comfortable with the basic grammar rules. I'm particularly interested at the moment in finding some good resources you can recommend for things like gender agreement, adjective/noun declension, verb conjugation and maybe something on basic word order also.

Tack :)

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Re: Deutsch - Mrhashimoto

Postby loqu » 2009-09-07, 11:53

mrhashimoto wrote:Tack :)


Hey, das ist kein Deutsch :P
Hey, that is no German :P
De tant que et vull, et trac un ull.
Qui no vulga pols, que no vaja a l'era.

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Re: Deutsch - Mrhashimoto

Postby hashi » 2009-09-07, 12:18

loqu wrote:
mrhashimoto wrote:Tack :)


Hey, das ist kein Deutsch :P
Hey, that is no German :P


Det var inte avsedd att vara på tyska.
It was not intended to be in German.

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Re: Deutsch - Mrhashimoto

Postby hashi » 2009-09-08, 12:15

I have made this chart of articles to help me remember them. Just making sure they're correct, and also posting it in case it might be of use to other people.
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Re: Deutsch - Mrhashimoto

Postby linguaholic » 2009-09-08, 17:41

As far as I can see, your chart is correct. I just wonder why you put Accusative second. The "normal" order is nom-gen-dat-acc.

I wonder if the many duplications (male and neuter often having similar forms) make learning easier (less articles to learn) or more difficult (more confusion)?
native: Deutsch / advanced: English, Nederlands / intermediate: Esperanto / forgotten: Français / fighting my way through: עברית מקראית / dreaming of: Čeština, עברית / admiring from a safe distance: فارسی

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Re: Deutsch - Mrhashimoto

Postby loqu » 2009-09-08, 17:51

linguaholic wrote:As far as I can see, your chart is correct. I just wonder why you put Accusative second. The "normal" order is nom-gen-dat-acc.


:) I spoke about this with Amikeco once in the chat, I was always taught nom-acc-dat-gen :lol: This last order is pretty common among (Spanish) DaF teachers, because it's the 'natural' progression on case learning (first nominative, and genitive the last if at all); it also helps to group similar forms of adjectives and determinatives on tables (nominative and accusative share a lot of similar forms, and genitive and dative share a couple of them).

The order written by Jayden is the order in which Latin is taught around here :)
De tant que et vull, et trac un ull.
Qui no vulga pols, que no vaja a l'era.

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Re: Deutsch - Mrhashimoto

Postby linguaholic » 2009-09-08, 18:03

Ooh ok didn't know that. It just struck me as odd and possibly causing confusion when you remember "accusative" as "2nd case" and then check a German grammar book.
native: Deutsch / advanced: English, Nederlands / intermediate: Esperanto / forgotten: Français / fighting my way through: עברית מקראית / dreaming of: Čeština, עברית / admiring from a safe distance: فارسی

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Re: Deutsch - Mrhashimoto

Postby csjc » 2009-09-08, 18:57

loqu wrote:
:) I spoke about this with Amikeco once in the chat, I was always taught nom-acc-dat-gen :lol: This last order is pretty common among (Spanish) DaF teachers, because it's the 'natural' progression on case learning (first nominative, and genitive the last if at all); it also helps to group similar forms of adjectives and determinatives on tables (nominative and accusative share a lot of similar forms, and genitive and dative share a couple of them).

The order written by Jayden is the order in which Latin is taught around here :)


*Peeks head into the German forum*

N/A/D/G is also the order in all Icelandic/Old Norse materials I've seen. Interesting it's not that way with German... I guess I'll have to get used to it eventually. :P
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Re: Deutsch - Mrhashimoto

Postby loqu » 2009-09-08, 20:15

linguaholic wrote:Ooh ok didn't know that. It just struck me as odd and possibly causing confusion when you remember "accusative" as "2nd case" and then check a German grammar book.


Oh you're right, I didn't remember cases are named with numbers as well around there. That always caused a lot of confusion to me. :lol:
De tant que et vull, et trac un ull.
Qui no vulga pols, que no vaja a l'era.

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Re: Deutsch - Mrhashimoto

Postby hashi » 2009-09-08, 23:08

You guys are weird. haha. My German book teaches them in the order of Nom, Acc, Dat, Gen... I didn't think order was relevant T__T

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Re: Deutsch - Mrhashimoto

Postby Caius » 2009-09-09, 0:42

mrhashimoto wrote:You guys are weird. haha. My German book teaches them in the order of Nom, Acc, Dat, Gen... I didn't think order was relevant T__T


It's not, really. It makes the most sense for an English speaker to learn them in the order of n/a/d/g because of their purposes:

Nominativ: Wer oder Was (subject)
Akkusativ: Wen oder Was (direct object)
Dativ: Wem oder Was (indirect object)
Genitiv: Wessen (possessive)

As you can see, the order in which the cases are taught to English speakers is also (with the exception of the possessive, but I'll get to that) the order basic English syntax follows. i.e.: I gave the book to the librarian.

It also makes sense to learn den Genitiv last because it's rarely used in spoken German, and der 3. Fall can be used to express any concept one would normally use with dem 2. Fall.

Given these, it makes sense to think of them that way. I don't think it's necessary to learn the German case order, unless of course you'd like to study German at a German university.
Do not hesitate to ask me about English or German, and please correct any mistakes.
Bei Fragen über Englisch bzw. Deutsch stehe ich gerne zur Verfügung. Bitte Fehler korregieren.

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Re: Deutsch - Mrhashimoto

Postby Nukalurk » 2009-09-10, 6:02

Most German and most Russian grammar books use the following order: nom-gen-dat-acc-instr-loc/prep-voc (the number of cases depends on the language treated, of course).

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Re: Deutsch - Mrhashimoto

Postby ILuvEire » 2009-09-11, 0:10

mrhashimoto wrote:I have decided I'm going to make an effort to try and reach some level of understanding in German by the end of the year. My first step is to get myself comfortable with the basic grammar rules. I'm particularly interested at the moment in finding some good resources you can recommend for things like gender agreement, adjective/noun declension, verb conjugation and maybe something on basic word order also.

Tack :)

Word Order in German
Adjective declension
German Verb Conjugation
Beolingus dictionary (I know you didn't ask for a dictionary, but this dictionary is awesome :D )

What exactly do you mean by gender agreement?

EDIT: Oh yeah, I totally forgot about Canoo. It's absolutely wunderbar. :)
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Re: Deutsch - Mrhashimoto

Postby hashi » 2014-08-20, 6:00

Hey everyone!

I've lately renewed my interest in German after putting it on hiatus since 2009. I guess back then I wanted more to focus on my Swedish :P In any case, I'm restarting my German study and wondered a few things.

From experience, music is one of the best ways for me to become motivated to learn a language, and to pick up nuances, rather than sitting behind a book all the time. However, I am not familiar with many (if any) German speaking singers/groups, and so I was hoping that some of you might have a suggestion for me.

I tend to like more catchier stuff like pop/electronic/folk etc, but can be interested in various others depending on the artist. In particular though, I'm looking for someone who sings clearly and doesn't sing about a lot of complex issues (for a learner to be able to understand in any case). So rap and hip-hop is generally out of the question. I personally would prefer a female singer as well - but mostly as I find them a lot easier to understand (or maybe it's just with Swedish), but again, anything will be considered :)

So if anyone has some suggestions, please let me know :) Those of you who've known me a while might have an idea, or those of you who've seen the stuff I post on Facebook.

Secondly, if there's anyone who's maybe interested in chatting a bit and helping me get my head around the basics of German grammar (I anticipate that learning which articles for which cases/gender will be the hardest for me), that would be cool too (I'll post here anyway with questions). Especially if someone is learning some Japanese or Swedish that I could help with potentially (not fluent, but have a decent grasp of :)).

Danke :)

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Re: Deutsch - hashi

Postby Yasna » 2014-08-20, 6:16

Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

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Re: Deutsch - hashi

Postby hashi » 2014-09-05, 6:38

Thanks :)

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Re: Deutsch - hashi

Postby hashi » 2014-09-10, 9:01

Ich will in Deutsch versuchen sprechen... Können Sie mir sagen ob dieser Satz richtig ist?
(Wenn Sie antworten, können Sie es zu Englisch auch übersetzen?)

Das Buch ist unter dem Stuhl. Ich will das Buch haben in meiner Hand, aber es unter dem Stuhl ist.

This will be riddled with errors, but I figure best way to practice is to jump right in and well, practice. I appreciate any corrections :)

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Re: Deutsch - hashi

Postby Car » 2014-09-10, 9:34

hashi wrote:Ich will versuchen, auf Deutsch zu sprechen... Können Sie mir sagen, ob dieser Satz richtig ist?
(Wenn Sie antworten, können Sie es auch ins Englische übersetzen?)

Das Buch ist unter dem Stuhl. Ich will das Buch in meiner Hand halten, aber es ist unter dem Stuhl ist.

This will be riddled with errors, but I figure best way to practice is to jump right in and well, practice. I appreciate any corrections :)


Du solltest dir die Regeln zur Satzstellung genauer angucken.

You should look at the rules for the word order more closely.

Ich habe es jetzt nicht korrigiert, aber normalerweise duzt man sich im Internet.

I didn't correct it now, but usually, you address each other informally (du) on the internet.
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Deutsch - hashi

Postby hashi » 2014-09-10, 9:45

Car wrote:Du solltest dir die Regeln zur Satzstellung genauer angucken.

You should look at the rules for the word order more closely.
I've looked at the basics, but there's a lot to take in and can't overload myself :) I'm learning :)

I didn't correct it now, but usually, you address each other informally (du) on the internet.
Good to know :)

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Re: Deutsch - hashi

Postby linguoboy » 2014-09-10, 16:24

Lohnes and Strothmann have a very elegant model of German sentence structure which covers the vast majority of cases. (Where it tends to break down is in very colloquial registers.) It divides the verbal phrase into two "prongs" which between them slice the rest of the clause into three "fields" for a total of five divisions altogether:

FRONT FIELD - predicate (first prong) - MIDDLE FIELD - predicate (second prong) - END FIELD

The first prong of the predicate contains the finite verb. The second prong is for non-finite forms (infinitives, participles, verbal particles, etc.). The second prong and the middle field can contain multiple elements whereas the rest can only accommodate one each[*]. There is a strict order to elements in the second prong. In the middle field, they are arranged in decreasing order of topicality (i.e. known information before unknown) and can be shuffled about for purposes of emphasis.

By default, the front field contains the subject. Often, however, this is replaced by a topicalised element (frequently an adverbial) in which case the subject must appear at the head of the middle field immediately after the first prong. For instance:

Ich gehe jetzt. > Jetzt gehe ich. "I'm going now/Now I'm going".
Sie hat ihn gestern gesehen. > Gestern hat sie ihn gesehen. "She saw him yesterday/Yesterday she saw him."

Theoretically, any sentence element can be topicalised (even the finite verb, via a periphrastic construction with tun), but practically speaking it's common with some constituents and exceedingly rare with others.


[*] Again, exception informal colloquial registers.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons


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