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Deutsch - hashi - Page 3 - UniLang

Deutsch - hashi

modus.irrealis
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Re: Deutsch - hashi

Postby modus.irrealis » 2014-09-10, 17:56

linguoboy wrote:By default, the front field contains the subject. Often, however, this is replaced by a topicalised element (frequently an adverbial) in which case the subject must appear at the head of the middle field immediately after the first prong. For instance:

Ich gehe jetzt. > Jetzt gehe ich. "I'm going now/Now I'm going".
Sie hat ihn gestern gesehen. > Gestern hat sie ihn gesehen. "She saw him yesterday/Yesterday she saw him."

Except that pronouns can precede noun subjects, right? It's my impression that it's more common to say "Gestern hat ihn meine Schwester gesehen" than "Gestern hat meine Schwester ihn gesehen". I imagine this is related to the decreasing order of topicality that you mention.

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linguoboy
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Re: Deutsch - hashi

Postby linguoboy » 2014-09-10, 19:29

modus.irrealis wrote:Except that pronouns can precede noun subjects, right? It's my impression that it's more common to say "Gestern hat ihn meine Schwester gesehen" than "Gestern hat meine Schwester ihn gesehen". I imagine this is related to the decreasing order of topicality that you mention.

I don't know that I would call the first ordering "more common". We'll see if the native speakers can speak to that. I would class this together with the other colloquial exceptions that the model ignores for paedagogical purposes. Either way, it is the only exception I know of, yes.
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Re: Deutsch - hashi

Postby kevin » 2014-09-10, 19:51

I would say it's the most neutral order anyway. Gestern hat meine Schwester ihn gesehen puts a slight stress on "meine Schwester", I think.

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Re: Deutsch - hashi

Postby hashi » 2014-09-10, 21:18

linguoboy wrote:FRONT FIELD - predicate (first prong) - MIDDLE FIELD - predicate (second prong) - END FIELD

The first prong of the predicate contains the finite verb. The second prong is for non-finite forms (infinitives, participles, verbal particles, etc.). The second prong and the middle field can contain multiple elements whereas the rest can only accommodate one each[*]. There is a strict order to elements in the second prong. In the middle field, they are arranged in decreasing order of topicality (i.e. known information before unknown) and can be shuffled about for purposes of emphasis.
This sounds like an interesting and useful model. What I don't understand is how to decide what information goes into what field or prong. Could you show me how this breaks up using one of the sentences I used before?

By default, the front field contains the subject. Often, however, this is replaced by a topicalised element (frequently an adverbial) in which case the subject must appear at the head of the middle field immediately after the first prong. For instance:

Ich gehe jetzt. > Jetzt gehe ich. "I'm going now/Now I'm going".
Sie hat ihn gestern gesehen. > Gestern hat sie ihn gesehen. "She saw him yesterday/Yesterday she saw him."
This part I'm aware of as Swedish does a similar/the same thing: Jag måste gå nu > Nu måste jag gå

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Re: Deutsch - hashi

Postby linguoboy » 2014-09-10, 21:59

hashi wrote:This sounds like an interesting and useful model. What I don't understand is how to decide what information goes into what field or prong. Could you show me how this breaks up using one of the sentences I used before?

Using Car's corrected versions:

Ich will versuchen, auf Deutsch zu sprechen.
FF 1st 2nd EF

The middle field is empty in this example. All others have one element each.

Können Sie mir sagen
1st MF 2nd

The model takes declarative sentences as its default. Imperative and interrogative sentences differ by having no front field; if a subject occurs, it appears at the beginning of the middle field.

ob dieser Satz richtig ist? Wenn Sie antworten

Okay, sentences with subordinate word order complicate the model somewhat. If you don't mind, let's hold off on them until you've got the basic order down.

können Sie es auch ins Englische übersetzen?

Here we have three elements in the middle field, starting with the object pronoun. As mentioned above, these come first because their information value is low. Next is a sentence adverb, which comes before the other adjunct for reasons of scope. (That is, ins Englische auch übersetzen nonsensically suggests you were going to do something else to them as well.)

Das Buch ist unter dem Stuhl.

I trust I don't need to gloss this one.

Ich will das Buch in meiner Hand halten

FF 1st MF 2nd.

Buch is topicalised (as indicated by the definite article), so of the two elements in the middle field, it comes first.

aber es ist unter dem Stuhl.

Coordinating conjunctions (aber, und, and a couple others) essentially stand outside of the model since it's a clause model and their function is purely to link clauses without subordinating one to the other.
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Re: Deutsch - hashi

Postby hashi » 2014-09-10, 23:29

Hmmmm thanks a lot. That helps demistify it quite a bit. I'll come up with some more practice sentences a little later (at work at the moment) and will give using this model a try :)

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Re: Deutsch - hashi

Postby Car » 2014-09-11, 8:45

kevin wrote:I would say it's the most neutral order anyway. Gestern hat meine Schwester ihn gesehen puts a slight stress on "meine Schwester", I think.

I agree.
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Deutsch - hashi

Postby hashi » 2014-10-10, 10:22

Hallo! Ich habe eine Frage... ich habe diese Tabelle auf Facebook gefunden, und ich denke, dass es nützlich scheit, aber ich kan nicht Portugiesisch zu gut lesen. Weißt du, wo ich kan eine ähnliche Tabelle auf Englisch finden? Oder kannst jemand in Englisch übersetzen? Danke :D

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Re: Deutsch - hashi

Postby kevin » 2014-10-10, 10:38

Eigentlich brauchst du dafür gar keine Tabelle, weil es bei allen Präpositionen gleich ist.

Akkusativ steht immer, wenn die Präposition eine Richtung angibt, z.B. in das Haus = into the house. Dativ steht, wenn die Präposition einen Ort angibt, z.B. im Haus = in(side) the house. Das gilt so für alle örtlichen Präpositionen.

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Re: Deutsch - hashi

Postby hashi » 2014-10-10, 10:56

kevin wrote:Eigentlich brauchst du dafür gar keine Tabelle, weil es bei allen Präpositionen gleich ist.

Akkusativ steht immer, wenn die Präposition eine Richtung angibt, z.B. in das Haus = into the house. Dativ steht, wenn die Präposition einen Ort angibt, z.B. im Haus = in(side) the house. Das gilt so für alle örtlichen Präpositionen.
Ah okay. Es ist schwieriger, wenn die Präposition neben einem Wort ist, wie nicht eine Sache ist.
That's supposed to say: It is harder when the preposition is next to a word that is not a "thing".

z.B, was ist der Unterschied zwischen die Satzen unten?
ich übersetze ins Englisch
ich übersetze im Englisch

Ich weiß nicht, welches Wort ich verwenden soll.

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Re: Deutsch - hashi

Postby kevin » 2014-10-10, 13:40

hashi wrote:Ah okay. Es ist schwieriger, wenn die Präposition neben einem Wort ist, das keine Sache ist.

z.B, was ist der Unterschied zwischen den folgenden Sätzen?
ich übersetze ins Englische
ich übersetze im Englischen

Ich weiß nicht, welches Wort ich verwenden soll.

Auch das ist eine Richtung. Du übersetzt z.B. vom Deutschen ins Englische. Auf englisch würdest du hier ja auch into gebrauchen und nicht in.

Innerhalb einer Sprache zu übersetzen ergibt keinen Sinn, deswegen ist der zweite Satz falsch.

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Re: Deutsch - hashi

Postby linguoboy » 2014-10-10, 15:47

hashi wrote:Es ist schwieriger, wenn die Präposition neben einem Wort ist, wie nicht eine Sache ist.

Dann muss man sich fragen, was die unterliegende Metapher sei. Mit übersetzen stellt man sich die einzelnen Sprachen als getrennte Bereiche vor, in welche man eine Phrase, einen Text usw. übertragen kann.
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Re: Deutsch - hashi

Postby hashi » 2014-10-11, 6:48

Hmmm ok :) Ich denke, dass ich es verstehe :) Danke für die Hilfe :)


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