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French - IpseDixit - UniLang

French - IpseDixit

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French - IpseDixit

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-11-09, 22:21

Hello.

Here's my first question:

In Italian it's possible to make VS (verb-subject) constructions.

For example: qui abita Lucia - here lives Lucia. I was wondering whether it's possible to do the same in French, for example saying ici habite Lucia or something similar.

Merci à l'avance.

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Re: French - IpseDixit

Postby JackFrost » 2013-11-10, 1:05

A normal thing in French too.

So, you can say "ici habite Anne", but it sounds rather old-fashioned. I would use it in literary contexts like "ici naquit Montréal" ("here Montreal was born"). Same for "peut-être", "au moins", etc. ("inversion or que" category if you already has clicked the link) since it's more common to add "que" instead of the inversion in the daily language including the media and so on.
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Re: French - IpseDixit

Postby melski » 2013-11-10, 1:09

 (it) Si , è possibile fare questo tipo di costruzione, però è meno usata che in italiano.
Secondo me, questa forma si trova soprattutto al plurale : "ici habitent les derniers témoins de la seconde guerre mondiale"
(non posso pensare a un altro esempio che quello ; "ici habite Lucia" mi sembra tropo comune, non abbastanza speciale, per giustificare tale costruzione). Come dice JackFrost, è una forma abbastanza letteraria.

 (en) Yes, it's possible to have such constructions in French, altough less used than in Italian.
I think it's mostly used with the plural form : 'ici habitent les derniers témoins de la seconde guerre mondiale" (here live the last testimonies of WWII).
(I can't think of another example ; "ici habite Lucia" sounds too ordinary, not special enough to justify such a construction). As JackFrost said, it's rather literary.
Last edited by melski on 2013-11-10, 10:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: French - IpseDixit

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-11-10, 1:38

Thank you both!

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Re: French - IpseDixit

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-18, 13:46

Can you correct this translation of mine of a Aesop's fable?


The Lamp La Lampe


A lamp, soaked with too much oil and flaring brightly, boasted
Une lampe, trempée de trop huile et flamboyant avec éclat, elle se vantait
that it gave more light than the sun. Then a sudden puff of wind
de donner plus de lumière que le soleil. Ensuite un soudain bouffée de vent
arose, and the Lamp was immediately extinguished. Its owner lit
surgit, et la lampe fut tout de suite éteinte. Son propriétaire l'allumée
it again, and said: "Boast no more, but henceforth be content to
de nouveau, et il dit: "Ne te vanter plus, mais dorénavant sois satisfaite de
give thy light in silence. Know that not even the stars need to
donner ta lumière en silence. Sache que pas même les étoiles ont besoin
be relit"
d'être re-allumées ( :?: ).

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Re: French - IpseDixit

Postby JackFrost » 2014-05-18, 17:47

The Lamp
La Lampe

A lamp, soaked with too much oil and flaring brightly, boasted
Une lampe, trempée de trop huile et flamboyant avec éclat, elle se vantait

Une lampe, trempée d'huile excessive et flamboyamment éclatante, elle se vantait

It's a bit clunky to say "trempée de trop d'huile" tbh.

that it gave more light than the sun. Then a sudden puff of wind
de donner plus de lumière que le soleil. Ensuite un soudain bouffée de vent

de donner plus de lumière que le soleil. Ensuite, une bouffée de vent soudaine

Or maybe d'éclairer plus fort que le soleil? ^^

arose, and the Lamp was immediately extinguished. Its owner lit
surgit, et la lampe fut tout de suite éteinte. Son propriétaire l'allumée

surgit et la lampe fut tout de suite éteinte. Son propriétaire l'alluma

it again, and said: "Boast no more, but henceforth be content to
de nouveau, evit il dit: "Ne te vanter plus, mais dorénavant sois satisfaite de

de nouveau, et il dit : «Ne te vante plus, mais sois dorénavant satisfaite

Note: when using negation with infinitive, all goes before the infinitive.

give thy light in silence. Know that not even the stars need to
donner ta lumière en silence. Sache que pas même les étoiles ont besoin

de donner ta lumière en silence. Sache que les étoiles n'ont même pas besoin

Again, d'éclairer en silence works too. And it's more natural to keep the prepositions with the verbs, not separated (well, at least to me... :s).

be relit"
d'être re-allumées ( :?: ).

d'être rallumées»

The re- prefix elides too.
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Re: French - IpseDixit

Postby nedrig » 2014-05-18, 18:16

JackFrost wrote:
The Lamp
La Lampe

A lamp, soaked with too much oil and flaring brightly, boasted
Une lampe, trempée de trop huile et flamboyant avec éclat, elle se vantait

Une lampe, trempée excessivement d'huile excessive et flamboyamment éclatante, elle se vantait

It's a bit clunky to say "trempée de trop d'huile" tbh.

Yes, "excessivement" is better, or "trop trempée d'huile".
(The french traduction is "enivrer" (make drunk or make pround/give pride), but "trempée d'huile" sounds good to me).
fr (fr)
es (es) en (en) la (la)
ro (ro)

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Re: French - IpseDixit

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-18, 18:32

I don't understand why flamboyamment...

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Re: French - IpseDixit

Postby melski » 2014-05-18, 18:40

If I may, here are my corrections as well (you did a very good job Jackfrost, but some errors still remain, even most of them concern style and not grammar).

The Lamp La Lampe

A lamp, soaked with too much oil and flaring brightly, boasted
Une lampe, trempée de trop huile et flamboyant avec éclat, elle se vantait
Une lampe, trempée excessivement d'huile et flamboyant avec éclat, se vantait
>> you should'nt use the personal pronoun here because the subject is already there (la lampe)

that it gave more light than the sun. Then a sudden puff of wind
de donner plus de lumière que le soleil. Ensuite un soudain bouffée de vent
de donner plus de lumière que le soleil. Soudain, un coup de vent
>> "soudain, un coup de vent" is more a correction of style than grammar, event though I've never heard "une bouffée de vent".

arose, and the Lamp was immediately extinguished. Its owner lit
surgit, et la lampe fut tout de suite éteinte. Son propriétaire l'allumée
surgit, et la lampe s'éteint tout de suite/subitement. Son propriétaire l'alluma
>> the passive form doesn't sound really good here.

it again, and said: "Boast no more, but henceforth be content to
de nouveau, et il dit: "Ne te vanter plus, mais dorénavant sois satisfaite de
de nouveau, et dit: "Ne te vante plus, mais dorénavant contente-toi de
>> "contente-toi" sounds better

give thy light in silence. Know that not even the stars need to
donner ta lumière en silence. Sache que pas même les étoiles ont besoin
donner ta lumière en silence/éclairer en silence. Sache que même les étoiles n'ont pas besoin

be relit"
d'être re-allumées ( :?: ).
d'être rallumées".
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Re: French - IpseDixit

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-18, 18:45

Thanks melski!

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Re: French - IpseDixit

Postby JackFrost » 2014-05-18, 18:52

IpseDixit wrote:I don't understand why flamboyamment...

I guess I was just trying to fix the style, but if the two French think it's fine regardless, ok.
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Re: French - IpseDixit

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-18, 19:05

JackFrost wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:I don't understand why flamboyamment...

I guess I was just trying to fix the style, but if the two French think it's fine regardless, ok.


But that's a noun, isn't it?

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Re: French - IpseDixit

Postby Dormouse559 » 2014-05-18, 20:16

It's an adverb. The "-ment" noun form would be "flamboiement".
N'hésite pas à corriger mes erreurs.

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Re: French - IpseDixit

Postby JackFrost » 2014-05-18, 22:06

IpseDixit wrote:But that's a noun, isn't it?

Oh, when it ends with -ant or -ent and if you add -ment, it changes to -amment or -emment.
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Re: French - IpseDixit

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-19, 9:47

A Zen story:

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era, received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen. Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring. The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!". "Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

Nan-in, un maître de l'époque Meiji, reçut un professeur d'université qui était venu pour se renseigner sur le Zen. Nan-in servit du thé. Il remplit la tasse de son visiteur, et ensuite il continua de le verser du thé. Le professeur regarda jusqu'à il ne put plus se taire. "Cela* est plein à craquer. Rien plus rentrarà**". "Comment cette tasse," Nan-in dit, "tu es plein de opinions et spéculations. Comment peux-je te montrer le Zen si avant tout tu ne vides pas ta tasse?".

*Cela, ceci, ce, ça or elle? It's so difficult :bittercry:
** I'm not sure about this sentence.

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Re: French - IpseDixit

Postby melski » 2014-05-19, 15:12

Voilà mes corrections, mais tu as fait une bonne traduction

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era, received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen. Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring. The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!". "Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

Corrections melski wrote:Nan-in, un maître japonais de l'époque Meiji, reçut un professeur d'université qui était venu pour se renseigner sur le Zen. Nan-in servit du thé. Il remplit entièrement la tasse de son visiteur, et ensuite il continua ensuite de le lui verser du thé. Le professeur regarda jusqu'à il ne put plus se taire jusqu'au moment où il ne put plus se taire. "Cela La tasse est pleine à craquer. Rien plus rentrarà Plus rien ne rentrera dedans!". "Comment cette tasse," dit Nan-in dit: "tu es plein de tes propres opinions et spéculations. Comment peux-je puis-je te montrer le Zen si avant tout tu ne vides pas ta tasse?"

- Quelques oublis: japanese (japonais), our own opinions (tes propres opinions) et non pas "des opinions" (some opinions in general)
- Rentrarà* n'existe pas: la forme correcte est rentrera.
- "It's full" ne peut pas être traduit littérallement. Personnellement, j'utiliserais "la tasse est pleine".
- "peux-je"* n'existe pas, c'est une exception: je peux mais la forme inversée est puis-je
- "tu es plein de tes propres opinions" est tout à fait correct, mais tu peux utiliser l'adjectif "imbu" qui est plus recherché. (tu es imbu de tes propres opinions)

NB. spero che non ti disturba che ti ho risposto in francese. Se hai qualche problema di comprensione, non esiti a dirmelo.
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Re: French - IpseDixit

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-19, 15:49

Thanks, and no problem if you answered in French ;)

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Re: French - IpseDixit

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-24, 11:05

Ok, here's another translation that I submitted in the translation forum. Can you correct it?

The world's stable now. People are happy; they get what they want, and they never want what they can't get. They're well off; they're safe; they're never ill; they're not afraid of death; they're blissfully ignorant of passion and old age; they're plagued with no mothers or fathers; they've got no wives, or children, or lovers to feel strongly about; they're so conditioned that they practically can't help behaving as they ought to behave. And if anything should go wrong, there's soma.
(Mustapha Mond, the World Controller of Western Europe - Brave New World, Aldous Huxley)


Le monde est stable maintenant. Les personnes sont heureuses; elles obtiennent ce qu'elles veulent et elles ne voulent jamais ce qu'elles ne peuvent obtenir. Elles sont aisées; elles sont en sésurité; elles ne tombent jamais malades; elles n'ont pas peur de la mort; elles sont merveilleusement ignorantes sur la passion et les temps passés; elle's n'ont pas la plaie d'une mère et d'un père; elles n'ont pas une femme, ou enfants ou amants pour lesquelles avoir sentiments forts; elles sont tellement conditionnées qu'en gros elles ne peuvent ne se comporter comment elles devraient. Et si quelque chose doivent se tromper, il y a la soma.
(Mustapha Mond, Contrôleur Mondial de l'Europe Occidental - Le Meilleur des Mondes, Aldous Huxley)

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Re: French - IpseDixit

Postby JackFrost » 2014-05-24, 17:38

Ok, here's my best shot.
IpseDixit wrote:Le monde est stable maintenant. Les personnes sont heureuses; elles obtiennent ce qu'elles veulent et elles ne veulent jamais ce qu'elles ne peuvent obtenir. Elles sont aisées; elles sont en sécurité; elles ne tombent jamais malades; elles n'ont pas peur de la mort; elles sont merveilleusement ignorantes sur de la passion et les temps passés des vieux jours; elle's n'ont pas la plaie d'une mère et d'un père de fardeau d'avoir des mères et des pères; elles n'ont pas de femme, ou d'enfants ou d'amants pour lesquelles avoir qui elles ont des sentiments forts; elles sont tellement conditionnées qu'en gros elles ne peuvent se comporter comment elles devraient. Et si quelque chose doit se tromper aller mal, il y a la soma.
(Mustapha Mond, contrôleur mondial de l'Europe occidentale - Le Meilleur des mondes, Aldous Huxley)

1) I don't know if "les temps passés" can mean "old age" (to me, it means "the former days" or "the past"). I just know "vieux jours" or "âge avancé" (the former is an euphemism whereas the latter isn't so really). "La vieillesse" works too.
2) "Ne pas avoir la plaie d'une mère..." makes no sense to me in that context, so I may be misunderstanding something. :s
3) "Elles n'ont pas une femme" is not a question of grammar, but style. See, if there are "d'enfants" and "d'amants", might as well say "de femme" (or "de femmes" if you want) then to keep it orderly when it's possible.
4) French capitalization rules aren't the same as the ones in English. :P
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Re: French - IpseDixit

Postby Marah » 2014-05-24, 18:32

I don't know about you but I think I would have translated "people" by "les gens" rather than "les personnes". So, of course, you would have to change the adjectives: "heureuses" > "heureux", "elles" > "ils", etc...
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.


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