[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions::$regionsdata
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Trying to get property of non-object
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions::$regionsdata
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Trying to get property of non-object
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions::$regionsdata
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Trying to get property of non-object
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions::$regionsdata
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Trying to get property of non-object
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions::$regionsdata
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Trying to get property of non-object
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions::$regionsdata
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Trying to get property of non-object
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions::$regionsdata
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Trying to get property of non-object
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions::$regionsdata
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Trying to get property of non-object
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions::$regionsdata
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Trying to get property of non-object
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 214: Undefined offset: 1
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 5312: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3925)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 5312: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3925)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 5312: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3925)
Srpski - Ciarán12 - UniLang

Srpski - Ciarán12

Moderator: kibo

User avatar
Ciarán12
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2897
Joined: 2011-12-31, 15:23
Real Name: Ciarán
Gender: male
Location: Baile Átha Cliath (Dublin)
Country: IE Ireland (Éire / Ireland)

Srpski - Ciarán12

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-05-19, 14:50

Zdravo! (Not sure if that is in anyway an appropriate greeting here)

I am currently going through TY Serbian and I have a few questions about what I've come accross so far. I have only gotten through the first 4 chapters, it's possible these points are explained later but I get frustrated when I see something it's clarified in that lesson so I'll put my questions here.


The book uses both the Latin and Cyrillic alphabets, but I'll just use the Latin one here.


1) In the dialogue there are two people speakeing to each other, a man and a woman. The man adresses the woman in the vocative case as "gospođo Petrović" and the woman adresses the man as "gospodine Lukiću". As both surnames end in "ić" but have different vocative forms, is this because of the gender of the people bearing those names?

2) I have come across both "i" and "a" for "and", with "i" being used for "also" as well. I have only seen "a" at the begining of phrases like "a za vas?" - "and for you?", what exactly are the rules for when you use "a" and when "i"?

3) As adjectives have different forms depending on gender, are fem. forms used to talk about women and masc. forms about men? What about talking about yourself? For example, I have only seen "Ja sam dobro", never "Ja sam dobra" even if it is a woman talking. So is the neutre form used when talking about/describing yourself, or is it always used with people? Or is dobar/dobro/dobra an exception?

4) TY explains that you can omit the pronoun in the sentence "Ja sam dobro" but that this rearrnges the word order to "Dobro sam". Does this change the emphasis? Also, is there a way to include the pronoun while having "dobro" at the beginning?

5) Can someone explain the literal meaning of "Da vas upoznam" and "Drago mi je"?

6) Can someone explain to me how to use the word "se" as in the sentence "Kako se zoveš?" "Zovem se Ciarán."? I am told it means "oneself", it appears from the above sentences that it doesn't change depending on the person it refers to (c.f. Spanish "Como te llamas? Me llamo Ciarán.")

7) I am a bit confused by the order of subject and verb in some instances. We have "Kako ste?" and "Kako ste vi?" which shows "V - S" after "kako", but then "A kako se vi zovete?" which shows "S - V". IS that because of "se"?

8) What is the literal meaning of "Da li"? What is the difference between "Vi ste Englez?" and "Da li ste vi Englez?" The word order after "Da li" appears to be "V - S" as in "Da li ste vi Englez?", but I see another example sentence where it says "Da li vi govorite srpski?", are there rules for what order they go in after "da li" or is something else going on here?

9) "Govorim malo francuski" - I don't know the case system well enough yet to know if "francuski" is nom. or gen. or whatever. Is the formula for "a little bit of" - "malo + Nom."?

10) "Ne govorim, ali dosta razumem" - Is "dosta" an adverb and "malo" a noun? Why is it "dosta razumem" but "govorim malo" (the word order I mean)?

11) What case is the pronoun "vas" in? Dative?

12) What verb (and what verbform) is "bih"?

13) TY says that after the number "dva" the noun is put in the gen. sing. case. Does that men that the word "beers" in the phrase "I want two beers" is in the gen. sing. even though it is the object (normally acc.) and plural? Would this mean that "two beers" is always in the gen. sing. regardless of the case any other noun would be in in the same situation, i.e. "for two beers" being in the gen. sing. rather than the dat. plur., "with two beers" beingin the gen. sing. rather than the inst. plur. etc...?

14) "Dajte mi" means "Give me" according to TY, can someone explain the grammar?

15) "U redu" means "Okay, alright". What do these words mean individually?

16) From dialogues earlier on in the book I saw that you can form yes/no questions with intonation alon - "Vi ste Englex. > Vi ste Engliez?". Then the "da li" formula was brought in "Da li ste vi Englez?". Now they've brought in another with the verb "hoćete" - "Hoćete li pivo?". So, presumably "Da li hoćete vi pivo?" and just "Vi hoćete pivo?" would also work, right? TY also then says "you simply put "li" after the verb followed by the subject if one is used, as in Hoćete li i vi pivo?", and they mention nothing about why there is an "i" between "li" and "vi" :?
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

User avatar
Патрислав Андреевич
Posts: 524
Joined: 2013-04-17, 15:07
Real Name: Patryk
Gender: male
Country: PL Poland (Polska)

Re: Srpski - Ciarán12

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2014-05-19, 17:47

Pozdrav Ciaráne! Drago mi je što si počeo da učiš srpski! :)
Hello Ciarán! I’m glad that you started learning Serbian! :)

----

First of all, I’m sorry but I don’t know much about word order or emphasis rules. They’re very flexible, and my advice would be just a lot of practice: reading, listening, as well as writing and having your sentences checked. :)

1) Yes, it's gender difference. Surnames ending in -ić are -iću for male and -ić for female persons.

2) This is one of the mysteries of Slavic languages... :roll:

3) In this case ‘dobro’ is an adverb. „Ja sam dobro“ means “I am well”. Meanwhile „Ja sam dobar/dobra“ would mean “I am good”.

4) Yes, it does change emphasis but I will leave it to others to explain, since I don't know the exact rules.. And yes, there is a way to include the pronoun, which would look like this: „Dobro sam ja“, but this construction has limited uses. However it's not possible to say *„Dobro ja sam“.

5) „Da vas upoznam“ = lit. “To you-PL-ACC meet. (To meet you)
„Drago mi je“ = lit. “Nice me-DAT (it) is”. (It’s nice to me/I’m glad)

6) Yes, ‘se’ is a reflexive pronoun and it never changes its form when used as such.

7) Yes, it’s because of ‘se’. Again, I’m sorry I can’t say more.

8) I explain this together with 16.

9) ‘malo’ is an adverb. ‘francuski’ is an adjective in accusative case with an underlying noun being ‘jezik’ language (so it’s functioning as a noun here.)

10) Both are adverbs. About the word order.. All I can say is that it's because of the conjunction, ‘ali’ in this case.. AFAIK you need to change the word order after certain conjunctions.. :hmm:

11) No, it's Accusative. [N vi G vas D vam(a) A vas V vi L (o) vama I (sa) vama]

12) The verb is ‘biti’ to be in aorist (in this case ‘bih’ is in the 1st person). It’s mostly used to form conditionals, like: „došao bih” (for male) / „došla bih” (for female) I would come.

13) Yes, you are right, “beers” there don’t change forms. Your examples translated: „Hoću dva piva” (I want two beers), „Za dva piva” (for two beers), „Sa dva piva” (with two beers).

14) ‘Dajte’ is an 2nd person plural imperative form of ‘dati’ to give. The plural imperative is always formed by adding -te to the singular imperative. (So you see that singular imperative for ‘dati’ is ‘daj’.)
‘mi’ is an enclitic form of the 1st person singular pronoun in Dative case. Basically means just to me (cf. „Drago mi je“)
Remember that in Serbian 2nd person plural functions also as formal singular, like usted.

15) “In order” :D ‘red’ order, gives locative ‘redu’.

16) There are many ways to form questions in Serbo-Croatian. For example with ‘biti’:

Da li ste (vi) Englez?
Jeste li (vi) Englez?
Vi ste Englez?


And with ‘hteti’:

Da li (vi) hoćete pivo?
Hoćete li (vi) pivo?
(Vi) hoćete pivo?


Now explanation. ‘li’ is a question particle, used to ask questions. The two main ways to do that are either with „da li + verb“ (associated chiefly with Serbian) or „verb + li” (associated chiefly with Croatian). Also, the common way is to just use the normal indicative sentence with changed tone.

Both ‘ste’ and ‘vi’ are clitics there, so their position in the sentence is something more difficult to explain. So I won’t for now, but have my word for it. :silly:

In the example of „Hoćete li i vi pivo“, ‘i’ means ‘also’.

------

Uf, nadam se da sam bar malo pomogao. Ako imaš više pitanja, pitaj. Samo tako nastavi! ;)
Uff, I hope I helped at least a little bit. If you’ve got more questions, ask. Keep it up! ;)
„Miej serce i patrzaj w serce!” — Adam Mickiewicz

User avatar
Ciarán12
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2897
Joined: 2011-12-31, 15:23
Real Name: Ciarán
Gender: male
Location: Baile Átha Cliath (Dublin)
Country: IE Ireland (Éire / Ireland)

Re: Srpski - Ciarán12

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-05-20, 0:06

Zdravo, xivroxe! Hvala za pomoći! < I obviously messed that up, please fix this!

xivrox wrote:3) In this case ‘dobro’ is an adverb. „Ja sam dobro“ means “I am well”. Meanwhile „Ja sam dobar/dobra“ would mean “I am good”.


Okay. Is the neutre form of the adjective normaly the same as the adverbial form, or does it just happen to be for dobro?

xivrox wrote:4) Yes, it does change emphasis but I will leave it to others to explain, since I don't know the exact rules.. And yes, there is a way to include the pronoun, which would look like this: „Dobro sam ja“, but this construction has limited uses. However it's not possible to say *„Dobro ja sam“.


Great, thanks! Do you know if this is V2 like in German (i.e. the verb come in second position in the clause with the pronoun following it if something else is put before the verb)?

xivrox wrote:5) „Da vas upoznam“ = lit. “To you-PL-ACC meet. (To meet you)
„Drago mi je“ = lit. “Nice me-DAT (it) is”. (It’s nice to me/I’m glad)


What verbform is "upoznam"? 1st Pers. Sing. Present? And "drago" is neutre here?

xivrox wrote:9) ‘malo’ is an adverb. ‘francuski’ is an adjective in accusative case with an underlying noun being ‘jezik’ language (so it’s functioning as a noun here.)

10) Both are adverbs. About the word order.. All I can say is that it's because of the conjunction, ‘ali’ in this case.. AFAIK you need to change the word order after certain conjunctions.. :hmm:


Okay, thanks. This is seeming more and more like German by the minute!

xivrox wrote:11) No, it's Accusative. [N vi G vas D vam(a) A vas V vi L (o) vama I (sa) vama]


Okay, thanks for the paradigm :)

xivrox wrote:12) The verb is ‘biti’ to be in aorist (in this case ‘bih’ is in the 1st person). It’s mostly used to form conditionals, like: „došao bih” (for male) / „došla bih” (for female) I would come.


Interesting, because in the example sentence it was used to mean "(I) would like".
- "Izvolite?"
- "Jedno pivo, molim vas."
- "A za vas?"
- "I ja bih pivo."

Is he literally saying "And I was beer."? (although, I just looked into the aorist in Serbo-Croatian on wikipedia and I realise the English past tense is not a perfect translation of the Serbian aorist by any means...)

xivrox wrote:16) There are many ways to form questions in Serbo-Croatian. For example with ‘biti’:

Da li ste (vi) Englez?
Jeste li (vi) Englez?
Vi ste Englez?


And with ‘hteti’:

Da li (vi) hoćete pivo?
Hoćete li (vi) pivo?
(Vi) hoćete pivo?


Now explanation. ‘li’ is a question particle, used to ask questions. The two main ways to do that are either with „da li + verb“ (associated chiefly with Serbian) or „verb + li” (associated chiefly with Croatian). Also, the common way is to just use the normal indicative sentence with changed tone.

Both ‘ste’ and ‘vi’ are clitics there, so their position in the sentence is something more difficult to explain. So I won’t for now, but have my word for it. :silly:


Okay, so normal verbs behave like "hteti" with regard to word order after "da li" then, and "biti" is the exception? It's hard for me to come up with examples as I have such a painfully limited vocabulary, but would you say "Da li ti učiš srpski?" rather than "Da li učiš ti srpski?"
It seems that in your Verb + li examples that the word order is the same for both "hteti" and "biti", so no problem there.

xivrox wrote:In the example of „Hoćete li i vi pivo“, ‘i’ means ‘also’.


Again, I have to ask, is there a word order rule at work here or could the "i" go pretty much anywhere in that sentence?

------

xivrox wrote:Uf, nadam se da sam bar malo pomogao. Ako imaš više pitanja, pitaj. Samo tako nastavi! ;)
Uff, I hope I helped at least a little bit. If you’ve got more questions, ask. Keep it up! ;)


You've been very helpful, thank you!
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

User avatar
voron
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2961
Joined: 2007-07-15, 3:29
Gender: male
Country: TR Turkey (Türkiye)

Re: Srpski - Ciarán12

Postby voron » 2014-05-20, 2:44

Hvala za pomoći

Hvala na pomoći

3) In this case ‘dobro’ is an adverb. „Ja sam dobro“ means “I am well”. Meanwhile „Ja sam dobar/dobra“ would mean “I am good”.

Okay. Is the neutre form of the adjective normaly the same as the adverbial form, or does it just happen to be for dobro?

Yes, the neutre adjective form is normally the same as the adverbial form. There are exceptions though, such as "matematički" (mathematical/mathematically), where the adverbial form is the same as the masculine adjective form.

xivrox wrote:4) Yes, it does change emphasis but I will leave it to others to explain, since I don't know the exact rules.. And yes, there is a way to include the pronoun, which would look like this: „Dobro sam ja“, but this construction has limited uses. However it's not possible to say *„Dobro ja sam“.


Great, thanks! Do you know if this is V2 like in German (i.e. the verb come in second position in the clause with the pronoun following it if something else is put before the verb)?


No, it's not V2. It's because of the rules for placing clitics that xivrox was going to explain later on.
The short (=non emphatic) forms of the verb "to be" are enclitics and they have to be placed after the first stressed word (or more generally syntagma) in a sentence. They cannot start a sentence (*"Sam dobro" is wrong).

5) „Da vas upoznam“ = lit. “To you-PL-ACC meet. (To meet you)
„Drago mi je“ = lit. “Nice me-DAT (it) is”. (It’s nice to me/I’m glad)


What verbform is "upoznam"? 1st Pers. Sing. Present? And "drago" is neutre here?

Yes, it's 1st p. sing. present. Serbian often replaces the infinitive with ("da" + a verb in the present tense) construction. It's a common feature of the Balkan Sprachbund languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_spr ... infinitive

Yes, drago is neutre here.

xivrox wrote:12) The verb is ‘biti’ to be in aorist (in this case ‘bih’ is in the 1st person). It’s mostly used to form conditionals, like: „došao bih” (for male) / „došla bih” (for female) I would come.


Interesting, because in the example sentence it was used to mean "(I) would like".
- "Izvolite?"
- "Jedno pivo, molim vas."
- "A za vas?"
- "I ja bih pivo."

Is he literally saying "And I was beer."? (although, I just looked into the aorist in Serbo-Croatian on wikipedia and I realise the English past tense is not a perfect translation of the Serbian aorist by any means...)

As xivrox said, the aorist of the verb "to be" is used primarily as a part of the conditional tense.
Conditional = to be in the aorist + past active participle
In the dialogue above, the participle is implied: ja bih (popio) pivo - I would (drink) a beer, ja bih (uzeo) bio - I would (take) a beer.

xivrox wrote:16) There are many ways to form questions in Serbo-Croatian. For example with ‘biti’:

Da li ste (vi) Englez?
Jeste li (vi) Englez?
Vi ste Englez?


And with ‘hteti’:

Da li (vi) hoćete pivo?
Hoćete li (vi) pivo?
(Vi) hoćete pivo?


Now explanation. ‘li’ is a question particle, used to ask questions. The two main ways to do that are either with „da li + verb“ (associated chiefly with Serbian) or „verb + li” (associated chiefly with Croatian). Also, the common way is to just use the normal indicative sentence with changed tone.

Both ‘ste’ and ‘vi’ are clitics there, so their position in the sentence is something more difficult to explain. So I won’t for now, but have my word for it. :silly:


Okay, so normal verbs behave like "hteti" with regard to word order after "da li" then, and "biti" is the exception? It's hard for me to come up with examples as I have such a painfully limited vocabulary, but would you say "Da li ti učiš srpski?" rather than "Da li učiš ti srpski?"
It seems that in your Verb + li examples that the word order is the same for both "hteti" and "biti", so no problem there.

It's all about the clitics again. "Li" as an enclitic, as well as the short forms of the verb "to be" are, therefore they should follow the first stressed word in a sentence. There are rules regulating the clitics order, and in this order "li" takes the absolute precedence.

"Vi" is not a clitic so you can stick it anywhere.

xivrox wrote:In the example of „Hoćete li i vi pivo“, ‘i’ means ‘also’.


Again, I have to ask, is there a word order rule at work here or could the "i" go pretty much anywhere in that sentence?

"I" must go before the rheme (aka comment).
Hoćete li i vi pivo? - Is it also you who want beer?
Hoćete li vi i pivo? - Is it also beer that you want?

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 3056
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: بارسیلونا
Country: ES Spain (España)

Re: Srpski - Ciarán12

Postby Saim » 2014-05-20, 7:35

Xivrox and Voron have covered it pretty well so far. Keep in mind that the aorist is not very commonly used in the colloquial language, except the auxiliary use already mentioned.

Ciarán12 wrote:2) I have come across both "i" and "a" for "and", with "i" being used for "also" as well. I have only seen "a" at the begining of phrases like "a za vas?" - "and for you?", what exactly are the rules for when you use "a" and when "i"?


"A" is a contrastive/comparative "and", "i" is an additive one. "A za vas" has "a" because you're comparing with someone else. For example, here is a phrase I just found in Google:

Sindikati ministru rada: Mi da štedimo, a za vas luksuz?
Sindicates to the work minister: we have to save, and (while) you get luxury?

In this sentence, it's a because "you" (the minister) is being contrasted with the sindicates, who get something else. With i you tend to list things, let's look at ordering in a restaurant or café:

Za mene špagete i sok od jabuka, a za nju samo špagete
For me spaghetti and apple juice, and (whereas, while) for her just spaghetti.

xivrox wrote:Da li ste (vi) Englez?
Jeste li (vi) Englez?
Vi ste Englez?


And with ‘hteti’:

Da li (vi) hoćete pivo?
Hoćete li (vi) pivo?
(Vi) hoćete pivo?


In colloquial Serbian it's also possible to say jel' hoćete pivo, although that's considered "wrong" in the standard language because jel' is a contraction of je li which literally means "is it?". I'm not sure about the other Serbo-Croatian territories but in Serbia this is definitely common.
ماں بولی = قومی بولی

پنجابی بولو، پنجابی پڑھو، پنجابی لکھو

User avatar
Ciarán12
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2897
Joined: 2011-12-31, 15:23
Real Name: Ciarán
Gender: male
Location: Baile Átha Cliath (Dublin)
Country: IE Ireland (Éire / Ireland)

Re: Srpski - Ciarán12

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-05-28, 22:04

Thanks for all the explanations, I'm still trying to digest it all.

I have been going through noun inflection and it seems pretty straightforward, but I'm still confused about verbs. Could you guys help me with the following?

- how many irregular verbs are there?
- how many classes of regular verb are there? There are -a-, -e- and -i- stems, do all regular verbs follow one of these three paradigms? What about -ći verbs, are they irregular or a fourth catagory of regular verb? There seem to be some verbs that have one vowel in the infinitive and a different one in the conjugation (voleti - volim), are these considered irregular? Are there many of them?
- Wiktionary gives this for the conjugation of "govoriti" - http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/govoriti
Could someone explain what the difference between the two future tenses and the two conditionals is?
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 3056
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: بارسیلونا
Country: ES Spain (España)

Re: Srpski - Ciarán12

Postby Saim » 2014-05-29, 8:46

Ciarán12 wrote:Thanks for all the explanations, I'm still trying to digest it all.

I have been going through noun inflection and it seems pretty straightforward, but I'm still confused about verbs. Could you guys help me with the following?

- how many irregular verbs are there?
- how many classes of regular verb are there? There are -a-, -e- and -i- stems, do all regular verbs follow one of these three paradigms? What about -ći verbs, are they irregular or a fourth catagory of regular verb? There seem to be some verbs that have one vowel in the infinitive and a different one in the conjugation (voleti - volim), are these considered irregular? Are there many of them?


Conjugating regular verbs is a bit more complicated in Serbo-Croatian than in Romance languages, because you actually need to learn two forms - the infinitive and the first person singular present. For example, this online dictionary has this in its entry for "voleti":

vòljeti (koga, što, se) nesvrš. 〈prez. vȍlīm, pril. sad. vȍlēći, prid. trp. vȍljen, gl. im. vȍljēnje〉

Thus, from the infinitive we can deduce the regularly formed past participles (voleo, volela, voleli), the aorist (voleh, voleše) and the verbal noun (volenje). On the other hand, from the present volim we regularly form the other present-tense conjugations (voliš, voli, volimo, volite, vole). And yes, these verbs are common; we have trčati - trčim, kazati - kažem, bojati se - bojim se (but bojati - bojam!)*...

With the -ći verbs new consonants show up in the past participle - the ones indicating movement become -šao (ići - išao, doći - došao, poći - pošao) and in the present tense are usually palatalised (ići gives idem, but došao gives dođem and poći gives pođem). Then you have things like moći giving ja mogu, ti možeš, oni mogu, mogao je and peći giving pečem, peci!, pekao je, so I think the -ći ones are generally quite unpredictable even if the ones that indicate movement are similar.

*Bojati se (bojim se) means to be afraid, bojati (bojam) means to colour.

- Wiktionary gives this for the conjugation of "govoriti" - http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/govoriti
Could someone explain what the difference between the two future tenses and the two conditionals is?


Futur II is used for dependent clauses. It is often similar to the use of the subjunctive in Spanish and Catalan. In Serbo-Croatian and unlike in Catalan and Spanish it is often replaced by the present.

Rećiću ti kad budem došao.
T'ho dic quan vingui. T'ho dic quan vindré.* T'ho dic quan vinc.*
Te lo digo cuando venga. Te lo digo cuando vindré.* Te lo digo cuando vengo.*

The * represents common mistakes among learners.

Although unlike in Catalan and Spanish it can be used with "if" as well:

Ako budem imao vremena, rećiću ti.
Si tinc (not tingui) temps, t'ho dic.
Si tengo (not tenga) tiempo, te lo digo.

Kondicional II refers to impossible conditionals, things that have already not happened. The Croatian Wikipedia uses this example:

Sigurno bi bili pobijedili, samo da su mogli igrati pametnije.
They definitely would've won had they played smarter.
(They've lost)

Sigurno bi pobijedili, samo da mogu igrati pametnije.
They'd definitely win, if only they were to play smarter.
(They can still win)

However, I think in the colloquial language Kondicional II is often replaced by Kondicional I. I ran a couple of Kondicional II phrases by mother, basing them on the Wikipedia example, and she said they weren't very natural for her. When I Googled "bih bio" and "bi bili" they mostly turned out modifying adjectives and not verbs as auxiliaries. According to an article I found:

Ovaj rad bavit će se pitanjem kondicionala II. u suvremenom hrvatskom jeziku. Cilj je rada istražiti i dokazati još uvijek prisutnu uporabu navedenog glagolskog načina koji se, naročito u novijoj literaturi i medijima, često pogrješno zamjenjuje kondicionalom I.


This article will deal with the question of the second conditional in the contemporary Croatian language. The objective of this article is to research and demonstrate the still present use of the aforementioned verbal mood which, above all in new literature and media, is often incorrectly replaced by the first conditional.
ماں بولی = قومی بولی

پنجابی بولو، پنجابی پڑھو، پنجابی لکھو

User avatar
Ciarán12
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2897
Joined: 2011-12-31, 15:23
Real Name: Ciarán
Gender: male
Location: Baile Átha Cliath (Dublin)
Country: IE Ireland (Éire / Ireland)

Re: Srpski - Ciarán12

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-05-29, 22:54

Saim wrote:Conjugating regular verbs is a bit more complicated in Serbo-Croatian than in Romance languages, because you actually need to learn two forms - the infinitive and the first person singular present. For example, this online dictionary has this in its entry for "voleti":

vòljeti (koga, što, se) nesvrš. 〈prez. vȍlīm, pril. sad. vȍlēći, prid. trp. vȍljen, gl. im. vȍljēnje〉

Thus, from the infinitive we can deduce the regularly formed past participles (voleo, volela, voleli), the aorist (voleh, voleše) and the verbal noun (volenje). On the other hand, from the present volim we regularly form the other present-tense conjugations (voliš, voli, volimo, volite, vole). And yes, these verbs are common; we have trčati - trčim, kazati - kažem, bojati se - bojim se (but bojati - bojam!)*...


So, if we exclude -ći verbs and any irregular verbs, I can form all parts of a regular verb by knowing just the 1st person present and infinitive forms? Is the 1st person present just used to form the rest of the present tense and then the infinitive is used for the rest?

Saim wrote:With the -ći verbs new consonants show up in the past participle - the ones indicating movement become -šao (ići - išao, doći - došao, poći - pošao) and in the present tense are usually palatalised (ići gives idem, but došao gives dođem and poći gives pođem). Then you have things like moći giving ja mogu, ti možeš, oni mogu, mogao je and peći giving pečem, peci!, pekao je, so I think the -ći ones are generally quite unpredictable even if the ones that indicate movement are similar.


Okay, so -ći = irregular then basically.

Saim wrote:*Bojati se (bojim se) means to be afraid, bojati (bojam) means to colour..

Heh, now this is reminding me of Japanese :P

Saim wrote:Futur II is used for dependent clauses. It is often similar to the use of the subjunctive in Spanish and Catalan. In Serbo-Croatian and unlike in Catalan and Spanish it is often replaced by the present.

Rećiću ti kad budem došao.
T'ho dic quan vingui. T'ho dic quan vindré.* T'ho dic quan vinc.*
Te lo digo cuando venga. Te lo digo cuando vindré.* Te lo digo cuando vengo.*

The * represents common mistakes among learners.


So would either be correct (Future II or Present tense) in any situation (colloquially, I meean)?

Saim wrote:Although unlike in Catalan and Spanish it can be used with "if" as well:

Ako budem imao vremena, rećiću ti.
Si tinc (not tingui) temps, t'ho dic.
Si tengo (not tenga) tiempo, te lo digo.


Can be or is always?

Saim wrote:Kondicional II refers to impossible conditionals, things that have already not happened. The Croatian Wikipedia uses this example:

Sigurno bi bili pobijedili, samo da su mogli igrati pametnije.
They definitely would've won had they played smarter.
(They've lost)

Sigurno bi pobijedili, samo da mogu igrati pametnije.
They'd definitely win, if only they were to play smarter.
(They can still win)


That is so cool. Seriously, I love that, it makes so much sense! It's basically a Past Conditional then, right?

Saim wrote:However, I think in the colloquial language Kondicional II is often replaced by Kondicional I. I ran a couple of Kondicional II phrases by mother, basing them on the Wikipedia example, and she said they weren't very natural for her. When I Googled "bih bio" and "bi bili" they mostly turned out modifying adjectives and not verbs as auxiliaries. According to an article I found:

Ovaj rad bavit će se pitanjem kondicionala II. u suvremenom hrvatskom jeziku. Cilj je rada istražiti i dokazati još uvijek prisutnu uporabu navedenog glagolskog načina koji se, naročito u novijoj literaturi i medijima, često pogrješno zamjenjuje kondicionalom I.


This article will deal with the question of the second conditional in the contemporary Croatian language. The objective of this article is to research and demonstrate the still present use of the aforementioned verbal mood which, above all in new literature and media, is often incorrectly replaced by the first conditional.


I see, sounds like its being phased out like the English subjunctive.

I have acquired Routledge's "Serbian: An Essential Grammar" (via UZ) and I'm going through the section on verbs. It paints a rather complex picture of the situation and I'm trying to figure out if there is a simpler way for me to conceptualise the system. For example, it gives a list of all possible verb endings for the infinitive for each of the three major catagories of verb, but many of the endings appear in two or even all three of the conjugations, so I would have to learn the present tense form off anyway (thus making memorising which infinitive endings it is possible to have in a given conjugation type irrelevant information) :? .
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 3056
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: بارسیلونا
Country: ES Spain (España)

Re: Srpski - Ciarán12

Postby Saim » 2014-05-31, 13:39

Ciarán12 wrote:So, if we exclude -ći verbs and any irregular verbs, I can form all parts of a regular verb by knowing just the 1st person present and infinitive forms? Is the 1st person present just used to form the rest of the present tense and then the infinitive is used for the rest?


Yes, as far as regular verbs go if you know the infinitive and the present tense stem you'll know how to conjugate the rest. From the present tense you can also know what the imperative is (-im and -em verbs have -i in the imperative and -am verbs have -aj). The present verbal adverb (-ći, often similar in function to the English present participle) -

govoriti (govorim) --> govoreći
ići (idem) --> ideći
trčati (trčim) --> trčeći
slušati (slušam) --> slušajući

The rest is formed based on the infinitive.

Heh, now this is reminding me of Japanese :P


In what sense, out of curiosity?

So would either be correct (Future II or Present tense) in any situation (colloquially, I meean)?

I think so but maybe a native speaker would be able to

Can be or is always?


After ako you can only have present or futur II, not futur I.

That is so cool. Seriously, I love that, it makes so much sense! It's basically a Past Conditional then, right?


Yes, in fact in Serbo-Croatian it has two names - kondicional II (conditional II) and kondicional prošli (past conditional).

(thus making memorising which infinitive endings it is possible to have in a given conjugation type irrelevant information) :?


Yeah I think the easiest way is to just learn both the infinitive and the present tense stem. So see the "basic form" of verbs as piti (pijem), jesti (jedem), pasti (padnem) and so on. I personally have no idea which conjugations can appear with which verbal suffix.

The only thing that may help in this regard is to remember when it's -ati (-em) there's usually (or always?) palatalisation. See kazati (kažem), lagati (lažem), pomagati (pomažem), mukati (mučem), disati (dišem) and pisati (pišem); of course in the case of smejati (smejem) it's not palatalised because it's already palatal.
ماں بولی = قومی بولی

پنجابی بولو، پنجابی پڑھو، پنجابی لکھو

User avatar
Ciarán12
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2897
Joined: 2011-12-31, 15:23
Real Name: Ciarán
Gender: male
Location: Baile Átha Cliath (Dublin)
Country: IE Ireland (Éire / Ireland)

Re: Srpski - Ciarán12

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-06-01, 10:59

Saim wrote:Yes, as far as regular verbs go if you know the infinitive and the present tense stem you'll know how to conjugate the rest. From the present tense you can also know what the imperative is (-im and -em verbs have -i in the imperative and -am verbs have -aj). The present verbal adverb (-ći, often similar in function to the English present participle) -

govoriti (govorim) --> govoreći
ići (idem) --> ideći
trčati (trčim) --> trčeći
slušati (slušam) --> slušajući

The rest is formed based on the infinitive.


I checked my grammar book and it says the present verbal adverb is formed from the 3rd person plural present from + ći, in which case those look okay except for ideći - is there any particular reason why it isn't idući? Is it just irregular?

Saim wrote:
Heh, now this is reminding me of Japanese :P


In what sense, out of curiosity?


 (sr) Bojati se (bojim se) means to be afraid, bojati (bojam) means to colour.
 (ja) iru (irimasu) means to need, iru (imasu) means to be.

In Japanese, there are two conjugational classes of verb and verbs ending in -ru in the "dictionary form" (the infinitive, for all intents and purposes) can be either, the only way to tell is to know the -masu form (the Polite Non-Past form, which can often be used to translate the present tense of IE languages). There are cases (as given above) where the same dictionary form can mean two different things depending on how it is conjugated, which your Serbian example reminded me of.

Saim wrote:
So would either be correct (Future II or Present tense) in any situation (colloquially, I meean)?

I think so but maybe a native speaker would be able to


You're native enough for the moment anyway :wink:

Saim wrote:
Can be or is always?


After ako you can only have present or futur II, not futur I.


Okay.

Saim wrote:
That is so cool. Seriously, I love that, it makes so much sense! It's basically a Past Conditional then, right?


Yes, in fact in Serbo-Croatian it has two names - kondicional II (conditional II) and kondicional prošli (past conditional).


Do you know if this is a general Slavic thing or just Serbo-Croatian?

Saim wrote:
(thus making memorising which infinitive endings it is possible to have in a given conjugation type irrelevant information) :?


Yeah I think the easiest way is to just learn both the infinitive and the present tense stem. So see the "basic form" of verbs as piti (pijem), jesti (jedem), pasti (padnem) and so on. I personally have no idea which conjugations can appear with which verbal suffix.

The only thing that may help in this regard is to remember when it's -ati (-em) there's usually (or always?) palatalisation. See kazati (kažem), lagati (lažem), pomagati (pomažem), mukati (mučem), disati (dišem) and pisati (pišem); of course in the case of smejati (smejem) it's not palatalised because it's already palatal.


SEG (Serbian: an Essential Grammar) has this to say:

When one of the following consonants precedes the infinitive ending -ати/ati (excluding those belonging to Type 1 conjugation), it changes to a soft consonant: k > č, g > ž, s > š, h > š, t > ć, z > ž


So it seems that it only occurs with specific sounds. That would be handy to know, but even so, learning off the present tense for will still give me the correct stem for the rest of the conjugations.

It seems this will not cover everything though. Apparently there are some forms that change in the 3rd Person plural: e.g. umeti - umem, but 3rd Per. Plur. Pres. umeju.
There seem to be a list of other exceptions given in SEG, but I think I can just label them "irregular" and move on for the moment.
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 3056
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: بارسیلونا
Country: ES Spain (España)

Re: Srpski - Ciarán12

Postby Saim » 2014-06-01, 11:24

It is indeed idući, sorry for the stupid typo. :lol:

In Polish at least there is no Futur II or Kondicional II. Etymologically Serbian Futur II corresponds to Polish future in the imperfective aspect (with the auxiliary będę, będziesz, etc. which comes from the future conjugation of the verb być, just as budem comes from biti) while for the perfective aspect the present tense conjugation has the meaning of future (wypiję, poćwiczę, polecę are present tense conjugations but are semantically future - thus we have będę lecieć but polecę instead of będę polecieć*) and the auxiliary future is ungrammatical (you can only add będę, będziesz, etc. to imperfective verbs). In Slovene and Croatian Kajkavian budem and so on (bom in Standard Slovene, bum in Zagreb dialect) are also equivalent to Futur I. The English Wiktionary in its conjugation tables for Slovene shows that they have the past conditional but no second future.

I'm not sure if there's an explanation or general rule for umem - umeju.
ماں بولی = قومی بولی

پنجابی بولو، پنجابی پڑھو، پنجابی لکھو

Ludwig Whitby
Posts: 3541
Joined: 2009-03-30, 13:44
Gender: male
Location: Belgrade
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Srpski - Ciarán12

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-06-01, 12:26

Ciarán12 wrote:
Saim wrote:
Heh, now this is reminding me of Japanese :P


In what sense, out of curiosity?


 (sr) Bojati se (bojim se) means to be afraid, bojati (bojam) means to colour.
 (ja) iru (irimasu) means to need, iru (imasu) means to be.

Bojiti (bojim) means to colour.

Ciarán12 wrote:It seems this will not cover everything though. Apparently there are some forms that change in the 3rd Person plural: e.g. umeti - umem, but 3rd Per. Plur. Pres. umeju.
There seem to be a list of other exceptions given in SEG, but I think I can just label them "irregular" and move on for the moment.

There are a couple more that follow that conjugation. I'm really not sure why.

umeti - umem - umeju
smeti - smem - smeju
uspeti - uspem - uspeju

EDIT: I'm guessing that in these cases the present stem isn't *um-, *sm- and *usp-, but rather ume-, sme- and uspe-, which means that you add the regular 3rd Per. Plur. Pres. suffix -ju and get umeju, smeju and uspeju.

User avatar
Ciarán12
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2897
Joined: 2011-12-31, 15:23
Real Name: Ciarán
Gender: male
Location: Baile Átha Cliath (Dublin)
Country: IE Ireland (Éire / Ireland)

Re: Srpski - Ciarán12

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-06-26, 11:50

I'd like to ask about the corrections Saim gave me on the text I wrote in the Wanderlust Support thread:

Imam strategiju


Okay, I get this one, lapse in concentration here.

ću pomenuću


I have noticed that the future tense auxiliary sometimes comes before the main verb and is sometimes appended to the end. Under which circumstances does it come after the main verb?

ime Kevina u na srpskom


I really need to learn my Serbian prepositions. What would the best translation of "na" be in English? I take it it governs the Instrumental case then?

,
pa on će on morati


So, word order. Is the "pa" causing a different word order to be used here? What is the rule for this?

da bi ga razumeo :)


I really have no idea how to use "da bi", can someone explain how it works?
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 4827
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Srpski - Ciarán12

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-06-26, 17:52

Zdravo! I realize I may not be the best person to answer your questions here, but if you don't mind, I'd like to try anyway. I hope it helps at least a little. :)

Ciarán12 wrote:I have noticed that the future tense auxiliary sometimes comes before the main verb and is sometimes appended to the end. Under which circumstances does it come after the main verb?

So, word order. Is the "pa" causing a different word order to be used here? What is the rule for this?

I'm grouping these two questions together because I think the issue in both cases is roughly the same: clitic ordering. So there's this quirky thing about word order in BCS that it's basically free except with clitics, which always have to be ordered in a very specific way that doesn't intuitively make that much sense. Sorry, I know this analogy is awfully dirty, but I just couldn't help myself. :blush: If you were going to bed with BCS, it would be as if she didn't give a shit whether you started with a 69 or missionary-style, except you have to give her tongue, kiss her, nibble her ear, and suck one of her nipples in that exact order, and if you get any part of that sequence wrong, she'll break it off with you at once and leave you lying there all like "WTF? What did I do wrong??" In BCS, clitics always have to come immediately after the first significant unit (which is pretty hard to define, but in the case of your two sentences here, it has to either come after or be attached to the first word).

I really need to learn my Serbian prepositions.

To be fair, prepositions are tricky in any language. :) I think u and na are particularly tricky.

What would the best translation of "na" be in English?

I think of it as meaning 'on', except of course that's not the corresponding English preposition in this case. :lol: (It can also mean 'at', 'in', 'to', or even 'for').

I take it it governs the Instrumental case then?

Nope, locative. Instrumental would be srpskim. :)

I really have no idea how to use "da bi", can someone explain how it works?

Da just means 'that' in that context; bi is a clitic (I think :para:) and comes immediately after that, and you use it with the past participle of the verb (so razumeo, not *razumeti).

User avatar
voron
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2961
Joined: 2007-07-15, 3:29
Gender: male
Country: TR Turkey (Türkiye)

Re: Srpski - Ciarán12

Postby voron » 2014-06-26, 17:54

Ciarán12 wrote:
ću pomenuću


I have noticed that the future tense auxiliary sometimes comes before the main verb and is sometimes appended to the end. Under which circumstances does it come after the main verb?

Ću is an enclitic, so are other forms of the verb "to be" in the past, present and future (except for the stressed forms jesam, jesi etc), and they have to follow the first stressed word in the sentence.

ime Kevina u na srpskom


I really need to learn my Serbian prepositions. What would the best translation of "na" be in English? I take it it governs the Instrumental case then?

It governs locative when it denotes location and it governs accusative when it denotes direction.
"In <language name>" is always "na <language name>" in Serbian, it's just idiomatic and has to be remembered.
(Except for the case when you are talking about a grammatical phenomenon that is inherent to the language. In that case you say "u <language name>". Examples:
Kako se kaže "cat" na srpskom?
U srpskom jeziku ima sedam padeža.)
Otherwise the closest English equivalent to the Serbian "na" is "on".

pa on će on morati


So, word order. Is the "pa" causing a different word order to be used here? What is the rule for this?

Again, the enclitic should come after the first stressed word.
I think Saim is hypercorrecting a bit here, since some conjunctions can be considered unstressed (such as "pa", "jer" etc) and allow placing yet another word after them, and then the enclitic.

da bi ga razumeo :)

I really have no idea how to use "da bi", can someone explain how it works?

It's just da + bi + past participle (l-participle).

User avatar
Ciarán12
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2897
Joined: 2011-12-31, 15:23
Real Name: Ciarán
Gender: male
Location: Baile Átha Cliath (Dublin)
Country: IE Ireland (Éire / Ireland)

Re: Srpski - Ciarán12

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-06-26, 20:53

vijayjohn wrote:Zdravo! I realize I may not be the best person to answer your questions here, but if you don't mind, I'd like to try anyway. I hope it helps at least a little. :)


All help is appreciated, thanks!

vijayjohn wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:I have noticed that the future tense auxiliary sometimes comes before the main verb and is sometimes appended to the end. Under which circumstances does it come after the main verb?

So, word order. Is the "pa" causing a different word order to be used here? What is the rule for this?

I'm grouping these two questions together because I think the issue in both cases is roughly the same: clitic ordering. So there's this quirky thing about word order in BCS that it's basically free except with clitics, which always have to be ordered in a very specific way that doesn't intuitively make that much sense. ... In BCS, clitics always have to come immediately after the first significant unit (which is pretty hard to define, but in the case of your two sentences here, it has to either come after or be attached to the first word).


voron wrote:Ću is an enclitic, so are other forms of the verb "to be" in the past, present and future (except for the stressed forms jesam, jesi etc), and they have to follow the first stressed word in the sentence.

...

Again, the enclitic should come after the first stressed word.
I think Saim is hypercorrecting a bit here, since some conjunctions can be considered unstressed (such as "pa", "jer" etc) and allow placing yet another word after them, and then the enclitic.


I can see I'm not going to get away with dodging this clitic business any longer. When you say the first stressed word in the sentence (or first significant unit), is that sentence-level stress/intonation? Is there any way to determine which is the stressed word without hearing the sentence spoken aloud?

vijayjohn wrote:Sorry, I know this analogy is awfully dirty, but I just couldn't help myself. :blush: If you were going to bed with BCS, it would be as if she didn't give a shit whether you started with a 69 or missionary-style, except you have to give her tongue, kiss her, nibble her ear, and suck one of her nipples in that exact order, and if you get any part of that sequence wrong, she'll break it off with you at once and leave you lying there all like "WTF? What did I do wrong??"


:lol: Weirdly, this helps. Basically, I just have to get really good at having sex with Serbian.

vijayjohn wrote:
I really need to learn my Serbian prepositions.

To be fair, prepositions are tricky in any language. :) I think u and na are particularly tricky.

What would the best translation of "na" be in English?

I think of it as meaning 'on', except of course that's not the corresponding English preposition in this case. :lol: (It can also mean 'at', 'in', 'to', or even 'for').


voron wrote:It governs locative when it denotes location and it governs accusative when it denotes direction.
"In <language name>" is always "na <language name>" in Serbian, it's just idiomatic and has to be remembered.


In every language I learn I have to equate the prepositions with an equivalent in English. It's a million times easier for me to remember that "in Serbian, you say "How do you say this on Serbian?" and remember "na = on" than it is to remember "na just means na and is equivalent to pretty much every preposition in English depending on the situation". My process necessarilly goes English > Bullshit-Directly-Translated-Grammatically-Serbian-English > Serbian.

All of this becomes more difficult when a preposition can govern more than one case, as English has no equivalent to case in most instances.

vijayjohn wrote:
I take it it governs the Instrumental case then?

Nope, locative. Instrumental would be srpskim. :)


I see. That's because sprski is actually an adjective, right? I haven't gone through the case paradigms for adjectives yet (I just saw ~om and thought "instrumental case ending").

vijayjohn wrote:
I really have no idea how to use "da bi", can someone explain how it works?

Da just means 'that' in that context; bi is a clitic (I think :para:) and comes immediately after that, and you use it with the past participle of the verb (so razumeo, not *razumeti).


voron wrote:It's just da + bi + past participle (l-participle).


Okay, and "bi + past participle" normally means "would do" (or in this case, "would understand" - Conditional I), right? So it literally means "that he would understand"? (I found it while looking for a construction meaning "in order to")
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 4827
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Srpski - Ciarán12

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-06-27, 2:09

Ciarán12 wrote:I can see I'm not going to get away with dodging this clitic business any longer.

Yeah. :lol: I have this grammar of BCS that already starts talking about the word order with clitics from the very first chapter. It's complicated. I'm still trying to learn it myself. :lol: In fact, whenever I write on this forum, I keep having to think, "Wait, where is that clitic supposed to go again? Is that the right place to put it? Or should it go before that word?" I guess it just takes getting used to, really. :P

When you say the first stressed word in the sentence (or first significant unit), is that sentence-level stress/intonation? Is there any way to determine which is the stressed word without hearing the sentence spoken aloud?

Hmm, it doesn't have anything to do with sentence-level stress AFAIK. But basically, as I understand it, you start putting clitics after the first noun, verb, pronoun, adverb, subordinating conjunction, or even (optionally) possessive pronoun (putting it after the possessive pronoun is especially common in Croatian, it seems).

Weirdly, this helps.

I'm glad it did. :D

Basically, I just have to get really good at having sex with Serbian.

Exactly! For me, that's how it is with any language, really. I'm a language whore, after all. :lol:

In every language I learn I have to equate the prepositions with an equivalent in English. It's a million times easier for me to remember that "in Serbian, you say "How do you say this on Serbian?" and remember "na = on" than it is to remember "na just means na and is equivalent to pretty much every preposition in English depending on the situation". My process necessarilly goes English > Bullshit-Directly-Translated-Grammatically-Serbian-English > Serbian.

Yeah, I think I can relate to that. :) I usually think of na as meaning 'on', too, even though I know it really doesn't. :P

All of this becomes more difficult when a preposition can govern more than one case, as English has no equivalent to case in most instances.

Maybe, although you could think of it like "na + Locative means 'on', na + Accusative means 'onto'." I think that's what I do. :lol:

I see. That's because sprski is actually an adjective, right?

Okay, and "bi + past participle" normally means "would do" (or in this case, "would understand" - Conditional I), right? So it literally means "that he would understand"? (I found it while looking for a construction meaning "in order to")

Yep, yep, yep! :) (OMG, I finally figured out what you were saying in that sentence! Your Serbian's gotten so good I really had to think through it and remind myself of everything da can mean. :lol:).

User avatar
kibo
Forum Administrator
Posts: 6936
Joined: 2003-12-16, 18:35
Real Name: B.
Gender: male
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Srpski - Ciarán12

Postby kibo » 2014-06-29, 6:54

voron wrote:
pa on će on morati


So, word order. Is the "pa" causing a different word order to be used here? What is the rule for this?

Again, the enclitic should come after the first stressed word.
I think Saim is hypercorrecting a bit here, since some conjunctions can be considered unstressed (such as "pa", "jer" etc) and allow placing yet another word after them, and then the enclitic.


Actually, "pa će on morati..." is the neutral word order (it's not hypercorrecting). Enclitics come after a sentence-starting proclitic conjunction (except i, a and ni). Another example: "Da si me pitao" (if you had asked me) is pronounced as a single stress unit (dasimepítao).
Goals:
 (es) ➜ C1 (DELE)
 (de) ➜ B2
 (sv) ➜ B1/B2


Return to “Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian (Bosanski/Hrvatski/Српски)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron