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IpseDixit - Português de Portugal - Page 3 - UniLang

IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby Luís » 2014-11-08, 11:08

IpseDixit wrote:Hoje quero falar de um ciclo de livros do qual gosto muito: o ciclo de Terramar de Ursula K. Le Guin. É um ciclo fantasyde fantasia colocado situado no arquipélago imaginário de Terramar. Neste arquipélago umas pessoas têm poderes mágicos, mas precisam de anos de ensinos para conseguir os dominá-los e então tornar-se magos verdadeiros. O protagonista da história é o Ged, o filho dum pastor de Gont, a qual que é uma ilha do Norte. O Ged é órfão de mãe, e passa uma boa parte da sua infância com uma tia que é uma bruxa "do campo" (isto é como são chamadas as bruxas que não recebem uma educação mágica formal, mas só empírica). O primeiro contato do Ged com a magia acontece quando ouve a sua tia recitar uma fórmula mágica às ovelhas para as fazer aproximar-se dela. O Ged, curioso, tenta recitar a mesma fórmula e consegue em isso, e desde ali, começa toda a sua aventura que o trazerá levará a ser um dos magos mais poderosos e sábios do que de sempre. Todavia não quería falar da trama (também por que o ciclo é longo 1500 páginas) mais do que gosto deste ciclo.

Acho que a Le Guin sejaé uma escritora muito talentosa e muito embora este ciclo seja pelos para jovens, há uns temas sérios e interessantes como aqueles de género e da religião, além disso, gosto muito do facto que a Le Guin nunca dá respostas superficiais ou banais, e preferivelmente não dá nenhuma resposta de modo algum. Gosto muito de umas ideias como o facto de que há uma "Língua Verdadeira" que é a língua da criação do mundo, e os magos têm de saber esta língua se querem fazer as magias. Uma das coisas interessantes desta língua é que não tem hiperónimos, e então se um mago quer dominar o mar, no puedes não pode somente pronunciar a palavra por para mar na língua verdadeira mas tem de conhecer o nome de todas as partes do mar, senão o que vai conseguir é dominar só as partes do mar que não têm um nome próprio. Também as pessoas têm dois nomes, o nome público para todos, e o nome verdadeiro que só as pessoas mais caras próximas conhecem, porque conhecer o nome verdadeiro significa ter poder sobre uma pessoa.

Creio que a ideia da língua da criação como muitas outras ideias, a Le Guin pegou-as de várias religiões. Por exemplo no segundo livro fala-se do Templo da ilha de Atuan, esse templo tem uma sacerdotisa que é escolhida porque crê-se ser a reencarnação da primeira sacerdotisa do templo, que é exatamente a maneira pela qual os budistas tibetanos escolhem o Dalai Lama. No livro fala-se também do Equilíbrio do mundo o qual os magos têm de levar em conta, que me parece ser muito perto dos ensinamentos taoistas. Além disso, há uma cerimónia que se faz aos 13 anos que marca a passagem para a idade adulta e na qual se recebe-se o nome verdadeiro, e isso é um pouco similar ao Bar Mitzvah judaico.

Do que gosto é também da variedade dos lugares que há no livro, onde cada ilha têm tradições próprias e maneiras de viver. Todavia acho que a Le Guin podía criar mais variedade línguistica em vez há ou pelos menos fala-se de três línguas e alguns dialetos, isso parece-me bastante estranho como a Le Guin sempre tem dito (disse?) ter uma grande paixão pelos idiomas e além disso é também criadora disso (em italiano temos a palavra glottoteta, há algo similar em português?). Apesar deste pequeno defeito, este ciclo de livros é muito bonito.


"Ciclo" normalmente usa-se mais para filmes. Para livros acho que seria mais indicado falar de um "colecção".

Não acho que acha algo similar em português para glottoteta...
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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-11-08, 15:03

Obrigado Luís, mas qual é correto nesta frase? Tem dito ou disse?

isso parece-me bastante estranho como a Le Guin sempre tem dito (disse?) ter uma grande paixão pelos idiomas

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby Luís » 2014-11-15, 13:37

IpseDixit wrote:Obrigado Luís, mas qual é correto nesta frase? Tem dito ou disse?

isso parece-me bastante estranho como a Le Guin sempre tem dito (disse?) ter uma grande paixão pelos idiomas


As duas, na realidade.

Ela sempre disse ter uma grande paixão por línguas
(She always said she had a passion for languages)

Ela sempre tem dito que tem uma grande paixão por línguas
(She has always said she has a passion for languages)
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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-12-04, 12:37

I don't understand... if ê is [e] and é is [ɛ], ô is [o] and ó is [ɔ], what are â and á?

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby Luís » 2014-12-04, 13:14

There are languages in which accentuation indicates only pronunciation (French) and there are others in which it indicates only stress (Spanish), but in Portuguese it's actually both.

This means you need to consider the vowel in the stressed syllable.

You use ´ with [a], [ɛ], [i] [ĩ], [ɔ], [u], [ũ]
You use ^ with [ɐ],[ɐ̃], [e] [ẽ], [o], [õ]

Água [a]
ambulância [ɐ̃]
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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-12-04, 13:41

Obrigado :)

Btw, how do I say "thanks for..."? As in thanks for correcting me. Obrigado por corrigí-me?

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby Luís » 2014-12-04, 19:39

What you said is correct, but it's corrigir-me. You only ommit the -r in the infinitive when the pronoun is o/os/a/as.
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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-12-09, 18:28

A few other questions:

1) What's the difference between uns and alguns? For instance, is there a different nuance between uns livros and alguns livros?

2) Is the subjunctive used mainly with negative clauses like in Spanish? That's to say, não acho que seja but acho que é?

3) With strangers in forums or chats, do I have to use você or tu?

4) I've just realized that Portugues has [ɣ]. I thought it had only [g]; so, when do I have to use [ɣ]?

5) Is pra the colloquial version of para?

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby Luís » 2014-12-10, 22:23

1) There is a slight nuance, but I wouldn't bother too much about it, since the two are mostly interchangeable. When you want to say "some of..." it's always "alguns" though.

2) Generally, yes. But it also depends on the verb. In many cases you have to use the subjunctive in affirmative sentences as well.

3) Mostly "tu", unless it's a very formal forum/chat.

4) Forget about that... :P Not even Portuguese linguists agree on it. In my opinion, I don't think we use it in Lisbon.

5) Yep. You can see it written like that in poems or songs as well (because of the metric). The really colloquial pronunciation would be "pa" even... :P
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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-12-10, 23:02

Thanks :)

I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on number 1), though. :) I'd be curious to know this difference even though it's very slight.

Other questions:

6) Does Portuguese have the "que vs de que" distinction like in Spanish?

7) Is tá the colloquial version of está?

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby Youngfun » 2014-12-11, 1:58

I usually understand "uns livros" as "an uncertain number of books" (=dei libri / un po' di libri), while "alguns livros" can also means "some kinds of books, or some of the books... not all the books" (=alcuni libri).
Though I'm not sure, so I'll wait for Luís's answer too.

I'm not sure about 6).

7) Yes.
There's also:
(eu) tou in Portugal / tô in Brazil
(tu) tas
(nós) tamos
(vocês / eles) tão -> but I'm not sure if this is commonly used, as it can be confused with the adverb 'tão'.

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby Luís » 2014-12-12, 11:39

Youngfun is basically right. My idea is that "uns" refer to a more general unspecified amount, while "alguns" mostly refers to a certain amount out of a larger group.

6) Yes

7) Yes, you can take the "es-" out of "estar" in all tenses :)

Youngfun, you don't have to worry about that. Even worse, in the past tense / future subjunctive "ter" and "(es)tar" end up being conjugated exactly the same. So "se eu tiver" can either mean "If I'll have" or "If I'll be" and "ele teve" can either be "he had" or "he was". Context will make everything clear.
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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-12-16, 15:48

I was doing an exercise where I had to choose the right verb between ser and estar and a sentence was this:

a sala ___ muito escura.

The solutions say the right verb is ser (a sala é muito escura), which I suppose is ok but to me it conveys the idea that the room is permanently dark and there isn't anything we can do to make it bright.

But can't I also say a sala está muito escura? To mean that momentarily it is dark but, say, if we open the blinders, it can become bright?
Last edited by IpseDixit on 2014-12-16, 21:52, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby Luís » 2014-12-16, 21:12

Yes, everything you said is correct :)
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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-12-16, 21:40

:whoo:

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby osias » 2014-12-17, 0:56

:yep:
 (es):Madrid
 (ca):Barcelona
 (sv):Stockholm
 (en):Gotham City
 (pt-BR):Vitória

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-12-18, 22:44

I'm studying the hypothetical clauses. So far I've studied the one with the imperfect subjunctive in the if clause, and the one with the future subjunctive.

But I can't find the "if I had been... I would have done..." kind of hypothetical clause. Can you tell me how to form it in Portuguese?

---

12 hours later...

... maybe I've found it, is it:

se eu tivesse sido... teria feito... :?:

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby osias » 2014-12-19, 9:30

Provavelmente é isso mesmo, mas eu fico inseguro de opinar no tópico de português de Portugal, porque né?
 (es):Madrid
 (ca):Barcelona
 (sv):Stockholm
 (en):Gotham City
 (pt-BR):Vitória

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IpseDixit
Posts: 6166
Joined: 2013-05-06, 21:06
Gender: male
Location: Florence
Country: IT Italy (Italia)

Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-12-20, 20:35

Let's hope some Portuguese will answer soon then. :lol:

I was also wondering if this thing is true for EP as well as BP.

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osias
Posts: 3185
Joined: 2007-09-09, 17:38
Real Name: Osias Jota
Gender: male
Location: Vitória
Country: BR Brazil (Brasil)
Contact:

Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby osias » 2014-12-21, 0:13

Pelo que vi em outro post que estou com preguiça de procurar, é até mais comum em Portugal.
 (es):Madrid
 (ca):Barcelona
 (sv):Stockholm
 (en):Gotham City
 (pt-BR):Vitória


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