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IpseDixit - Português de Portugal - Page 5 - UniLang

IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby Luís » 2014-12-29, 20:24

Não sei... :lol:

Algum exemplo de uma frase semelhante mas sem verbos de movimento que te consigas lembrar? Porque eu não...
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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby osias » 2014-12-29, 22:14

Talvez "tentar".
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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-12-30, 17:05

No youtube achei um video chamado "manutenção de um pug", todavia não tive tempo para olhá-lo mas agora tenho uma dúvida, o termo manutenção se usa realmente com os animais ou era um título irônico? Porque em italiano a palavra manutenzione se usa somente com as coisas, por exemplo um carro.

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby osias » 2014-12-30, 21:43

Nunca vi a frase antes, mas não acho que seja irônico. Teria que ver o vídeo.
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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-12-30, 22:03


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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-12-30, 22:36

Onde devem ficar o pronomes de objeto nas frases como primeiro verbo + segundo verbo ao infinitivo. Por exemplo, tenho de dizer: queria dizer-te ou queria te dizer? Estou a te dizer ou estou a dizer-te? Vai te dizer ou vai dizer-te?

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby osias » 2014-12-31, 2:56

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby osias » 2014-12-31, 3:04

IpseDixit wrote:Onde devem ficar o pronomes de objeto nas frases como primeiro verbo + segundo verbo ao infinitivo. Por exemplo, tenho de dizer: queria dizer-te ou queria te dizer? Estou a te dizer ou estou a dizer-te? Vai te dizer ou vai dizer-te?
Vamos esperar os portugueses responderem. No Brasil isso está relacionado a formalidade versus informalidade.
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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-12-31, 14:43

osias wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:Onde devem ficar o pronomes de objeto nas frases como primeiro verbo + segundo verbo ao infinitivo. Por exemplo, tenho de dizer: queria dizer-te ou queria te dizer? Estou a te dizer ou estou a dizer-te? Vai te dizer ou vai dizer-te?
Vamos esperar os portugueses responderem. No Brasil isso está relacionado a formalidade versus informalidade.


E qual é a mais formal no Brasil?

---

O que é que quer dizer a fio?

---

A preposição à como é pronunciada?

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby osias » 2014-12-31, 15:31

IpseDixit wrote:
osias wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:Onde devem ficar o pronomes de objeto nas frases como primeiro verbo + segundo verbo ao infinitivo. Por exemplo, tenho de dizer: queria dizer-te ou queria te dizer? Estou a te dizer ou estou a dizer-te? Vai te dizer ou vai dizer-te?
Vamos esperar os portugueses responderem. No Brasil isso está relacionado a formalidade versus informalidade.


E qual é a mais formal no Brasil?


"dizer-te"


O que é que quer dizer a fio?

Se for na expressão "anos a fio", implica que foi algo demorado e sofrido.

A preposição à como é pronunciada?
a
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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby Luís » 2014-12-31, 15:50

osias wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:Onde devem ficar o pronomes de objeto nas frases como primeiro verbo + segundo verbo ao infinitivo. Por exemplo, tenho de dizer: queria dizer-te ou queria te dizer? Estou a te dizer ou estou a dizer-te? Vai te dizer ou vai dizer-te?
Vamos esperar os portugueses responderem. No Brasil isso está relacionado a formalidade versus informalidade.


No Brasil a forma com ênclise é mais formal porque a próclise é a forma preferida de colocação dos pronomes. Em Portugal essa associação não existe, por isso as duas formas são semelhantes.

Mas... (há sempre um mas :P )

Ortograficamente consideramos que o pronome está sempre agarrado ao verbo anterior, embora em termos de pronúncia seja igual.

Vou dizer-te
Vou-te dizer = (vou te) dizer
vou te dizer = vou (te dizer) --> seria mais comum no Brasil
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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-12-31, 15:57

Obrigado osias e Luís!

Para fazer uma pergunta (sobretudo quando estamos a pedir algo) por uma maneira gentil posso usar, como em italiano, este tipo de locução: "não é que, por acaso, etc etc...?" ou "não é que etc etc...?"

Por exemplo: não é que (, por acaso,) podes emprestar-me 5 euros?

---

Hoje achei este tipo de construção que nunca vi antes: concentrar-mo-nos... podem-me explicar o que é que significa? :dunno:

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby Youngfun » 2015-01-01, 7:24

Infinito pessoal com mesóclise?

But shouldn't that be concentrarmo-nos? Hmmm I'm confused.

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-01-01, 15:30

Não é a única ligatura (não estou com certeza que se chama assim) estranha que achei, por exemplo estive a ler este PDF sobre o infinitivo pessoal onde há esta frase: Vistas as dificuldades acrescidas que o emprego da forma flexionada no registo literário suscita, limitar-me-ei, nesta breve exposição, a usar exemplos da linguagem do quotidiano.

E em O Alquimista achei esta aqui: enquanto pensava se devia ou não contar a ele o que o velho dis-sera.

:dunno: :dunno:

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby osias » 2015-01-01, 19:05

IpseDixit wrote:E em O Alquimista achei esta aqui: enquanto pensava se devia ou não contar a ele o que o velho dis-sera.

:dunno: :dunno:

Erro de digitação. Vulgarmente conhecido como "typo". Paulo Coelho falou numa entrevista que não deixa revisarem o texto dele antes de publicar.

Essa "concentrar-mo-nos" tá estranho, acho que tem um hífen só. Significa "focus ourselves".

"limitar-me-ei" é totalmente normal na língua formal/escrita.

Novamente, aguardarei os portugueses para complementarem e corrigirem o que estou a falar. Aguardar-lhes-ei.
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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby Luís » 2015-01-02, 8:38

I think the books you're reading are suffering from some typographic issues... :para:

"Dis-sera" doesn't even make sense.

"Concentrar-mo-nos" should be "concentrarmo-nos"

"Limitar-me-ei" is correct, though.
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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby Luís » 2015-01-02, 19:40

Is that a printed book or some online version?

I was thinking about it and it seems to have to do with the splitting of words at the end of lines. For instance, you always split the digraphs "ss" and "rr" in half.

So, in the original version you might have had something as:

yadda yadda yadda dis-
era
yadda yadda yadd


But with a simple change of font or size, you suddenly now have a word such as "dis-sera" in the middle of a line.
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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-01-05, 13:46

Sim, eu penso que é como dizes tu Luís, estou a ler aquele livro em e-book e achei outros casos assim, também com os substantivos (e não estou a referir-me aos substantivos compostos).

Concentrar-mo-nos o achei num comentário no youtube então suponho que não temos de surpreender-nos muito.

Quanto a limatar-me-ei, naqueles outros tempos se pode usar esta construção? Por exemplo, posso dizer limitar-me-ia? E além do mais, também limitarei-me seria correto?

---

Uma pergunta de fonética:

Eu pensava que o o final nas palavras era pronunciado como [u] e os como [uʃ], [uz] ou [uʒ] dependente da palavra seguente.
Todavia eu sinto bastante frequentemente palavras como acho e povo onde o o final não é pronunciado como u mas só como um schwa (ou pelos menos penso que é um schwa), e igualmente, sinto palavras como todos pronunciadas como [tudʃ ]. Issa é uma peculiaridade de alguma área ou há alguma regra que não conheço?

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby TeneReef » 2015-01-06, 16:49

IpseDixit wrote:Todavia eu sinto bastante frequentemente palavras como acho e povo onde o o final não é pronunciado como u mas só como um schwa (ou pelos menos penso que é um schwa), e igualmente, sinto palavras como todos pronunciadas como [tudʃ ]. Issa é uma peculiaridade de alguma área ou há alguma regra que não conheço?


Isso é normal no Algarve, e na fala lisboeta (quer dizer faz parte da norma culta, numa fala não-pausada, segundo este livro: http://www.amazon.com/Phonology-Portugu ... B004ELBMZS )
learning:  (ne)  (sv)  (es-ar)  (hi) (Assamese, Gujarati, Hindi, Telugu)

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Re: IpseDixit - Português de Portugal

Postby Youngfun » 2015-01-11, 11:05

IpseDixit wrote:Quanto a limatar-me-ei, naqueles outros tempos se pode usar esta construção? Por exemplo, posso dizer limitar-me-ia? E além do mais, também limitarei-me seria correto?

Nel futuro indicativo e nel presente congiuntivo.
In Portogallo il mesóclise (quando il clitico è ficcato in mezzo alla forma verbale come un panino) è l'unica forma corretto in questi due tempi verbali.
In Brasile molti dicono "me limitaria".

***limitar-me-ia = limitaria + me, NON *limitarei + me.


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