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Hallo, J! - UniLang

Hallo, J!

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Hallo, J!

Postby Æren » 2010-08-16, 19:00

So, here I am in this part... of the forum, world and languages :)

I don't know how further I'll get. I am posting my first attempt of a written text after I've ended my first lesson from the book. I'll be very thankful for any further comments and corrections!
There's also something which I can't understand: why one writes は for wa instead of わ?

私は日本人じゃありません。あなたも日本人ではありません。あなたは中国人です。
:<3:  (pt )  (es-ES )  (fr )
:D  (uk )  (no)  (lt)  (de-AT)
:?  (fa )  (tl)  (tr )  (cs)  (ja)  (he )
:para:  (ir )  (hu )

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Re: Hallo, J!

Postby meidei » 2010-08-16, 19:26

Æren wrote:So, here I am in this part... of the forum, world and languages :)

I don't know how further I'll get. I am posting my first attempt of a written text after I've ended my first lesson from the book. I'll be very thankful for any further comments and corrections!
There's also something which I can't understand: why one writes は for wa instead of わ?

私は日本人じゃありません。あなたも日本人ではありません。あなたは中国人です。


The reason for writing は but reading "wa", or を but reading "o" goes back in the pre-war times were Japanese kana orthography reflected the pronunciation as it was centuries ago (before even Meiji era).
Past then, h- kana in non-initial position were pronounced as w-. So words like 川 (kawa) were spelled as か instead of か. The は particle probably was pronounced wa for the same reason, as typically is considered a part of the word that marks.
Same with わゐ・ゑを (wa, wi - we, wo). Once being distinct sounds, now all of them excluding Wa were merged with the pure vowels(i, e, o). In the past, 男 (otoko) was spelled とこ.

After WW2 the Japanese decided to simplify their kana spelling. Word initial ゐゑを became いえお and non-initial はひふへほ became わいうえお. It wasn't big deal because words like kawa or otoko were spelled in kanji anyway, so the change in their kana spelling was easily accepted.
But particles は and を being high-traffic words always spelled in kana faced resistance and are still spelled that way instead of わ and お.
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Re: Hallo, J!

Postby hashi » 2010-08-17, 3:27

The historical kana usage was horrible. There was no one way to pronounce a kana. One that confuses me is 今日 (きょう) which (I think, I might need to check) was written: きよふ as ふ was often used to lengthen things.

There are no errors in your Japanese thus far :)

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Re: Hallo, J!

Postby Æren » 2010-08-17, 9:48

Thanks :) It makes much more sense now!

hashi wrote:There are no errors in your Japanese thus far :)

:woohoo:
:<3:  (pt )  (es-ES )  (fr )
:D  (uk )  (no)  (lt)  (de-AT)
:?  (fa )  (tl)  (tr )  (cs)  (ja)  (he )
:para:  (ir )  (hu )

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Re: Hallo, J!

Postby Æren » 2010-08-19, 13:47

New writings:

あなたはにほんごのせんせいがすきです。
おとおとはスポオッがすきです。私はそれがきらいです。
あなたはこれがすきですか。


New problem: How can I write the kanjis without looking through the endless lists of symbols in MS Word? I can't quite get how to do it in the vitual keyboard I use - http://www.gate2home.com/?language=ja.
:<3:  (pt )  (es-ES )  (fr )
:D  (uk )  (no)  (lt)  (de-AT)
:?  (fa )  (tl)  (tr )  (cs)  (ja)  (he )
:para:  (ir )  (hu )

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Re: Hallo, J!

Postby meidei » 2010-08-19, 15:13

Æren wrote:New writings:

あなたはにほんごのせんせいがすきです。あなたは日本語の先生が好きです
おととはスポーツがすきです。私はそれがきらいです。弟はスポーツが好きです。私はそれが嫌いです。
あなたはこれがすきですか。あなたはこれが好きですか?


New problem: How can I write the kanjis without looking through the endless lists of symbols in MS Word? I can't quite get how to do it in the vitual keyboard I use - http://www.gate2home.com/?language=ja.


Red is mistakes, blue is the sentence is spelled in the usual "mixed Kanji-kana script". But if you don't know much kanji yet, it's ok to use hiragana.

By otooto you meant brother I believe. It's spelled otouto in hiragana, even if it's read as otooto.I am not really sure why the orthography reform kept おう and えい... Probably back after WW2 they were still pronouncing them as diphthongs rather than long vowels (as it is now). えい is still undergoing a monopthongization, some pronounce /ei/, others /e:/. But おう is always /o:/.

For katakana long vowels, ー is preferred over アア、イイ、エエ、エイ、オオ、オウ、ウウ.

You can install a Japanese input method on your computer and type directly in any application.
There is a Phonetic Spelling -> Hiragana -> Mixed Kanji-Kana process though, that's something you can't avoid.
What operating system are you using?

PS. I hope I am not confusing you with all this historic spelling references :)
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Re: Hallo, J!

Postby Æren » 2010-08-19, 20:47

Ah, yes. I know about the spelling of the long vowels, but still forget about it when it comes to writing it alone.

And, no, historical references are very interesting and I am very thankful for them :)
:<3:  (pt )  (es-ES )  (fr )
:D  (uk )  (no)  (lt)  (de-AT)
:?  (fa )  (tl)  (tr )  (cs)  (ja)  (he )
:para:  (ir )  (hu )

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Re: Hallo, J!

Postby hashi » 2010-08-19, 23:10

meidei wrote:But おう is always /o:/.


そうですけど、/oɯ/と言っている衒学的な人もいます。

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Re: Hallo, J!

Postby meidei » 2010-08-19, 23:48

hashi wrote:
meidei wrote:But おう is always /o:/.


そうですけど、/oɯ/と言っている衒学的な人もいます。

Interesting. I hope is not considered spam, but this thread inspired me to write a post about the monopthongization of おう&えい in Japanese and I'd love to have some input from people with in-depth knowledge of Japanese or/and linguistics.
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Re: Hallo, J!

Postby hashi » 2010-08-20, 0:00

meidei wrote:
hashi wrote:
meidei wrote:But おう is always /o:/.


そうですけど、/oɯ/と言っている衒学的な人もいます。

Interesting. I hope is not considered spam, but this thread inspired me to write a post about the monopthongization of おう&えい in Japanese and I'd love to have some input from people with in-depth knowledge of Japanese or/and linguistics.


What intrigues me is the fact that there are words which are still spelled with おお like 大きい(おおきい)、覆う(おおう)、多い(おおい)、狼(おおかみ), yet there are few words which have the spelling of ええ besides the word ええ itself. (This is why I get really irritated seeing the likes of 学校(がっこう)and 大阪(おおさか)both romanised as 'oo'). To be honest, I don't know a lot about the monophthongisation of those diphthongs, have you tried searching for materials in Japanese?

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Re: Hallo, J!

Postby meidei » 2010-08-20, 0:18

hashi wrote:What intrigues me is the fact that there are words which are still spelled with おお like 大きい(おおきい)、覆う(おおう)、多い(おおい)、狼(おおかみ), yet there are few words which have the spelling of ええ besides the word ええ itself. (This is why I get really irritated seeing the likes of 学校(がっこう)and 大阪(おおさか)both romanised as 'oo'). To be honest, I don't know a lot about the monophthongisation of those diphthongs, have you tried searching for materials in Japanese?

I think ええ it's the only word with a pure long "e" sound (Y!辞書 gives 会厭 as well, but it's only because it's a compound, え・えん)

Currently I am reading a historical grammar of Japanese published before the kana spelling reforms (in English of course) and it also gives me the impression that eg セウ was pronounced しょ・う and not しょー.
I am not familiar with the linguistic terms in Japanese and I don't really know what to search about. I will do so as soon as I reach the required level of Japanese for reading academic writing though.
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Re: Hallo, J!

Postby hashi » 2010-08-20, 0:40

meidei wrote:
hashi wrote:What intrigues me is the fact that there are words which are still spelled with おお like 大きい(おおきい)、覆う(おおう)、多い(おおい)、狼(おおかみ), yet there are few words which have the spelling of ええ besides the word ええ itself. (This is why I get really irritated seeing the likes of 学校(がっこう)and 大阪(おおさか)both romanised as 'oo'). To be honest, I don't know a lot about the monophthongisation of those diphthongs, have you tried searching for materials in Japanese?

I think ええ it's the only word with a pure long "e" sound (Y!辞書 gives 会厭 as well, but it's only because it's a compound, え・えん)

Currently I am reading a historical grammar of Japanese published before the kana spelling reforms (in English of course) and it also gives me the impression that eg セウ was pronounced しょ・う and not しょー.
I am not familiar with the linguistic terms in Japanese and I don't really know what to search about. I will do so as soon as I reach the required level of Japanese for reading academic writing though.


Haha, what does that mean for the word 永遠(えいえん)? えええん xD

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Re: Hallo, J!

Postby meidei » 2010-08-20, 9:50

And I think we should seek pure ええ and おお in 訓読み/native Japanese words only.
It's not a coincidence that most of the words I can think of that contain おお are Yamato-kotoba, imho.
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Re: Hallo, J!

Postby Æren » 2010-08-31, 16:14

I've met some postpositions for place.
I don't know, though whether the の(should I call it linker?) gets its vowel prolonged when the postposition starts with う. I particularly bear in mind this: -の-うえ-に.
:<3:  (pt )  (es-ES )  (fr )
:D  (uk )  (no)  (lt)  (de-AT)
:?  (fa )  (tl)  (tr )  (cs)  (ja)  (he )
:para:  (ir )  (hu )

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Re: Hallo, J!

Postby Kasuya » 2010-08-31, 16:33

Æren wrote:I've met some postpositions for place.
I don't know, though whether the の(should I call it linker?) gets its vowel prolonged when the postposition starts with う. I particularly bear in mind this: -の-うえ-に.

Nope. In の上に, the の is not prolonged.

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Re: Hallo, J!

Postby Psi-Lord » 2010-08-31, 17:07

Whenever you have a morpheme boundary, the vowels are pronounced separately.

E.g.

公理 (こうり) (axiom) = (kô) + (ri) = kôri
小売 (こうり) (retail) = (ko) + 売り (uri) = kouri

As for ええ versus えい:

If you read the modern Japanese orthography carefully, you'll find it is undefined whether the pronunciation of えい in Standard Japanese is "ei" or "ê." It says long vowels are written as ああ, いい, うう, ええ, and おう, and this means when the orthography was defined, the pronunciation of えい remained "ei" in most dialects, including Tôkyô dialect. Even now, we hesitate to pronounce 時計 (とけい) as "tokê" when we sing, while we commonly sing 行 (ゆ) こう as "yukô," not "yukou."

Source: http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/~ts/japanese/message/jpnF8DpNLdXF88eK8Ii.html
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gyrus
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Re: Hallo, J!

Postby gyrus » 2010-08-31, 20:52

There are some words with ou where it is usually pronounced /oɯ/ except in fast speech, such as mayou, omou, and in words ending with -dou which don't end in 堂. My teacher tells me in the case of the last one it's because there are so many words ending in 堂 that it's useful to differentiate.
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Re: Hallo, J!

Postby meidei » 2010-08-31, 21:28

Interesting, Psi-Lord. I'll read it as soon as am done with other obligations.

As for 迷う and 思う, there are part of a greater pattern which says okurigana う is pronounced separately. I suppose this is also a case of morpheme boundary as Psi-Lord said.

Side note: I said とけえ for 時計 more than once :oops: And せんせえ for 先生.
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Re: Hallo, J!

Postby Æren » 2010-09-22, 15:58

Here're some more sentences I wrote some days ago.

1. 私は今日ブルガスへ帰りました。
2. 僕は時々朝コーピーを飲みます。
3. 母もコーピーを飲みます。
4. 私と弟は朝学校へ行きます。
5. 僕はいつもうさで食べます。
6. お父さんは月曜日に映画を見ません。
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Re: Hallo, J!

Postby hashi » 2010-09-23, 0:06

Æren wrote:Here're some more sentences I wrote some days ago.

1. 私は今日ブルガスへ帰りました。
2. 僕は時々朝コーーを飲みます。
3. 母もコーーを飲みます。
4. 私と弟は朝学校へ行きます。
5. 僕はいつもうさで食べます。
6. お父さんは月曜日に映画を見ませんでした


1 - right
2,3 - it is kōhī, not kōpī.
4 - right
5 - what is usa-de?
6 - is it meant to be past tense?


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