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European Parliament Elections 2014 - Page 7 - UniLang

European Parliament Elections 2014

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Iván » 2014-05-27, 18:32

So, I seldom take part in political threads, but I just read an article and I would like to share it here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05 ... 91873.html
Minkä nuorena oppii, sen vanhana taitaa.

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-05-27, 18:38

I'm just saying: very biased. They can't all be extreme whack-jobs.
Well, that was a thing.
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-27, 21:46

If the EU is currently too good to make a point for leaving and you have to weaken it first, that is artificial worsening for me. It means that you don't want to make your point based on what the EU is today or how things could be improved in the future, but based on something you intentionally made look bad so that it isn't better than your alternative any more.


Actually euroskeptics do make a point based of how the EU is today, and they do want to improve the situation of Europe, they simply think that the EU is not the right way to go. And you don't need to artificially weaken it, this is a figment of your imagination, there are already many flaws in the EU.

And yes, they do have a right to be represented. They even have the right to use that representation only for blocking and not for constructive participation.


They may not be constructive from your europeist viewpoint, but actually they do intend to be constructive.

They are still wrong and would better just recognise that.


Wrong in what?

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby kevin » 2014-05-27, 22:22

IpseDixit wrote:Actually euroskeptics do make a point based of how the EU is today, and they do want to improve the situation of Europe, they simply think that the EU is not the right way to go. And you don't need to artificially weaken it, this is a figment of your imagination, there are already many flaws in the EU.

The notion that you have to weaken the EU before you can realistically leave it came from xivrox. I'm merely drawing conclusions from his arguments.

I'll be the first to admit that there's plenty of room for improvement in the EU. I just think that going back to a state with border controls and where you can't freely move and work where you want isn't one of those improvements, and that the problems must be addressed inside the EU.

I feel much more connected to the people in Austria and South Tyrol than to those in Northern Germany, and Paris is half the distance compared to Berlin. Thinking nationally just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-27, 22:53

The notion that you have to weaken the EU before you can realistically leave it came from xivrox. I'm merely drawing conclusions from his arguments.


oh I must've overlooked that.

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2014-05-28, 0:34

kevin wrote:If the EU is currently too good to make a point for leaving and you have to weaken it first, that is artificial worsening for me. It means that you don't want to make your point based on what the EU is today or how things could be improved in the future, but based on something you intentionally made look bad so that it isn't better than your alternative any more.
I explained what I meant already.

And yes, they do have a right to be represented. They even have the right to use that representation only for blocking and not for constructive participation. They are still wrong and would better just recognise that. ;)
:para: :lol:

The parliament has a say on much more topics than before.
This is faaaaaaar from an improvement.

By the way, I was talking only about the parliament, but the Lisbon treaty is also what gave you the legal option of leaving the EU. You should probably like it if you want to stay consistent.
Seriously, you don’t need to write an entire *constitution* of the EU (because this is what it is basically) to add such a clause. So no, I’m strongly opposed to it, it was a move in the entirely wrong direction. Also, I say it’s “practically impossible” because the EU (don’t really remember which of their institutions exactly but it doesn’t matter) needs to agree on that. So it’s not possible to declare independence unilaterally.

But why do you want all of this political crap that Warsaw is imposing on you? Don't you want to take power back home, to the voivodesips or even cities?
First of all, I’m for much enhanced autonomy of regions, so yeah, I would like to see regions having more power. Secondly, yes, I have much more in common with Warsaw than Brussels. Thirdly, the less of that the better, the state should only have control over military, police, and judicial system. Not decide what citizens can or cannot buy/eat/do.

Where I live, there was the Kingdom of Württemberg some 150 years ago. It was member in associations like the German Confederation, but really an independent state (like all the other small states in what is Germany today). Today Württemberg is not even a German federal state any more: It was merged with Baden in 1952, and there was a lot of protest. But today nobody cares any more, the old states play a role mostly when there's a football match between Stuttgart and Karlsruhe or Freiburg. There's little reason to cry for "taking the power back home".

I can't see why the same shouldn't be possible again, this time not German states getting united, but Europe as a whole.
I see Hitler’s ideas are still alive and kicking.

Anyway, there need to be at least 4 common characteristics for a successful country: common historical traditions, cultural bond, common language, common religion. Such supercountries consisting of a multitude of nations, ethnicities, cultures, etc. MUST collapse. This was the case with Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Yugoslavia, USSR, etc. And now you see many independence movement throughout Europe. The Union as a supercountry is a very bad idea. If EU still goes this path of integration it will lead to its collapse and wars. And it won’t be the question of “if” but “when”.

The political structures of the EU are the greatest waste of money that has ever existed in the history of humanity.

[Citation needed] :P

You don’t need to search too much. Just count the wages of all this army of bureaucrats. There are 2 times more of them than the Polish army. In the europarliament alone there are almost 2 times more MEPs than in the U.S. congress. Polish MEPs earn more than $10k monthly + perks. And even higher number of assistants, who also get paid scandalous money. Just look at Van Rompuy: $540k monthly! And what are they doing there? Creating absurd legislations, like regulating the curvature of a banana or amount of water that can be flushed in a toilet! I won’t even start with all the money that went into fight against global warming and wasted, or wasted donations...

It's legally possible to withdraw now [...]
Huh? Formally there is, practically it’s almost impossible.

This is where it gets interesting. So you're saying that not being in the EU would be a problem, right? Otherwise it would just take the decision (of your national parliament, not the EU one) to terminate the EU treaties, which doesn't sound impossible at all. Except, of course, that you luckily don't have the majority to do that.
Oh, I answered earlier: “Also, I say it’s “practically impossible” because the EU (don’t really remember which of their institutions exactly but it doesn’t matter) needs to agree on that. So it’s not possible to declare independence unilaterally.” Life without the EU would be a breeze.

Unfortunately there’s so much EU propaganda going on. All the campaigns that are trying to tell us how good EU is feel like master telling his slaves that they won’t survive without him. :? Add to that money that EU gives us (yeah, “gives”, more like bribes... and who’s gonna pay for that..), and that politicians put an equality sign between Europe and EU (which is false). But we want free Europe, without the EU. :yep:

---
My reaction to some of the posts here, btw.
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby kevin » 2014-05-28, 7:37

xivrox wrote:I see Hitler’s ideas are still alive and kicking.

Aha, Godwin's law at work. This discussion is over for me. (But what an irony to hear such allegations from a nationalist...)

In the unlikely case that you didn't only mean to insult me but thought this was an honest response to what I wrote, check your historic facts before you post such bullshit.

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Saim » 2014-05-28, 7:38

xivrox wrote:Anyway, there need to be at least 4 common characteristics for a successful country: common historical traditions, cultural bond, common language, common religion.


Switzerland?
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2014-05-28, 9:28

kevin wrote:
xivrox wrote:I see Hitler’s ideas are still alive and kicking.

Aha, Godwin's law at work. This discussion is over for me.
:lol: That’s true, but this is a thread about the EU, so it’s not hard to compare it to Hitler or Stalin. I could use either of them as an example.

(But what an irony to hear such allegations from a nationalist...)

Hmm, I’ve never thought of myself as a nationalist (I’m a liberal conservative), but the definition of it (if there’s even one accepted definition) is very broad. So you could say that I’m a nationalist just because “I want to take the power home”.

In the unlikely case that you didn't only mean to insult me but thought this was an honest response to what I wrote, check your historic facts before you post such bullshit.

No, it wasn’t only to you, it’s an honest response to everyone who wants to create a European country. And I don’t know where was I wrong. Hitler was a socialist and as I said he wanted to turn Europe into “ein Volk, ein Reich”. And now EU: one artificial “European ethnicity/nationality/identity” that they’re trying to create, and one supercountry. Stalin pursued the same, one Soviet identity, one Union, so I could use him as an example, but Hitler seemed just more appropriate in the context. :roll:

Saim wrote:
xivrox wrote:Anyway, there need to be at least 4 common characteristics for a successful country: common historical traditions, cultural bond, common language, common religion.


Switzerland?

I knew it’d appear, and I cannot say for sure why it exists. :lol: There were discussions on that before here on Unilang. What I, IMO, see as factors though, are very high decentralization, liberties, different political system where people really feel they decide, and better economical situation. And the four are gradually decreasing in the EU.
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-28, 9:39

Saim wrote:
xivrox wrote:Anyway, there need to be at least 4 common characteristics for a successful country: common historical traditions, cultural bond, common language, common religion.


Switzerland?


Switzerland is a confederation, and the central gov has a very limited power. Moreover I would say that the secret of Switzerland is wealth; when you're as wealthy as Switzerland you can turn a blind eye on the other factors. Furthermore the Swiss Confederation is champion in direct democracy. The EU is not champion in any forms of democracy whatsoever.

And in any case I would say that Switzerland seems to be the exception which confirms the rule if we look at Europe.

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Saim » 2014-05-28, 11:56

Switzerland is a federation, not a confederation. Its official name contains "confederation" but in terms of its actual structure it's more federal in nature.

IpseDixit wrote:Furthermore the Swiss Confederation is champion in direct democracy. The EU is not champion in any forms of democracy whatsoever.


xivrox wrote:very high decentralization, liberties, different political system where people really feel they decide,


I would then suggest that in a more radically democratised EU (more democracy, more transparent) with smaller member states (if Switzerland was only made up of the three states of "Romandy", "Alemmanic Switzerland" and "Ticino" it would certainly not be workable - perhaps the EU could also benefit from having smaller states, making local democracy even more relevant) governing cultural diversity would not be a problem.
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-28, 12:59

I would then suggest that in a more radically democratised EU (more democracy, more transparent) with smaller member states (if Switzerland was only made up of the three states of "Romandy", "Alemmanic Switzerland" and "Ticino" it would certainly not be workable - perhaps the EU could also benefit from having smaller states, making local democracy even more relevant) governing cultural diversity would not be a problem.


And we would also need to maintain our monetary sovereignty, our economies are too different to be united under a single currency.

Anyway I think that for Europe to be a country, it must take radical changes. I agree that the only way to live united is having a very federal Europe of the peoples (with local currencies), and such union should have a popular consensus; but it's quite clear that the EU is aimining at quite a centralized model which is exactly the opposite of what you're suggesting. Moreover this unification process is pretty much manuveured by elitarian forces from above that don't care about peoples' will, which is, again, antythetic to a Europe of the peoples...

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby meidei » 2014-05-28, 14:09

We should federalise everything.
I really like the idea of canton-ising Cyprus for example, along district lines. It's better than a bi-ethnic federation (like say, Belgium).
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Saim » 2014-05-28, 16:37

I essentially agree with you, IpseDixit. I also think it would be very difficult to construct a (con)federation of European peoples that doesn't act primarily for the interests of the elite - but this is just symptomatic of the fact that the EU is made up of nation-states which themselves are beholdened to the same elite. In that sense, I would argue that democracy and social justice would not necessarily be well-protected outside of the Union, although I agree that we need a pretty strong break from the status quo.
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-05-28, 18:48

I noticed this on a humor site http://miljons.com/lv/18895/ "Vote for my mom and I'll change my name to Darth Vader", apparently it is for real, what a curious way to attract young voters, how empty can a campaign be?
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Babelfish » 2014-05-30, 18:34

xivrox wrote:Hitler was a socialist and as I said he wanted to turn Europe into “ein Volk, ein Reich”.
Hardly so. Hitler wanted to turn Germany into "ein Volk, ein Reich" and subdue the rest of Europe (and the world) to that Reich. He certainly didn't mean that the other "lowly races" could join in as equals to his Aryan nation - they were to be enslaved or exterminated. Your USSR example might have been better, they did in principle ignore nations and treat everyone equally [badly], although under a totalitarian dictatorship. I don't have much liking of the EU, but at least its principles aren't such evil. Please back down.
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-05-30, 19:05

Babelfish wrote:
xivrox wrote:Hitler was a socialist and as I said he wanted to turn Europe into “ein Volk, ein Reich”.
Hardly so. Hitler wanted to turn Germany into "ein Volk, ein Reich" and subdue the rest of Europe (and the world) to that Reich. He certainly didn't mean that the other "lowly races" could join in as equals to his Aryan nation - they were to be enslaved or exterminated. Your USSR example might have been better, they did in principle ignore nations and treat everyone equally [badly], although under a totalitarian dictatorship. I don't have much liking of the EU, but at least its principles aren't such evil. Please back down.

As if the ''lowly races'' are treated equally in the EU. They aren't being exterminated, I'd give you that, and aren't enslaved (maybe only debt bondage), but treated equally, no.

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby enricmm » 2014-06-02, 7:29

Yeah, it's the all-EU-members-are-equal-but-some-members-are-more-equal-than-others logic.
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-06-02, 8:22

Babelfish wrote:Your USSR example might have been better, they did in principle ignore nations and treat everyone equally [badly], although under a totalitarian dictatorship.

They treated everyone equally only on paper, in reality they too discriminated against people based on ethnicity

IMHO empires collapse if they get hard to manage and their people don't have anything in common, but that doesn't mean they have to be nation states (one could argue that trying to become one also contributed to Soviet downfall)
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby TeneReef » 2014-06-02, 15:48

enricmm wrote:Yeah, it's the all-EU-members-are-equal-but-some-members-are-more-equal-than-others logic.


You're right:

Image

source: http://www.kommers.se/Documents/dokumen ... n_webb.pdf

EU just created additional bureaucracy and hasn't simplified the red tape for interEU migration of people.
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