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Is austerity a crime against humanity? - Page 3 - UniLang

Is austerity a crime against humanity?

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IpseDixit
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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-04, 10:08

Sol Invictus wrote:Making them accountable and blaming them for crimes against humanity are two different things. People often suffer in economic crises, yet the government and other organizations are trying to do something about it, rather than fascilitate even worse situation developing (evem if they do more harm than good) - if you read up on cases considered crimes against humanity, you'll note that government wasn't trying to do anything about the issue or most likely intended it to happen and the victims could not protest or seek help in any way or they would be persecuted even further


You know, I think we can debate for years and getting nowehere.

You think that eurocrats and national politicians who are imposing austerity are actually helping the country.

I think they are doing nothing for their people but actually worsening the crisis.

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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-05-04, 13:09

Sol Invictus wrote:Eh, to recap - I do not like austerity either, but I see why it's done and it does not fit definition of crime against humanity. If somebody makes a miscalculation that makes economic situation worse they should be held accountable, but not for crime against humanity, unless it can be demonstrated that austerity was implemented with the intent of causing inhumane harm to people of the country.

I have a really hard time believing that so many world-class experts can make so many and so grave mistakes. I don't think anyone believes that the intent was to cause harm. I, for one, believe that the IMF and the rest of the Troika knew perfectly well the consequences of their actions and went through with it regardless, because they wanted more power, influence and money.

I mean, even if you're a common thief, your intent isn't to cause harm and suffering. You don't steal because you want to see people becoming poor and miserable. You steal because you want to gain more stuff.

Sol Invictus wrote:Crimes against humanity usually are war crimes or genocide, not oppresion of civil rights and poverty

Not sure. You've mentioned war crimes and genocide, but crimes against humanity are, according to the ICC, much more than that. Read here. Austerity can be argued to be a systematic attack directed against a civilian population with the result of causing great suffering or serious bodily and mental injury.

Though I'm sure we all agree that crimes against humanity has a vague definition and in my opinion, it is really up to us and our generation to decide if it encompasses harsh austerity measures as well.

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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-05-04, 14:49

IpseDixit wrote:You think that eurocrats and national politicians who are imposing austerity are actually helping the country.

No, I don't; I just don't think austerity is crime against humanity and you don't care because you'd prefer to rant about eurocrats and politicians :P

Ludwig Whitby wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:Eh, to recap - I do not like austerity either, but I see why it's done and it does not fit definition of crime against humanity. If somebody makes a miscalculation that makes economic situation worse they should be held accountable, but not for crime against humanity, unless it can be demonstrated that austerity was implemented with the intent of causing inhumane harm to people of the country.

I have a really hard time believing that so many world-class experts can make so many and so grave mistakes. I don't think anyone believes that the intent was to cause harm. I, for one, believe that the IMF and the rest of the Troika knew perfectly well the consequences of their actions and went through with it regardless, because they wanted more power, influence and money.

I mean, even if you're a common thief, your intent isn't to cause harm and suffering. You don't steal because you want to see people becoming poor and miserable. You steal because you want to gain more stuff.
If you are common thief your motive might be to gain stuff, yet you understand your actions can cause suffering to people you take it from. Many people who committed crimes against humanity probably thought they were building a better society, yet they did understand that they are also being inhumanely cruel to their victims, Any proof that IMF just wants money and the best way to get it is by lending somebody money and then making sure they cannot return the debt?
You've mentioned war crimes and genocide, but crimes against humanity are, according to the ICC, much more than that.

I said "usually"
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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-04, 15:22

Sol Invictus wrote:That looks like textbook example of logical fallacy. There needs to be deliberate decision to caeuse the consequences, not a decision to implement policy, unless you are arguing that austerity always causes humanitarian catadtrophe


This is preposterous.

If you implement a policy, you are aware to a great extent of what the conseuqences will be. No? If you cut off the cures for cancer from the NHS, you are aware that people will die because of that. Right? You may not know how many people will die, but you do know that someone will.

Sol Invictus wrote:I said "usually"


So what? Just because it's usually that, it doesn't mean that it cannot be something else.

Sol Invictus wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:You think that eurocrats and national politicians who are imposing austerity are actually helping the country.

No, I don't; I just don't think austerity is crime against humanity and you don't care because you'd prefer to rant about eurocrats and politicians :P


For me the kind of austerity that has been affecting many countries in Europe is a crime against humanity (at least in the case of Greece for sure) because they're simply pillaging several countries without caring about social consequences and they knew that the social consequences would be very dire. I'm not saying that austerity is always bad, if used in a cautious way (and usually it should be implemented in boom periods). Meidei and I gave you some good examples as to why these austerity measures can be considered a crime against humanity.

And I'm not ranting. But on the other hand I think you've viciously and repeatedly strawmanned me and I'm honestly losing any interest in debating with you.
Last edited by IpseDixit on 2014-05-04, 15:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-05-04, 15:52

Sol Invictus wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:Eh, to recap - I do not like austerity either, but I see why it's done and it does not fit definition of crime against humanity. If somebody makes a miscalculation that makes economic situation worse they should be held accountable, but not for crime against humanity, unless it can be demonstrated that austerity was implemented with the intent of causing inhumane harm to people of the country.

I have a really hard time believing that so many world-class experts can make so many and so grave mistakes. I don't think anyone believes that the intent was to cause harm. I, for one, believe that the IMF and the rest of the Troika knew perfectly well the consequences of their actions and went through with it regardless, because they wanted more power, influence and money.

I mean, even if you're a common thief, your intent isn't to cause harm and suffering. You don't steal because you want to see people becoming poor and miserable. You steal because you want to gain more stuff.
If you are common thief your motive might be to gain stuff, yet you understand your actions can cause suffering to people you take it from. Many people who committed crimes against humanity probably thought they were building a better society, yet they did understand that they are also being inhumanely cruel to their victims, Any proof that IMF just wants money and the best way to get it is by lending somebody money and then making sure they cannot return the debt?

How can you believe that the IMF and the rest of the gang didn't understand that their actions can cause suffering to the people? How can you believe that they really are just making honest mistakes?They are the best economists in the world. They must know better than that.

First and foremost, they get power. When someone is in your debt, you can make them do whatever you want. Money is secondary, but almost always comes with power.

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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-05-04, 21:16

Ludwig Whitby wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:Eh, to recap - I do not like austerity either, but I see why it's done and it does not fit definition of crime against humanity. If somebody makes a miscalculation that makes economic situation worse they should be held accountable, but not for crime against humanity, unless it can be demonstrated that austerity was implemented with the intent of causing inhumane harm to people of the country.

I have a really hard time believing that so many world-class experts can make so many and so grave mistakes. I don't think anyone believes that the intent was to cause harm. I, for one, believe that the IMF and the rest of the Troika knew perfectly well the consequences of their actions and went through with it regardless, because they wanted more power, influence and money.

I mean, even if you're a common thief, your intent isn't to cause harm and suffering. You don't steal because you want to see people becoming poor and miserable. You steal bedcause you want to gain more stuff.
If you are common thief your motive might be to gain stuff, yet you understand your actions can cause suffering to people you take it from. Many people who committed crimes against humanity probably thought they were building a better society, yet they did understand that they are also being inhumanely cruel to their victims, Any proof that IMF just wants money and the best way to get it is by lending somebody money and then making sure they cannot return the debt?

How can you believe that the IMF and the rest of the gang didn't understand that their actions can cause suffering to the people? How can you believe that they really are just making honest mistakes?They are the best economists in the world. They must know better than that.

First and foremost, they get power. When someone is in your debt, you can make them do whatever you want. Money is secondary, but almost always comes with power.

It is a bad situation that causes suffering anyway. I think their idea is to take harsh measures to salvage what they can and they do not start out knowing full well that it will make situation even worse
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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-05-05, 0:15

meidei wrote:Somewhere between infant mortality rising by 43%, suicide rates increased by 45%, HIV infections rising by 200%, abolishment of cancer treatment 'unless in final stages, when it's ER material', previously eradicated diseases like malaria returning, complete slashing of mental health departments due to across-the-board budget cuts and so on, just in Greece, I think there's a reason to compare it to Holodomor.

You may compare it to the Holodomor when millions of EU citizens die from it.


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