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Bombs in Gaza, riots in France - Page 4 - UniLang

Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-07-30, 15:04

meidei wrote:I did appreciate the honestly. I'd be pissed off if we went there and they told us we could actually survive and defeat the opposing army because every single Cypriot knows that's not true.
Nope, you go there, they tell you "we send you to delay the invasion and we just hope some foreign power intervenes before it's too late because there's nothing else we can do". [Back in 1974, the power that was supposed to intervene, didn't]
So the question there is, why keep an army you admit is useless? The answer is a number, and it's followed by the symbol .


Let's not derail this thread though :)

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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-30, 16:22

To nudge us back on topic:

I just posted this picture to my Facebook feed.

Image

It shows a building on the North Side of Chicago known as the "Broadway Armory". The reason it's called that is that, when World War I broke out, it was acquired by the Illinois National Guard (the state militia) for use as one. They continued to drill and train there (presumably with weapons stored on site) at least up through WWII and for some time after that. Only in 1998 did the National Guard declare that it had no further military purpose and sell it to the City of Chicago for use as a community recreational centre. It's located on the same block as an elementary school (and always has been--the school was built in 1914). Not only that, it was already being used as a community recreation centre while the National Guard was training there. People from the neighbourhood used to come there to skate.

I posted it because I'm so sick to death of hearing people condemn Hamas for locating legitimate military targets in densely-populated urban areas as if this were something that no civilised fighting force would ever do. But that's what happens when your historical memory doesn't even reach back as far as you own birthdate.
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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby meidei » 2014-07-30, 16:29

So that's a thing people are surprised about now?

Military camps in Cyprus are always close to highschools, and there was even one next to a primary school, but it has been since closed down.

The military unit I served in was just 2 minutes walk away from the highschool I went to.
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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-30, 16:58

meidei wrote:So that's a thing people are surprised about now?

Apparently, from the breathless condemnations I'm seeing of Hamas for doing the functional equivalent.

As expected, most of the respondents are completing missing the point of the analogy, pointing out that it's not a high priority target or not a target of any sort now. Yeah, well, we're not (officially) at war now, are we?

The other way people are missing the point is by pointing out that we're deep in the Midwest, someplace where enemy attacks are simply unthinkable. But where is the San Francisco Armory? Right in the heart of the Mission District. Manhattan has an armory situation on Park Avenue, of all places.

ETA: Now I'm getting some better responses, including this link to an article arguing that Hamas is operating a command centre under Shifa Hospital and journalists are being intimidated into not reporting about it: http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180730/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed.
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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby meidei » 2014-07-31, 17:33

So, listening to radio news a bit.
Apparently more than 1400 Gazans have been killed by now, in 25 days of conflict, 3/4 of them civilians, 250 of those were children. Some 220 000 Gazans were displaced, with UN refugee camps reporting that they already have run out of space.
Netanyahu stated "We are determined to continue to complete this mission [destroy Hamas tunnels] with or without a cease-fire".

The US 'refreshed' IDF's supplies at the same time they released a somehow strongly-worded condemnation of IDF's bombing of a UN school.

There's a morbid joke somewhere in there, I'm just feeling too sick in my stomach to find it.
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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-31, 17:45

meidei wrote:Some 220 000 Gazans were displaced, with UN refugee camps reporting that they already have run out of space.

That's just the number which have sought shelter at public facilities. The UN's Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs estimates another 200,000 have sought refuge in private homes. That's out of a total population of 1.4 million.
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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby meidei » 2014-07-31, 18:12

Good lord, that's nearly a quarter :|
Gaza has the size of Malta or Andorra, all its borders are blocked, and IDF showed no restrain in bombing international aid mission buildings, so where the fuck can you go to feel safe anyway? You can't even escape on a fishing boat like Syrians and Libyans do, because the sea is blocked as well.

That's actually getting to upsetting for me. And I'm just simulating the feeling in my brain, without the real threat of being blown away by a rocket in the middle of the day when I'm buying vegetables.
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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-31, 18:32

Gaza has two-thirds the population of the City of Chicago but only 61% of the land area. I simply can't conceive what it would be like to have to relocate a quarter of the population within those boundaries--especially if 40% of the land were currently off limits due to ongoing military operations.
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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby meidei » 2014-08-01, 4:50

A 72hr ceasefire was agreed apparently, but it remains to be seen if IDF will respect it, considering past violations and Netanyahu's own statement.


And in a different part of the world, another idiot assumes that all Jews represent the State of Israel and that they should be collectively punished for Israel's actions. Apparently the Flemish source is controversial but let's just go with it.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jew ... /1.608220#
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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby Babelfish » 2014-08-01, 12:48

meidei wrote:A 72hr ceasefire was agreed apparently, but it remains to be seen if IDF will respect it, considering past violations and Netanyahu's own statement.

IDF?
So far it's been Hamas which either rejected ceasefire suggestions wholesale (while wailing they they are being "slaughtered") or broke them shortly by launching rockets into Israel again.
And this morning, the ceasefire entered into effect at 8 am, at 9:30 am Hamas combatants emerging from a tunnel attacked Israeli soldiers in southern Rafah, killing two and apparently kidnapping one. All this under cover of massive rocket and mortar fire into Israel.
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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby Babelfish » 2014-08-01, 13:49

meidei wrote:Apparently more than 1400 Gazans have been killed by now, in 25 days of conflict, 3/4 of them civilians, 250 of those were children. Some 220 000 Gazans were displaced, with UN refugee camps reporting that they already have run out of space.
Netanyahu stated "We are determined to continue to complete this mission [destroy Hamas tunnels] with or without a cease-fire".
Where's this data from? Information given by Hamas is hardly to be trusted, you can see an analysis here:
How Hamas Wields Gaza’s Casualties as Propaganda
What they say about the current conflict is mainly statistical, but it is mentioned that the same happened in operation Cast Lead in 2009: Hamas first admitted only about 200 of its men killed, much later it gave a figure of about 700, which was quite close to IDF estimations...

Regarding Netanyahu's statement, one of Israel's main demands for a ceasefire now was that Israeli soldiers continue destroying the tunnels (which, to clarify, is done from the ground, not by airstrikes).

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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby Babelfish » 2014-08-01, 13:57

meidei wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:I have to say that I'm quite surprised at the number of Israeli casualties though. Yes, they're a much smaller number than that of the Palestinians and most of them are not civilians, but how the fuck did the 4th most powerful army in the world manage to lose almost 50 soldiers against an armyless nation that the "best" it can do is probably guerilla warfare.

I haven't read much on that, but I have that horrible feeling that 50 soldiers are fresh conscripts, which are probably an easy target for guerilla fighters and less of a loss for the army.

When I was conscripted, one of the first things they told us is that if war breaks out when we are still in training, we are the ones who are sent first and it doesn't matter that our training isn't yet complete, they just want us to buy them some time.

I don't think that's the situation here. The soldiers sent into Gaza are mostly regular infantry brigades and special forces, their training lasts at least six months. Some casualties were around the Gaza strip due to mortar fire...
Also, Hamas has used the recent years to create a complex system of tunnels within the Gaza Strip and also into Israel, as well as booby-trap many buildings. I heard now of an UNRWA building which was booby-trapped, but there were talks that Hamas just put an UNRWA sign there.

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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby meidei » 2014-08-01, 20:10

So far it's been Hamas which either rejected ceasefire suggestions wholesale (while wailing they they are being "slaughtered") or broke them shortly by launching rockets into Israel again.

IDF violated their own unilateral 3hr ceasefire two days ago, and between you and me, I think it's the ball is really on Israel's court, because it's not 40% of Tel Aviv that was bombed* this month leaving so many homeless, it's the completely blockaded Gaza Strip that was half-obliterated. Hamas after all is a terrorist organisation that gained power because people were driven to despair. I don't think how will Hamas go away when the conditions that created fertile ground for them are still there (that unity government thing that was announced before the bombing began that month seemed like a step to a new direction btw)

* And just to be clear before Lietmotiv again suggests that "maybe some of you want to see Israeli cities bombed", I'm glad Tel Aviv and all the other cities aren't under heavy fire and that people are as safe as they can be.

Where's this data from?


I was listening to BBC World Service, and I do believe they get their numbers from the UN.
The distinction between civilians and combatants isn't that meaningful when you have no organised army.
I don't think that's the situation here. The soldiers sent into Gaza are mostly regular infantry brigades and special forces, their training lasts at least six months.

They are probably still young conscripts though. Not that it matters. Even if Israel had a volunteer/professional army, it wouldn't be a free choice, because that kind of army is just a substitute for social welfare (see US and how most people join the Army to escape poverty).
I sencirely feel great sympathy for everyone forced to fight wars, whether a conscript or one who was left with no other options but to enlist; and great respect for those who deny to be conscripted and aren't afraid of going to jail over that.
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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby TeneReef » 2014-09-24, 17:32

French tourist beheaded in Algeria:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/s ... ed-jihadis

:evil:
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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby linguoboy » 2014-09-24, 17:44

TeneReef wrote:French tourist beheaded in Algeria:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/s ... ed-jihadis

Which has what to do with the conflict in Gaza, exactly?
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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby TeneReef » 2014-09-24, 23:57

Arabs and French were involved.
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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby Halfdan » 2014-09-25, 2:28

ISIS... Gaza. Must be related now.

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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby linguoboy » 2014-09-25, 2:57

TeneReef wrote:Arabs and French were involved.

They were also involved in the UEFA Super Cup, but you didn't post about that here.
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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby meidei » 2014-09-25, 4:58

I'll be that guy. "Because both involve Muslims" :ohwell:
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Re: Bombs in Gaza, riots in France

Postby TeneReef » 2014-09-25, 15:06

Arabs to be more precise.
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