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Islamic Terrorism - Page 8 - UniLang

Islamic Terrorism

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Ludwig Whitby
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-01-11, 9:02

Nevermind. I wrote something, but than I changed my mind.
Last edited by Ludwig Whitby on 2015-01-11, 10:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby lazyaficionado » 2015-01-11, 9:17

linguoboy wrote:The raw number doesn't matter. The proportion who want to impose Shariah doesn't matter. It's the proportion who actually commit crimes who matter. I'm all for solutions which target criminals, but whatever they are, they should be applied equally across the board.
Defoe. But history teaches that whenever there are radical ideas there will be actions further in time. See: racial theory began to arise in the 19th century, while Hitler came to power in 1930's; same goes with the dictatorship of the proletariat -- the idea born in 19th century, it was brought to life in 1917's; etc. With the time generally going faster now, it may even not require a generation nowadays. So I do think the number of those who want Europe to become a khalifate matters. Especially whether it's growing or decreasing, in proportion to other European Muslims and the whole generation.

linguoboy wrote:So I'm not just concerned with threats from Islamic radicals with military training. I'm concerned with threats from anybody with military training. Given where I work, I am demonstrably more likely to be killed by a White man with a grudge against his ex than by a Middle Eastern man with a grudge against "the West".
I understand. Well then, the US don't face this problem. And that's fine. But Europe in the wide sense of the word does face it. Living in a country that actually fought nationalistic Sharia state on its soil, and that is constantly attacked by Islamists, I am concerned with it. That's my perspective.

linguoboy wrote:I don't understand how you can say that "Western way of life" is "not violent" when the "Western way of life" is built on violence.

It's built on the presumption that only the state can commit violence. Also it's built on the secular values, like the supremacy of the law, separation of the religion and of the state, the ideas of changeable government, human rights and so on.

linguoboy wrote:How do you think laws are enforced if not ultimately by violent means? Where do you think they spring from if not an ideology? What determines domestic policing policies if not ideology?

See above.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-01-11, 14:58

Yserenhart, I think I've got it now!

The understanding you have for radical islamists stems from the discourse of conflict that you share with them. For them the West is crusading against Islam in Israel/Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and so on and has for a long time been at war with Islam. For you society is in constant conflict between the privileged opressors and the unprivileged opressed or in this case Western secularists and Christans on one hand and Muslims on the other.

I think that is a dangerous way of looking at it (although getting to know the power-dynamics in society isn't a bad thing). There is no war and the focus needs to be put on a tolerant and peaceful (and true?) interpretation of Islam, as I've heard both the Serbian mufti Jusufspahić and Tariq Ramadan say and that is something that the Muslims need to work on. Ramadan went further and pointed to the Siné affair, which I've mentioned in another thread and where I once again agree with him. There are double standards in Europe and it should be perfectly fine to print comics that are offensive to Jews as well as comics that are offensive to Muslims. And that is something that Europeans need to work on.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby linguoboy » 2015-01-11, 20:41

lazyaficionado wrote:But history teaches that whenever there are radical ideas there will be actions further in time. See: racial theory began to arise in the 19th century, while Hitler came to power in 1930's; same goes with the dictatorship of the proletariat -- the idea born in 19th century, it was brought to life in 1917's; etc.
Conversely, the USA was a hotbed of socialism in the teens and 20s. When exactly did that bear fruit? Is their an anarcho-syndicalist coup in the works right now I should be worried about?

lazyaficionado wrote:With the time generally going faster now
[Citation needed.]

lazyaficionado wrote:So I do think the number of those who want Europe to become a khalifate matters. Especially whether it's growing or decreasing, in proportion to other European Muslims and the whole generation.
I think that's an important benchmark for the success of integration and suchlike, but again I'm wary of focusing too much on attitudes rather than actions, because that's the road to thoughtcrime. There's nothing wrong with thinking that the present government of your country could be replaced with something better. There's nothing wrong with advocating for such a change. The problem only comes when you attempt to bring this about by extralegal and antidemocratic means.

lazyaficionado wrote:I understand. Well then, the US don't face this problem. And that's fine. But Europe in the wide sense of the word does face it. Living in a country that actually fought nationalistic Sharia state on its soil, and that is constantly attacked by Islamists, I am concerned with it. That's my perspective.
Fair enough. In that case, I'd point you to the fact that Europe is not exactly a newbie when it comes to battling domestic terrorism. Every major country has had to deal with some sort of violent armed insurgency over the past half century. So what I'm objecting to is the notion that Islamic-inspired terrorism is something new and qualitatively different than other forms of domestic terror and, therefore, can only be combatted by new and more ruthless measures.

I recently read a handwringing article about the new security measures at the Jewish Museum of Belgium in Brussels. I recognise those measures; I had to submit to them when I visited the British Museum in London in 1991. It wasn't al-Qaeda they were meant to ward off, it was the Provisional IRA. Incidentally, 1991 was also the year in which the Maguire Seven were finally exonerated and the surviving members were released after fifteen years in prison. You should read up about them and the Birmingham Six because it's a sobering lesson in what happens when a government decides that a certain type of crime can only be fought by extrajudicial means and in doing so targets a particular (disadvantaged) ethnic group. This is what I do not want to see a return to in Europe.

lazyaficionado wrote:
linguoboy wrote:I don't understand how you can say that "Western way of life" is "not violent" when the "Western way of life" is built on violence.

It's built on the presumption that only the state can commit violence. Also it's built on the secular values, like the supremacy of the law, separation of the religion and of the state, the ideas of changeable government, human rights and so on.
For these secular values to make sense to the average person, the state needs to be a functioning republic with a government recognised as by the majority of them as legitimate and trusted to mete out justice in an impartial and measured fashion. This is not the usual experience of those who have lived in African or Middle-Eastern countries and, to a lesser extent, not the experience of those of African or Middle-Eastern descent who live in Europe, where they come up against the kinds of double standards Ludwig talks about on a daily basis.

So that's why the opposition of "Westernised" to "Islamic" is fundamentally a false one. It's not Islam per se that leads to Islamism. It's poor government that spawns radical ideologies and, given the history of the region, the radicals which spring up in the Islamic World tend to draw their inspiration from Islam rather than, say, Marxist-Leninism or libertarianism. And this is what makes so much of the response seem completely wrongheaded to me. Instead of working to overcome these double standards, it seeks to use them to further violate the civil rights of the very population who it needs to trust in the ability of the state to protect its civil rights.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Saim » 2015-01-11, 20:48

linguoboy wrote:It's poor government that spawns radical ideologies and, given the history of the region, the radicals which spring up in the Islamic World tend to draw their inspiration from Islam rather than, say, Marxist-Leninism or libertarianism.


Indeed, much of the spread of Islamism in the Arab world seems to be due to its role in the opposition to corrupt and oppressive Arab-socialist governments. In Pakistan there's a similar situation where the idea of "democracy" has lost prestige because people associate it with the banana republic Pakistan has become and the Islamists and militarists give some image of order.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Levike » 2015-01-12, 11:04

So the Hungarian prime-minister Viktor Orbán just made a declaration:

"We don't want to see amongst us big minorities with other different cultural characteristics than ours, we want Hungary to remain Hungary."

In a way I agree with him, but he shouldn't worry since the country isn't such a big destination.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby meidei » 2015-01-12, 11:07

There was a BBC Radio series a few months ago, "The Fall of Arab {Liberalism, Socialism, Islamism}. I'll see if I can find them again.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby linguoboy » 2015-01-12, 16:22

Hasbi Allah, now I'm debating a friend of a friend on Facebook who says the massacre was a consequence of the strict gun control laws in France and that Sandy Hook could've been prevented had "just one" of the administrators been armed. (He also seems to think the French police are unarmed despite the fact that both Brinsolaro and Merabet had weapons. The latter actually had a chance to draw his, and he's just as dead.)
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Itikar » 2015-01-12, 16:48

Does your friend understand how guns work?

When a man with a .45 meets a man with a rifle, the man with a pistol will be a dead man. That's an old Mexican Proverb...and it's true.

If one of the administrators had been armed it would have made virtually no difference against three trained terrorists armed with Kalashnikovs. These things don't exactly work like in the films.

What could have made a difference was French cops and security not being a joke.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby linguoboy » 2015-01-12, 17:02

Itikar wrote:What could have made a difference was French cops and security not being a joke.
Although I have my own questions about French security, it takes much more than one laughable incident to demonstrate that it's "a joke". The hard truth is that it's very hard to stop well-planned and -executed attacks against "soft" targets like magazine offices or elementary schools. That's why in highly asymmetrical conflicts militants target them rather than, say, police stations or army bases.

ETA: Opinion piece from a member of Britain's RUSI (a defence and security think tank) http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30760656.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Varislintu » 2015-01-12, 20:47

Random thoughts follow.

Ludwig Whitby wrote:European radical atheists are doing much harm


Maybe, yeah. I've found some of the talk on some American atheist blogs quite repelling.

For example, Jerry Coyne on Why Evolution is True said:

I have a feeling—and I may be wrong—that this time the extremists crossed a line, one that will mark a turning point in how liberals regard terrorism. I suspect that it will be increasingly hard for those liberals and for Islamophiles to justify such acts as the result of colonialism, the disaffection of the disempowered, or as anything other than the expression of pure, misguided religiosity.


Again, what does he actually mean when he says "justify such acts"? It feels like it's a relative to the accusation of "tolerating islamistic terrorists". It seems to refer to a lack of some undefined, drastic action and/or revenge that the speaker thinks should be taking place. Something beyond 'fairness' or 'equal treatment', that seems sure.

I understand what hyperbole is, but still, in this thread it was said at least three times that what is done now about terrorism is "nothing". If all the current attitudes and measures against terrorism is tantamount to "nothing" in some people's minds, then my gut reaction is to really fear what on earth is meant by the "something" that those people want.

Therefore I'm pretty much on the same lines as linguoboy, who as usually is better at expressing himself, when he summarised:

because it's a sobering lesson in what happens when a government decides that a certain type of crime can only be fought by extrajudicial means and in doing so targets a particular (disadvantaged) ethnic group. This is what I do not want to see a return to in Europe.


On an unrelated note, I found it interesting that school shootings came up in this topic. It made me think of how school shootings are popularly considered to be a kind of violent cultural meme: people choose to take out their anger/cruelty/depression/hopelessness on other people through school shootings only once they have heard about such things -- currently school shootings happen all over the West regularly. Having heard about school shootings elsewhere, it becomes a real option to troubled people, perhaps even a way to etch oneself into the community's memory. It had never occurred to me before how terrorist acts are similar, actually. :hmm: They have also become a meme, a model of violence that now lay in the repertoir of reasonably ordinary people. Other people have done it, and so it seems less completely crazy and fucked up and more like a special society to belong to. That's how humans work: something that is absolutely nuts for a lone person to do, becomes a ticket to belonging and admiration if enough people have done it before (human sacrifice, widow burning, witch burning, genital mutilation, self-mummification, what name you).

But terrorism is, of course, used for political purposes in a way that school shootings aren't.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Lietmotiv » 2015-01-13, 8:46

Levike wrote:In a way I agree with him, but he shouldn't worry since the country isn't such a big destination.



Are you sure?
You might want to take a look at this.

https://mediendienst-integration.de/fil ... itants.png

In 2014 the number of asylum seekers/thousands inhabitants was bigger in Hungary than in Germany. And believe me, in Germany, they are quite many.

European radical atheists are doing much harm

Actually many left/far-left Europeans hate Christianity and criticize it all the time, whereas they support Islam and even Islamists. It's kinda strange for an atheist.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Saim » 2015-01-13, 9:02

Lietmotiv wrote:In 2014 the number of asylum seekers/thousands inhabitants was bigger in Hungary than in Germany. And believe me, in Germany, they are quite many.


He was talking about immigrants in general, not asylum seekers.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-01-13, 13:21

Lietmotiv wrote:
European radical atheists are doing much harm

Actually many left/far-left Europeans hate Christianity and criticize it all the time, whereas they support Islam and even Islamists. It's kinda strange for an atheist.

I didn't really have them in mind. I was thinking more of the late Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins and their followers.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby linguoboy » 2015-01-13, 16:14

Lietmotiv wrote:In 2014 the number of asylum seekers/thousands inhabitants was bigger in Hungary than in Germany. And believe me, in Germany, they are quite many.
My impression is that for most of these asylum seekers and immigrants Hungary is simply a foyer for gaining access to the EU. (Of course, that still doesn't mean that all those who intend to decamp to other countries like Germany or the UK ultimately will.)
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Massimiliano B » 2015-01-16, 10:05

Yserenhart wrote:
Yasna wrote:That's the best you can come up with? Compare it with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamic_terrorist_attacks

I rest my case.

I tallied up those deaths: 8293 people killed since 1980. Given that the list also includes things like the Beslan school incident, and the hostages in Sydney last year, I think the number actually being killed in the name of Mohammed is lower.

I also went ahead and counted up the number of civilian deaths attributable directly to the coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan: I got from the lowest numbers 18420, and from the highest 23312. If we go ahead and assume about half are from air-strikes, and half from ground forces; then assume that half of the US ground forces have weapons with those scopes, then between 4605 and 5828 people have been killed in the name of Jesus since 2003; which may well be an underrepresentation, given it doesn't consider other potential ways people were killed in the name of Jesus. That's 55,53% to 70,28% of the deaths in the name of Mohammed, in less than half (34,29%) the time.

So yes, there seems to be tolerance for violence perpetrated in the name of Christianity. Just because more people have died in the name of Mohammed doesn't mean deaths in the name of Jesus cease to exist (...).



There are about 100 000 000 victims of Communism (which is atheism).

So, atheism is a lethal weapon, while religions are pro-life.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Varislintu » 2015-01-16, 13:17

Massimiliano B wrote:
Yserenhart wrote:
Yasna wrote:That's the best you can come up with? Compare it with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamic_terrorist_attacks

I rest my case.

I tallied up those deaths: 8293 people killed since 1980. Given that the list also includes things like the Beslan school incident, and the hostages in Sydney last year, I think the number actually being killed in the name of Mohammed is lower.

I also went ahead and counted up the number of civilian deaths attributable directly to the coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan: I got from the lowest numbers 18420, and from the highest 23312. If we go ahead and assume about half are from air-strikes, and half from ground forces; then assume that half of the US ground forces have weapons with those scopes, then between 4605 and 5828 people have been killed in the name of Jesus since 2003; which may well be an underrepresentation, given it doesn't consider other potential ways people were killed in the name of Jesus. That's 55,53% to 70,28% of the deaths in the name of Mohammed, in less than half (34,29%) the time.

So yes, there seems to be tolerance for violence perpetrated in the name of Christianity. Just because more people have died in the name of Mohammed doesn't mean deaths in the name of Jesus cease to exist (...).



There are about 100 000 000 victims of Comminism (which is atheism).

So, atheism is a lethal weapon, while religions are pro-life.


:ohwell:

Well, I guess it's a positive thing that when faced with the fact that violence in the name of Christianity exists, some Christians need to find someone else to look worse so that they can again label themselves as spotless. That means that at least it registers in them that it's bad to be associated with violence.

Edit: However, I think the more constructive and less childish-looking way to face that would be to accept that one's own camp can have rotten apples, that one's own ideology can be bent to evil ends, and just accept that it's not an ideology that automatically fixes everyone.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Yserenhart » 2015-01-16, 14:03

Massimiliano B wrote:There are about 100 000 000 victims of Comminism (which is atheism).

So, atheism is a lethal weapon, while religions are pro-life.

You are of course conveniently ignoring the fact that those killed by communist regimes were killed for political reasons, as a result of political ideology. The fact that those regimes also encouraged atheism is irrelevant. Besides, as far as I can remember, it would be perfectly possible to have an interpretation of Marxism or Leninism that could allow for religion.

Also, if you'll look back at that post, you'll see an image is included. As no figures are actually portrayed, the people speaking could potentially be Marx and Lenin. That's the thing with ideology, it can (and will) be corrupted, no matter what it is. Just because some other ideology has been corrupted doesn't mean you get to pretend your favoured ideologies can not be, and have not been, corrupted.

I can also point out that some interpretations of Christianity prohibit medical procedures that save lives (Jehova's Witnesses for example), and the Catholic Church is very vocal about its opposition to condoms, even though preventing the spread of HIV in places like Africa could well help keep more people alive. Most interpretations of Abrahamic religions also prohibit abortion, even when the lack thereof is likely to leave both the mother and the child dead. Therefore religions are a lethal weapon, and atheism is pro-life.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Massimiliano B » 2015-01-16, 18:09

Varislintu wrote:
Massimiliano B wrote:
Yserenhart wrote:
Yasna wrote:That's the best you can come up with? Compare it with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamic_terrorist_attacks

I rest my case.

I tallied up those deaths: 8293 people killed since 1980. Given that the list also includes things like the Beslan school incident, and the hostages in Sydney last year, I think the number actually being killed in the name of Mohammed is lower.

I also went ahead and counted up the number of civilian deaths attributable directly to the coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan: I got from the lowest numbers 18420, and from the highest 23312. If we go ahead and assume about half are from air-strikes, and half from ground forces; then assume that half of the US ground forces have weapons with those scopes, then between 4605 and 5828 people have been killed in the name of Jesus since 2003; which may well be an underrepresentation, given it doesn't consider other potential ways people were killed in the name of Jesus. That's 55,53% to 70,28% of the deaths in the name of Mohammed, in less than half (34,29%) the time.

So yes, there seems to be tolerance for violence perpetrated in the name of Christianity. Just because more people have died in the name of Mohammed doesn't mean deaths in the name of Jesus cease to exist (...).



There are about 100 000 000 victims of Comminism (which is atheism).

So, atheism is a lethal weapon, while religions are pro-life.


:ohwell:

Well, I guess it's a positive thing that when faced with the fact that violence in the name of Christianity exists, some Christians need to find someone else to look worse so that they can again label themselves as spotless. That means that at least it registers in them that it's bad to be associated with violence.

Edit: However, I think the more constructive and less childish-looking way to face that would be to accept that one's own camp can have rotten apples, that one's own ideology can be bent to evil ends, and just accept that it's not an ideology that automatically fixes everyone.


Those 23312 deaths have nothing to do with religion. On the other hand, 100 000 000 people died because of communism (that is, atheism).

The fact is that religion has nothing to do with violence. On the contrary, politics has a lot to do with violence. And communism is a political ideology. Religions are not ideologies.
Last edited by Massimiliano B on 2015-01-16, 18:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby linguoboy » 2015-01-16, 18:11

Massimiliano B wrote:The fact is that religion has nothing to do with violence. On the contrary, politics has a lot to do with violence. And communism is a political ideology. Religions are not ideologies.
What possible definition can you be using for "ideology" which includes political movements while excluding all religious ones?

A religion is not reducible to an ideology, but then neither is any political movement either. All organised religious practice is guided by an ideology (or "comprehensive normative vision", to use one common definition), without which in can hardly be called "organised", and this guides most personal religious practice as well.
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