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Odd declensions in modern Greek - Page 2 - UniLang

Odd declensions in modern Greek

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Postby Psi-Lord » 2007-04-18, 4:17

I wasn’t sure on where to mention this link, but since this thread is about declensions, I guess it fits here (mods be free to move this post somewhere else if it doesn’t): http://www.neurolingo.gr/online_tools/lexiscope.htm. I don’t know how complete and normative it is, but it features the functionality of Neurolingo's Hyphenator, Speller, Lemmatizer, Morphological Lexicon and Thesaurus.
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Postby Babelfish » 2007-04-18, 12:46

'Εξοχα! Τελικά ένα μορφολογικός αναλυτής για την ελληνική γλώσσα! :partyhat: Όντως σχεδόν δεν είχα προβλήματα με τα ουσιαστικά, μπορώ να γράφω μόνο τα πρώτα γράμματα της λέξεως στο λεξικό και μου δίνει όλες της λέξεις που αρχίζουν με αυτά τα γράμματα. Αλλά όταν αντιμετωπίζω άγνωστα ρήματα στο συντελεσμένο... :(

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Postby Psi-Lord » 2007-04-18, 21:41

Just to bring back the thread more on topic, a few notes for discussion, if I may. :) They lack a better organisation, though. :oops:

ego wrote:Το όρος – the mountain

Except for the gen. pl., one can just say όρος regularly follows the declension of most neuter nouns in -ος such as βάρος, δάσος, έθνος, and κράτος, right?

ego wrote:Η ισχύς – the strength

The Τριανταφυλλίδης On-Line seems to give plural forms as valid (nom. voc. acc. ισχύες, gen. ισχύων).

ego wrote:Ο μυς – the muscle

Talk about sources disagreeing… :roll: The Τριανταφυλλίδης On-Line makes no notes about nom. voc. sing.; Lexiscope gives both μυ and μυός for gen. sing. (the latter apparently being learned), and μύες for acc. pl.; and the Routledge comprehensive grammar book gives nom. acc. pl. as both μυς and μύες, but no voc. sing. or pl.

ego wrote:Ο πρύτανης – the rector

The Routledge grammar gives πρέσβης as following the same model as well.

ego wrote:According to Manolis Triandafyllidis' grammar, [πολύς] has no genitive singular and the one I gave is "ancient". Οthers claim it is modern as well. I cannot think of a sentence where it would be useful anyway.

The Routledge grammar only mentions the gen. sing. exists (πολλού), but is very rare and exclusive to formal registers. Lexiscope is more ‘extreme’, though, and gives this same gen. form as πολύ. :P

ego wrote:I am not very sure about genitive plural [of γόης] :oops:

Lexiscope gives γόητων, with no stress shift, and it also gives the forms Dimakos listed (with -δ- instead of -τ-).

ego wrote:One would expect a vocative in -ε but it's in -o [for γέρος]

The Routledge grammar also adds three other categories:

a. given names and surnames stressed on the penultimate (Νίκος, Μάρκος, Χρήστος, Μαρινάτος, Πέτρος, etc.);
b. diminutives in -άκος;
c. certain other dissylabic nouns, such as διάκος and δράκος.

Lexiscope disagrees about διάκος, and both Lexiscope and the Τριανταφυλλίδης On-Line disagree on δράκος, though.

outis wrote:
ego wrote:Feminine words ending in -η derive from two different groups:

1. Those ending in -η in ancient Greek too (like κόρη)
2. Those that ended in -ις in ancient Greek (like πόλη).

There's no way to guess which group every word belongs to.

I think, with the exception of πόλη and δύναμη, all the other words in the second group end either in -ση (e.g. λύση=solution), -ξη (e.g. πράξη=act) , or -ψη (e.g. λήψη=receiving).

The Routledge grammar gives one more exception, πίστη; it also gives this same rule of thumb about the endings -ση, -ξη, and -ψη, but adds that some nouns that once belonged to this second group have shifted to the first group in the modern language (though lacking a genitive plural): βράση, δέση, κόψη, άνοιξη, etc. Lexiscope and the Τριανταφυλλίδης On-Line both disagree, though, and give even these nouns as belonging to the second group.
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Postby outis » 2007-04-19, 22:17

Psi-Lord wrote:The Routledge grammar gives one more exception, πίστη;


Yes, but I think this word is never used in plural.

Psi-Lord wrote:it also gives this same rule of thumb about the endings -ση, -ξη, and -ψη, but adds that some nouns that once belonged to this second group have shifted to the first group in the modern language (though lacking a genitive plural): βράση, δέση, κόψη, άνοιξη, etc. Lexiscope and the Τριανταφυλλίδης On-Line both disagree, though, and give even these nouns as belonging to the second group.


One such word I can think of is "βρύση" (tap, faucet). We say "βρύσες" in plural.

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Postby modus.irrealis » 2007-11-03, 19:01

Hi,

I have a question that I think fits in here. I'm of Greek descent but I was born and grew up in Canada and I notice that some of the Greek I've learned is somewhat non-standard, and some of it has to do with the formation of the plural with certain nouns.

Some of the time it's just strange shifts of stress -- for example I often say ανθρώποι, συμπεθέροι, διαβόλοι and so on (and the other day I was corrected for saying the last one by a native Greek speaker which is why this question came up for me).

Other times they're just irregular plural formations like μουσαφίρης > μουσαφιραίοι (although in fact, my grandparents actually say μισαφίρης), γείτονας > γειτόνοι, όνειρο > ονείρατα, μάστορας > μαστόροι, and a lot of -άδες plurals like δεσπότης > δεσποτάδες, αδερφή > αδερφάδες.

Now most of the time I find these alternate forms listed in the dictionary (and marked as λαϊκότροπος) but that doesn't really tell me much -- so my question is just how rare or common are these forms and how wrong, if it all, does it sound when someone uses them? I mean, I don't want to sound like some peasant from before the revolution :D, and as these are often what I naturally say (although I try not to write them), it'd be nice to know how much of an effort I should make to change them.

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Postby Kyr » 2007-11-03, 19:23

Hi. All of these forms are common in present-days oral speech (only the form ονείρατα, I think can be regarded as older, or rather poetic: perhaps also the form "αδερφάδες")

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Postby ego » 2007-11-05, 18:36

These are forms we often hear in our houses, we just avoid using them when talking to strangers, when speaking in formal occasions and when writing. But we do use them with family.
I remember my aunt exclaiming "σμίξανε πάλι οι αδερφάδες!" when she saw her sisters again after a year.

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Postby modus.irrealis » 2007-11-05, 22:05

Kyr and ego, thank you. It's good to know then that they sound natural.

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Re: Odd declensions in modern Greek

Postby Babelfish » 2012-03-09, 17:07

Επαναφέροντας ακόμα ένα νήμα :lol: Έπεσα πάνω τα επίθετα "δύσνους", "οξύνους" και "βραδύνους", με την γενική "οξύνου" ή "οξύνοος". Αναρωτιέμαι αν υπάρχουν άλλα τόσα επίθετα και αν ακόμα χρησιμοποιούνται.

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Re: Odd declensions in modern Greek

Postby meidei » 2012-03-18, 18:46

Μπα, δεν μου 'ρχεται κανένα άλλο. Δεν θα τα ακούσεις στον προφορικό λόγο, μόνο σε πολύ προσεγμένο λόγο.
Στην καθουμιλουμένη υπάρχει βέβαια το συνθετικός -μυαλός (βλ. ελαφρόμυαλος, ανοιχτόμυαλος, σκατόμυαλος και μερικά άλλα).
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Re: Odd declensions in modern Greek

Postby Babelfish » 2012-03-23, 15:08

Βεβαίως :P Σ' ευχαριστώ!

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Re: Odd declensions in modern Greek

Postby Aóristos » 2012-03-29, 20:33

Εμένα μου αρέσουν κυρίως τα θηλυκά και αρσενικά ουσιαστικά που ήρθαν από την αιτιατική κλήση της αρχαίας γλώσσας. ελπίδα < ἐλπίς \ ἐλπίδα \ ἐλπίδος \ ἐλπίδι. Ελλάδα < Ἑλλάς \ Ἑλλάδα \ Ἑλλάδος \ Ἑλλάδι. άνδρας > ἀνήρ \ ἀνδρός \ ἄνδρα \ ἀνδρί. Έχουμε και τα επίθετα που εγκλίνονται -ης | -ης | -ες (στον ενικό· -είς | -είς | -η στον πληθυντικό). Υπάρχουν περισσότερα ουσιαστικά και επίθετα που μου αρέσουν, μα δεν προλαβαίνω να εξηγούμαι εντελώς τώρα.
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Re: Odd declensions in modern Greek

Postby meidei » 2012-03-30, 15:17

Τα τριγενή δικατάληκτα (-ης -ης -ες) φακκούν μου. Κανένας έν ιξέρει να τα κλίσει τζιαι δυσπυρκώ που τα χορώ "λάθος" ποτζεί-ποδά. Καλλύττερα να τα εγράφαμεν όπως τα λαλούμεν (τουλάχιστον στα κυπριακά): ο διεθνής, του διεθνού (διεθνή) / η διεθνή,της διεθνής / το διεθνίν, του διεθνού
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Re: Odd declensions in modern Greek

Postby dimos » 2012-04-06, 8:55

meidei wrote:Τα τριγενή δικατάληκτα (-ης -ης -ες) φακκούν μου. Κανένας έν ιξέρει να τα κλίσει τζιαι δυσπυρκώ που τα χορώ "λάθος" ποτζεί-ποδά. Καλλύττερα να τα εγράφαμεν όπως τα λαλούμεν (τουλάχιστον στα κυπριακά): ο διεθνής, του διεθνού (διεθνή) / η διεθνή,της διεθνής / το διεθνίν, του διεθνού

Στη διάλεκτο μπορεί να υπάρχουν τέτοιοι τύποι, όμως δε μπορύμε να τους καθιερώσουμε και στην κοινή. Όσοι τους χρησιμοποιούν υποτίθεται πως δε μιλούν σωστά. Θυμάμαι από το σχολείο κιόλας την ειρωνεία των καθηγητών για τους ανθρώπους που λένε "ο σαφής - η σαφή κλπ" και το ζήλο μας να μην κάνουμε τα ίδια λάθη :D

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Re: Odd declensions in modern Greek

Postby Oleksij » 2012-04-06, 20:31

Δεν τα καταλάβαινα ποτέ. Το αρσενικό είναι 'διεθνής', το ουδέτερο 'διεθνές', και το θυλικό..;
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Re: Odd declensions in modern Greek

Postby meidei » 2012-04-08, 9:59

Τροχός είναι και γυρίζει. Κάποτε όσοι έλεγαν "η Ελλάδα" θεωρούνταν αγράμματοι.
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Re: Odd declensions in modern Greek

Postby dimos » 2012-04-09, 17:52

Oleksij wrote:Δεν τα καταλάβαινα ποτέ. Το αρσενικό είναι 'διεθνής', το ουδέτερο 'διεθνές', και το θυλικό..;

είναι
ο-η διεθνής, το διεθνές

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Re: Odd declensions in modern Greek

Postby dimos » 2012-04-09, 17:53

meidei wrote:Τροχός είναι και γυρίζει. Κάποτε όσοι έλεγαν "η Ελλάδα" θεωρούνταν αγράμματοι.

πλέον αυτά έχουν αποκρυσταλλωθεί και θα περάσουν ίσως και αιώνες να αναθεωρηθούν.

dimos
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Re: Odd declensions in modern Greek

Postby dimos » 2012-12-06, 2:44

Ενδιαφέρον παρουσιάζει και το ρήμα συμπλέκομαι που έχει 2 νοήματα: 1) μπλέκομαι με κάτι άλλο προκαλώντας σύγχυση κ 2)συμμετεχω σε καβγά.
Στον αόριστο λοιπόν η πρώτη σημασία απαιτεί το δημοτικό τύπο "συμπλέχτηκα" (τα γεγονοτα που ακολούθησαν συμπλέχτηκαν κ δημιουργήθηκε μια περίπλοκη κατάσταση)
Η δε δεύτερη σημασία απαιτεί τον αρχαίο αόριστο (οι νεαροί που συνεπλάκησαν προκαλώντας αναστάτωση στους περίοικους προσήχθησαν στο Τμήμα)

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meidei
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Re: Odd declensions in modern Greek

Postby meidei » 2012-12-06, 6:33

Διόρθωσα το διπλό ποστ.

Συμφωνώ dimos. Σίγουρα υπάρχουν και άλλες περιπτώσεις, όπου η "αρχαϊκή" σημασία χρησιμοποιεί την αρχαϊκή κλίση ενώ η σύγχρονη σημασία απαιτεί την τρέχουσα κλίση. Δυστυχώς δεν μπορώ να σκεφτώ άλλο παράδειγμα τώρα.
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