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Questions about Greek - Page 10 - UniLang

Questions about Greek

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Oleksij
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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Oleksij » 2011-08-05, 20:53

Μία άλλη ερώτηση, ρε παιδιά. Ξέρω για την χρήση των λέξεων 'δε(ν)' σε δυο ξεχωριστά πλαίσια - το ένα είναι, όταν η λέξη παίζει το ρόλο του αρνητικού σωματιδιού στο ενεστώς χρόνο, π.χ. 'δεν ξέρω', 'δεν απαντώ' κτλ. Έχω συναντήσει και ένα άλλο πλαίσιο, στο οποίο χρησημοποιείται αυτή η λέξη, για παράδειγμα 'ο δε άνηρ να φοβείτα τη γυνή'. Τί σημαίνει εδώ, και τί θα μπορούσε να είναι η πιο κοντινή ανάλογη λέξη στα αγγλικα;

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby ego » 2011-08-05, 20:57

HoneyBuzzard wrote:I'm having a problem with the syntax in Matthew 7:9:

ἢ τίς ἐστιν ἐξ ὑμῶν ἄνθρωπος, ὃν ἐὰν αἰτήση ὁ υἱὸς αὐτοῦ ἄρτον, μὴ λίθον ἐπιδώσει αὐτῷ;


Does this sentence contain a relative clause "(ἄνθρωπος), ὃν αἰτήση ὁ υἱὸς αὐτοῦ ἄρτον," or does it contain a conditional clause "ἐὰν αἰτήση ὁ υἱὸς αὐτοῦ ἄρτον" (belonging to "μὴ λίθον ἐπιδώσει αὐτῷ")?

Working backwards from the big translations I would have expected "[...] ἄνθρωπος, ὃς(,) ἐὰν αἰτήση [...], ἐπιδώσει[...]"

There are textual variants that omit the ἐὰν, but that doesn't fix it. Is this an error?


Tough... I'd expect ος too.. unless if it means smth else than what I think. I also do not understand what μη is doing there.. 'who of you is a human if when his son asks him for bread won't give him a stone'? Should be 'will give him a stone'. What am I missing?

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Bernard » 2011-08-07, 11:17

Χαῖρε, ὦ φιλέλλην.
ἢ τίς ἐστιν ἐξ ὑμῶν ἄνθρωπος, ὂν ἐὰν αἰτήση ὁ υἱὸς αὐτοῦ ἄρτον, μὴ λίθον ἐπιδώσει αὐτῷ;


It is a wellknown phenomenon both in classical Greek and Latin, in German called “relative Verschränkung” (i. e. relative entanglement ?, interlacing ?).
You see a main clause (ἢ τίς ἐστιν ἐξ ὑμῶν ἄνθρωπος) followed by a complex sentence consisting of an adverb clause (ἐὰν αἰτήση ὁ υἱὸς αὐτοῦ ἄρτον) subordinated to a following relative clause (μὴ* λίθον ἐπιδώσει αὐτῷ). In this very case the relative pronoun ‘normally’ being the subject of the superordinate relative clause (ὃς, ..., μὴ λίθον κτλ.) is usually transformed into a grammatical part of the preceding but subordinate adverb clause (ὃν: personal accusative object referring to αἰτήση).
Cf. Vulgata:
aut quis est ex vobis homo, quem si petierit filius suus panem, numquid lapidem porriget ei?
Authorized King James version:
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will give him a stone?
And Isocrates 8, 44:
Πρὸς τὸν πόλεμον ἀσκοῦμεν ξένους , οἷς ὁπόταν τις διδῷ πλείω μισθόν, μετ᾿ ἐκείνων ἐφ᾿ ἡμᾶς ἀκολοθοῦσιν
οἷς ὁπόταν τις instead of οἵ, ὁπόταν τις αὐτοῖς.

__________________________________________
* μή] interrogative particle, expecting merely a negative answer.

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Bernard » 2011-08-07, 14:16

Ἴσως που συμφέρει σοι: E. Bornemann / E. Risch, Griechische Grammatik, 1st ed., Frankfurt am Main 1973, p. 303 (§ 292, 3).
:ohwell:

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby shprakh » 2011-08-09, 15:27

Oleksij wrote:
cellobach wrote:Just four lessons... I thought greek was easier... :ohwell:

Modern Greek isn't difficult, other than the verbs.


But the verbs are veeeery difficult :lol: I also have a problem with the vocabulary...The spelling isn't easier either.
Last edited by shprakh on 2012-12-18, 21:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Elishamod » 2011-08-23, 20:00

Are diphthongs in Greek always sound like they are supposed to sound by the diphthong, or are there any exceptions?
For example, will αι always be 'e' and will οι always be "i"?
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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby meidei » 2011-08-23, 20:42

Digraphs, please, let's drop the classical terminology, is misleading.
αι will be /e/ and ει/οι/υι will be /i/ expect if the two letters fall different sides of the syllable boundary, and orthographically this is shown either with trema, if the accent does not fall on the first part of the digraph.
Examples:
οικοδομή (digraph read as /i/, no marking in spelling)
γάιδαρος (digraph is broken naturally, accent on first part, read as /'a.i/)
γαϊδούρι (digraph is broken with trema, accent on a different syllable, read as /a.i/)
ευφυΐα (digraph is broken with trema and the accent is on the latter part, read as /i.'i/.

Same goes for αυ and ευ, in which υ is pronounced as /v/ before vowels and voiced consonants and as /f/ elsewhere, except if anything of the above rules is true.

PS. And you can't have triphthongs in Greek, so the sign makers can stop putting trema on the word "σάντουιτς". No one will read "ουι" as anything other than /u.i/, and certainly not /ο.i/.
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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Elishamod » 2011-08-24, 7:04

Thank you :D
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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby shprakh » 2011-09-06, 12:07

Γεια!

το έργο, η ταινία, το φιλμ...What are the differences in use of those words?

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Oleksij » 2011-09-09, 20:26

Shadad wrote:Γεια!

το έργο, η ταινία, το φιλμ...What are the differences in use of those words?

No major difference between ταινία and φιλμ, however, έργο is literally translated as 'work' (that is a creation of sort), thus it does not necessarily have to refer to a film, but also to a work of literature, a building, an achievement, etc.
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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby shprakh » 2011-09-10, 12:50

Κατάλαβα. Σ'ευχαριστώ :)

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2011-09-14, 9:52

When I was in Greece, I recognised a lot of people said 'hè' after the last word of each sentence. For example, one woman screamed at us: 'You come back hè, you buy tickets hè!' I found this quite remarkeble, because in Dutch it's also very common to say 'hè' as a last sound, while it doesn't have a real meaning in particular. As I don't speak Greek, I was wondering if the same was done in Greek? And if not, why do they do it so often in English?
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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby meidei » 2011-09-15, 20:29

From the context I am guessing it's that /e:/ we use to signify that "don't forget to do what I just said".
Or it could just be a filler. /e:/ is a common filler sound around the world.
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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby dimos » 2011-10-10, 9:10

Oleksij wrote:
Shadad wrote:Γεια!

το έργο, η ταινία, το φιλμ...What are the differences in use of those words?

No major difference between ταινία and φιλμ, however, έργο is literally translated as 'work' (that is a creation of sort), thus it does not necessarily have to refer to a film, but also to a work of literature, a building, an achievement, etc.


"Φιλμ" is not greek. Officially "Ταινία" is the right word. Some people do the mistake to use the foreign word "Φιλμ". It's just ignorance and pseudomodernism i think.
"Έργο" means work and could be a film or any kind of artistic creation.

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby dimos » 2011-10-10, 9:23

Oleksij wrote:Μία άλλη ερώτηση, ρε παιδιά. Ξέρω για την χρήση των λέξεων 'δε(ν)' σε δυο ξεχωριστά πλαίσια - το ένα είναι, όταν η λέξη παίζει το ρόλο του αρνητικού σωματιδιού στο ενεστώς χρόνο, π.χ. 'δεν ξέρω', 'δεν απαντώ' κτλ. Έχω συναντήσει και ένα άλλο πλαίσιο, στο οποίο χρησημοποιείται αυτή η λέξη, για παράδειγμα 'ο δε άνηρ να φοβείτα τη γυνή'. Τί σημαίνει εδώ, και τί θα μπορούσε να είναι η πιο κοντινή ανάλογη λέξη στα αγγλικα;

Ευχαριστώ.


το "δε" στα αρχαια σημαινει "ενω". καμια φορα σημαινει "και"

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby meidei » 2011-10-13, 13:45

We are using the word φιλμ since like, when they were imported in Greece. My grand-grand-dad used that word (he referred to photographic films though, but words can have multiple meanings).

"This word is not Greek" is the stupidier thing I heard. You could say "I don't like this word" and I assure you, I would respect it.
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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby Nooj » 2011-10-14, 11:15

What sort of books do Greek kids read in primary and high school? Any recommendations for particular authors?

Thanks.

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby bojan » 2011-10-15, 9:56

1. What is φαρδιά πλατιά ? I can t find it in any dictionary.

2. Is there any difference between δύο [δío] and δυο [δjó] ? When we use one and when other ? Or it is the same ?

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby dimos » 2011-10-16, 10:02

bojan wrote:1. What is φαρδιά πλατιά ? I can t find it in any dictionary.

2. Is there any difference between δύο [δío] and δυο [δjó] ? When we use one and when other ? Or it is the same ?


1)The expression "φαρδιά πλατιά" can be the feminine or the adverbial type of "φαρδύς πλατύς".
This expression is used
a) when something falls, completely lying on a surface horizontally. ex: "έπεσε φαρδύς πλατύς στο δρόμο".
b) to stress the obvious presence of something lying somewhere. "είδα την υπογραφή του φαρδιά πλατιά στο έγγραφο".

2)No difference between δύο and δυο.

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Re: Questions about Greek

Postby bojan » 2011-10-16, 11:37

Dimos, να σε καλά, ευχαριστώ.


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