meidei wrote:But first, a note on the pronunciation of /g/:
(Conservative/Standard) [g] word-initially and reduplicated initial syllables, [ŋg] in medial position
(Contemporary urban, various regional dialects) [g] in all positions
[ŋg] in all positions. ([g] is a possible realisation of /k/ 'κ')
Warning 1: some words spelt with -γγ- don't have a /g/ at all, but a /ɣ/. Those are high-frequency words like συγγνώμη, έγγραφο, συγγραφέας (not a complete list).
Warning 2: In the IPA transcriptions below, I will use /g/ as a dialect-agnostic symbol. You are probably learning the conservative pronunciation, so assume [ŋg] when it's word-medial.
meidei wrote:I'd say that there is no "proper" and non-proper" Greek, but only dialects with different perceived prestige, but that will get us nowhere, wouldn't it?
meidei wrote:Never mind that Greek voiced plosives in SMG are described as PRE-nasalised, while CyG's are described as FULLY-nasalised.
meidei wrote:And if people in Greece weren't using [g] in urban circumstances, purism advocates wouldn't complaint about this shift to plain [g] in their articles.
meidei wrote:Also, what you label "etymologically correct spelling", it's either unattested or obsolete.
meidei wrote:Because you want to write them like that, don't give others the impression that Κόγγο will be seen as standard by the majority.
Despite the fact that the term "proper greek" (σωστά/ορθά ελληνικά) is used at all schools and universities of Greece
and considering the constant mistreatment of the standard language in Cyprus, it's not surprising to hear that from a cypriot.
By whom? Are you sure they refer to the proper pronunciation?
"Purism advocates"? You should know that the "Language Question" belongs to history. It ended for good decades ago. If there still exist a handful of purists, they are just a few eccentric, odd, old people, mostly royalists, 80 years old and above. I don't think they are able to write articles anymore.
Πoλλoί είναι στις μέρες μας αυτoί πoυ, σε πoλλoύς ραδιoφωvικoύς και τηλεoπτικoύς, ιδιωτικoύς ιδίως σταθμoύς, δεν εκφωvoύν αλλά εκ-φoνεύoυν τα κείμενα!... Τα εκτελoύν εν ψυχρώ και σε όλα τα επίπεδα: τo λεξιλoγικό, τo γραμματικoσυντακτικό και, πρoπάvτων, τo φωνητικό και τo νoηματικό. Τo να μη ξέρεις πώς πρoφέρoνται τα b (μπ), d (ντ), g (γκ, γγ) στην αρχή και στo μέσo τής λέξης (και να πρoφέρεις εκπobή, όgoς, πάda και παdoύ).
Even a school student knows that our orthography is historical, which means that the way a word is spelled reveals its etymological roots.
*etymologically incorrect; normally they should be spelled "κογγρέσσο" and "Κογγό"
meidei wrote:Who said that Greek-speaking schools are bastions of scientific methods?
meidei wrote:Cut off the personal attacks.
meidei wrote:By whom? Are you sure they refer to the proper pronunciation?
By professional linguists who recorded and analysed speakers of SMG.
meidei wrote:Maybe you want me to use the term "language defenders"..
meidei wrote:Here's an example of a high profile "language defender" bemoaning the rise of denasalised voiced stops, putting them in the same list as ungrammatical constructs (but also other aesthetic variety that isn't ungrammatical)(και να πρoφέρεις εκπobή, όgoς, πάda και παdoύ).
He says that de-nasalisation is akin to 'murdering' a text.
meidei wrote:Even a school student knows that our orthography is historical, which means that the way a word is spelled reveals its etymological roots.
It is partly historical. That applies mostly to native words (and even then, not to all of them), and old loanwords (a stretch by the way. Spelling it Σαίξπυρ doesn't lead you to Shakespeare since αι and υ are used to transcribe a dozen of other foreign vowel spellings. At best it tells you "it's anything other than Sexpir")
meidei wrote:*etymologically incorrect; normally they should be spelled "κογγρέσσο" and "Κογγό"
Those forms are rarely used in modern writing.The same way we now spell "έτσι" "έτσι", not "έτζη", as it was once the proper form.
I disagree with a certain rule but as a greek language teacher I always follow them.
meidei wrote:Just make it clear when you are bringing up obsolete forms calling them "actually correct", because people might go around using them.
Don't take my criticism personally.
Everyone has the right to analyse new tendencies and neologisms in grammar and phonology BUT the most reliable grammar books are those used by schools for the reason that they have the approval of the Academy of Athens, the most authoritative scientific institution responsible for the language. The new Grammar book issued this year surprisingly makes no mention of pronunciation rules for ΓΓ and ΓΚ (!) whereas the previous one (in use for many many years) makes it clear that:
It is confusing for a foreign learner of greek to be taught incorrect neologisms.
I know you believe that nothing can be considered incorrect
but this is against the general attitude of greek linguists who are extremely reluctant to accept any changes in phonology and grammar (proper vs non-proper).
Underestimating the most prestigeous greek linguist is not a good idea.
So, when he says "pada" or "ogos" he means a /d/ or /b/ or /g/ which still has a slight nasalisation that you can "feel". If i heard someone saying "ogos" I would assume he is not greek.
That applies to ALL native words of known etymology.
Are you dyslexic or what? Who said I spell these words like this?
So this proves the fact that our orthography constantly follows the etymological roots.
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