[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 402: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 402: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 402: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 402: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 402: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 402: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 402: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 402: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 402: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 402: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 402: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 402: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 402: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 402: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 423: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions::$regionsdata
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 423: Trying to get property of non-object
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 402: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 402: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 402: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
When to use -ΓΚ- or -ΓΓ- - UniLang

When to use -ΓΚ- or -ΓΓ-

Moderator: Aóristos

User avatar
meidei
Posts: 6119
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: CY Cyprus (Κύπρος / Kıbrıs)

When to use -ΓΚ- or -ΓΓ-

Postby meidei » 2013-12-11, 14:05

The spelling of the archphoneme /g/ is one of the blind spots of modern Greek spelling.
I found a "rough guide" of sorts on lexilogia.gr and I thought I'd translate it for you people.

But first, a note on the pronunciation of /g/:
 (el) (Conservative/Standard) [g] word-initially and reduplicated initial syllables, [ŋg] in medial position
 (el) (Contemporary urban, various regional dialects) [g] in all positions
 (el-cy) [ŋg] in all positions. ([g] is a possible realisation of /k/ 'κ')

Warning 1: some words spelt with -γγ- don't have a /g/ at all, but a /ɣ/. Those are high-frequency words like συγγνώμη, έγγραφο, συγγραφέας (not a complete list).

Warning 2: In the IPA transcriptions below, I will use /g/ as a dialect-agnostic symbol. You are probably learning the conservative pronunciation, so assume [ŋg] when it's word-medial.

Now, the rules:

-ΓΓ-

1. Compound words where the first element ends in -ν and the second starts with γ-:
συγγενής (συν+γέν-ης) /sige'nis/
συγγνώμη (συν+γνώμη) /si'ɣnomi/
2. Words which had -γγ- in older derived froms (eg, under Ancient Greek phonological rules):
λαρύγγι /la'rigi/, derived from  (grc) λάρυγξ which had -γγ- in oblique cases, eg λάρυγγος
3. Words of unclear etymology where it is strongly believed that they were once compound words with ν+γ, or merely have been always attested with -γγ-:
εγγύς (high register word for κοντινός) /e'gis/
γογγύζω (high register word for βογκώ - unclear PIE etymology) /ɣο'gizo/
4. Older loanwords transcribing a foreign /g/ or /ŋg/, mostly words that are adapted into the native noun system:
Άγγλος /'aglos/
Μογγολία /mogo'lia/
αγγούρι /a'guri/

-ΓK-
1. When /g/ occurs in the very beginning or the very end of a word. (-γγ- occurs only medially)
γκολ /gol/ - loanword
γκαστρώνω /ga'strono/ - from  (grc) εγγαστρώνω /egastrono/
Γκογκ (/gog/) - Dutch-through-French loanword: van Gogh
2. Recent loanwords, demotic loanwords, or ad-hoc transliterations of foreign words with /g/, /ŋg/, or /ŋk/:
ζούγκλα /zugla/
μάγκας /'magas/
γκουγκλάρω /gug'laro/
2. Compound words with the first element ending in -ν, and the second starting with κ-:
εγκυκλοπαίδεια /egiklo'peðia/
έγκυος /'egios/
έγκριση /'egrisi/
3. Words with unclear etymology usually attested with -γκ-:
άγκυρα /'agira/
αγκαλιά /agka'lja/
Knows:Cypriot Standard Greek & Cypriot Spoken Greek (el-cy)| (en)|Standard Greek - Greece's Written Standard (el)
Attempting:  (tr) (sgn-CY)
Resuming shorty: (fr)
Forgetting: (ja)

User avatar
Babelfish
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 4302
Joined: 2005-07-21, 12:00
Gender: male
Location: רחובות
Country: IL Israel (ישראל / إسرائيل)
Contact:

Re: When to use -ΓΚ- or -ΓΓ-

Postby Babelfish » 2013-12-13, 16:06

Thanks! :waytogo: I haven't noticed that -γγ- only occurs mid-word, that in itself should prove useful...
Native languages: Hebrew (he) & English (en)

מן המקום בו אנו צודקים לא יפרחו לעולם פרחים באביב (יהודה עמיחי)
From the place where we are in the right, flowers will never grow in the spring (Yhuda Amihay)

dimos
Posts: 274
Joined: 2008-10-24, 15:24
Real Name: mitsos
Gender: male
Location: Thessaloniki
Country: GR Greece (Ελλάς)

Re: When to use -ΓΚ- or -ΓΓ-

Postby dimos » 2013-12-14, 0:59

meidei wrote:But first, a note on the pronunciation of /g/:
 (el) (Conservative/Standard) [g] word-initially and reduplicated initial syllables, [ŋg] in medial position
 (el) (Contemporary urban, various regional dialects) [g] in all positions
 (el-cy) [ŋg] in all positions. ([g] is a possible realisation of /k/ 'κ')

Warning 1: some words spelt with -γγ- don't have a /g/ at all, but a /ɣ/. Those are high-frequency words like συγγνώμη, έγγραφο, συγγραφέας (not a complete list).

Warning 2: In the IPA transcriptions below, I will use /g/ as a dialect-agnostic symbol. You are probably learning the conservative pronunciation, so assume [ŋg] when it's word-medial.


What you call Conservative Standard language or pronuciation is not less contemporary and urban than "Contemporary Urban". In fact the distinction is between proper greek (ορθά ελληνικά) and non-proper greek (μη ορθά ελληνικά).
Now, in proper greek ŋg is pronounced with a clear ŋ (just like the cypriot ŋg), not ŋg.
In some varieties (non-proper pronunciation) there is a tendency towards ŋg which means you can still "feel" the presence of ŋ before g; it never goes silent so ŋg is not reduced to g. I can't imagine a native speaker saying "magas" or "Mogolia"...
The spelling rules are simple:
G: ΓΚ
ŋG: ΓΚ, ΓΓ
Difference between ΓΚ (ŋg) and ΓΓ:
ΓΚ derives either from ancient greek ΓΚ (nk) (e.g. όγκος) or from foreign "nk" in ancient loans or names (e.g. κογκορδάτο<concordatum, Φραγκίσκος<Franciscus ) or from foreign "ng" in recent loans or names* (e.g. κογκρέσο<congresso, Κογκό<Congo).
ΓΓ derives from ancient greek ΓΓ (ng) (e.g. άγγελος) or from foreign "ng" in ancient loans or ancient foreign names (e.g. αγγαρεύω, Αγγλία)

(*etymologically incorrect; normally they should be spelled "κογγρέσσο" and "Κογγό")

User avatar
meidei
Posts: 6119
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: CY Cyprus (Κύπρος / Kıbrıs)

Re: When to use -ΓΚ- or -ΓΓ-

Postby meidei » 2013-12-14, 12:33

I'd say that there is no "proper" and non-proper" Greek, but only dialects with different perceived prestige, but that will get us nowhere, wouldn't it?

Never mind that Greek voiced plosives in SMG are described as PRE-nasalised, while CyG's are described as FULLY-nasalised.
And if people in Greece weren't using [g] in urban circumstances, purism advocates wouldn't complaint about this shift to plain [g] in their articles.

Also, what you label "etymologically correct spelling", it's either unattested or obsolete. Because you want to write them like that, don't give others the impression that Κόγγο will be seen as standard by the majority.
Knows:Cypriot Standard Greek & Cypriot Spoken Greek (el-cy)| (en)|Standard Greek - Greece's Written Standard (el)
Attempting:  (tr) (sgn-CY)
Resuming shorty: (fr)
Forgetting: (ja)

dimos
Posts: 274
Joined: 2008-10-24, 15:24
Real Name: mitsos
Gender: male
Location: Thessaloniki
Country: GR Greece (Ελλάς)

Re: When to use -ΓΚ- or -ΓΓ-

Postby dimos » 2013-12-14, 18:12

meidei wrote:I'd say that there is no "proper" and non-proper" Greek, but only dialects with different perceived prestige, but that will get us nowhere, wouldn't it?

Despite the fact that the term "proper greek" (σωστά/ορθά ελληνικά) is used at all schools and universities of Greece, and considering the constant mistreatment of the standard language in Cyprus, it's not surprising to hear that from a cypriot.
meidei wrote:Never mind that Greek voiced plosives in SMG are described as PRE-nasalised, while CyG's are described as FULLY-nasalised.

By whom? Are you sure they refer to the proper pronunciation?
meidei wrote:And if people in Greece weren't using [g] in urban circumstances, purism advocates wouldn't complaint about this shift to plain [g] in their articles.

"Purism advocates"? You should know that the "Language Question" belongs to history. It ended for good decades ago. If there still exist a handful of purists, they are just a few eccentric, odd, old people, mostly royalists, 80 years old and above. I don't think they are able to write articles anymore.
meidei wrote:Also, what you label "etymologically correct spelling", it's either unattested or obsolete.

Our orthography is historical (ιστορική ορθογραφία), which means that the way a word is spelled reveals its etymological roots. This shouldn't be something new to you... :?
meidei wrote:Because you want to write them like that, don't give others the impression that Κόγγο will be seen as standard by the majority.

No I don't! What I said was that I disagree with a certain rule but as a greek language teacher I always follow them. (btw it is Κογκό not Κόγκο) Dura leχ sed lex. :)

User avatar
meidei
Posts: 6119
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: CY Cyprus (Κύπρος / Kıbrıs)

Re: When to use -ΓΚ- or -ΓΓ-

Postby meidei » 2013-12-14, 18:53

Despite the fact that the term "proper greek" (σωστά/ορθά ελληνικά) is used at all schools and universities of Greece

Who said that Greek-speaking schools are bastions of scientific methods?

and considering the constant mistreatment of the standard language in Cyprus, it's not surprising to hear that from a cypriot.

Cut off the personal attacks.
It's not the place to discuss language policies in Cyprus, but if you do research that, you'll see that the reason for inadequate mastery of SMG in Cyprus is because we use books (issued by the Greek Ministry of Education) that assume the students already speak SMG natively, when in fact they don't. Not because anyone in Cyprus wants to move away from SMG as an official language.

By whom? Are you sure they refer to the proper pronunciation?

By professional linguists who recorded and analysed speakers of SMG.

This is the often-cited Arvaniti 1999, already finding that PRE-nasalisation is becoming less common, and de-nasalised voiced stops are on the rise.
arvaniti99.png

Arvaniti_JIPA_GR.pdf



"Purism advocates"? You should know that the "Language Question" belongs to history. It ended for good decades ago. If there still exist a handful of purists, they are just a few eccentric, odd, old people, mostly royalists, 80 years old and above. I don't think they are able to write articles anymore.

You know I am not talking about Katharevousa advocates.
Maybe you want me to use the term "language defenders". Fair enough.
Here's an example of a high profile "language defender" bemoaning the rise of denasalised voiced stops, putting them in the same list as ungrammatical constructs (but also other aesthetic variety that isn't ungrammatical)
Πoλλoί είναι στις μέρες μας αυτoί πoυ, σε πoλλoύς ραδιoφωvικoύς και τηλεoπτικoύς, ιδιωτικoύς ιδίως σταθμoύς, δεν εκφωvoύν αλλά εκ-φoνεύoυν τα κείμενα!... Τα εκτελoύν εν ψυχρώ και σε όλα τα επίπεδα: τo λεξιλoγικό, τo γραμματικoσυντακτικό και, πρoπάvτων, τo φωνητικό και τo νoηματικό. Τo να μη ξέρεις πώς πρoφέρoνται τα b (μπ), d (ντ), g (γκ, γγ) στην αρχή και στo μέσo τής λέξης (και να πρoφέρεις εκπobή, όgoς, πάda και παdoύ).

He says that de-nasalisation is akin to 'murdering' a text.


Even a school student knows that our orthography is historical, which means that the way a word is spelled reveals its etymological roots.

It is partly historical. That applies mostly to native words (and even then, not to all of them), and old loanwords (a stretch by the way. Spelling it Σαίξπυρ doesn't lead you to Shakespeare since αι and υ are used to transcribe a dozen of other foreign vowel spellings. At best it tells you "it's anything other than Sexpir")
*etymologically incorrect; normally they should be spelled "κογγρέσσο" and "Κογγό"

Those forms are rarely used in modern writing. The same way we now spell "έτσι" "έτσι", not "έτζη", as it was once the proper form.

Just make it clear when you are bringing up obsolete forms calling them "actually correct", because people might go around using them.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Knows:Cypriot Standard Greek & Cypriot Spoken Greek (el-cy)| (en)|Standard Greek - Greece's Written Standard (el)
Attempting:  (tr) (sgn-CY)
Resuming shorty: (fr)
Forgetting: (ja)

dimos
Posts: 274
Joined: 2008-10-24, 15:24
Real Name: mitsos
Gender: male
Location: Thessaloniki
Country: GR Greece (Ελλάς)

Re: When to use -ΓΚ- or -ΓΓ-

Postby dimos » 2013-12-17, 11:10

meidei wrote:Who said that Greek-speaking schools are bastions of scientific methods?

Nihilistic and insulting.
meidei wrote:Cut off the personal attacks.

Don't take my criticism personally.
meidei wrote:
By whom? Are you sure they refer to the proper pronunciation?

By professional linguists who recorded and analysed speakers of SMG.

Everyone has the right to analyse new tendencies and neologisms in grammar and phonology BUT the most reliable grammar books are those used by schools for the reason that they have the approval of the Academy of Athens, the most authoritative scientific institution responsible for the language. The new Grammar book issued this year surprisingly makes no mention of pronunciation rules for ΓΓ and ΓΚ (!) whereas the previous one (in use for many many years) makes it clear that:
-ΓΓ is always nasalised (occurs mid-word). The first Γ is pronounced Ν the second like non-nasalised ΓΚ (Αγγλία->Αν-γκλία, φεγγάρι->φεν-γκάρι)
-ΓΚ is nasalised in MOST cases (mid-word position). Thus, Γ is pronounced separately like a N, and K is pronounced like the non-nasalised ΓΚ (g) (αγκάθι-> αν-γκάθι, αγκαλιά-> αν-γκαλιά etc)
-ΓΚ is not nasalised
1) at the beginning of words and
2) at the middle of words following a consonant (αργκό-> αρ-γκό)
3) RARELY at the middle of words following a vowel, mostly in loanwords (μπαγκέτα->μπα-γκέτα)

It is confusing for a foreign learner of greek to be taught incorrect neologisms. I know you believe that nothing can be considered incorrect (it is your personal right to think so) but this is against the general attitude of greek linguists who are extremely reluctant to accept any changes in phonology and grammar (proper vs non-proper). Such deviations from the standard language indicate low education level and most people (try to) avoid them, at least in Greece.
meidei wrote:Maybe you want me to use the term "language defenders"..

"Purism advocates"-obsolete
"language defenders"... never heard these term before.
meidei wrote:Here's an example of a high profile "language defender" bemoaning the rise of denasalised voiced stops, putting them in the same list as ungrammatical constructs (but also other aesthetic variety that isn't ungrammatical)
(και να πρoφέρεις εκπobή, όgoς, πάda και παdoύ).

He says that de-nasalisation is akin to 'murdering' a text.

-Underestimating the most prestigeous greek linguist is not a good idea.
-I still remember our first english teacher who would correct us all the time because we pronounced the word "ready" as "reandy", with a slight n before d. The reason is that a native greek speaker has difficulty pronouncing a plain d following a vowel. Not to mention the former President of the European Commission Romano Prodi whose name was always pronounced Prondi on greek TV. So, when he says "pada" or "ogos" he means a /d/ or /b/ or /g/ which still has a slight nasalisation that you can "feel". If i heard someone saying "ogos" I would assume he is not greek.
meidei wrote:
Even a school student knows that our orthography is historical, which means that the way a word is spelled reveals its etymological roots.

It is partly historical. That applies mostly to native words (and even then, not to all of them), and old loanwords (a stretch by the way. Spelling it Σαίξπυρ doesn't lead you to Shakespeare since αι and υ are used to transcribe a dozen of other foreign vowel spellings. At best it tells you "it's anything other than Sexpir")

That applies to ALL native words of known etymology. As for loanwords there is the distinction between ancient and recent ones.
meidei wrote:
*etymologically incorrect; normally they should be spelled "κογγρέσσο" and "Κογγό"

Those forms are rarely used in modern writing.The same way we now spell "έτσι" "έτσι", not "έτζη", as it was once the proper form.

Are you dyslexic or what? Who said I spell these words like this? Let me remind what I said
I disagree with a certain rule but as a greek language teacher I always follow them.

meidei wrote:Just make it clear when you are bringing up obsolete forms calling them "actually correct", because people might go around using them.

I'm sure my foreign students speak greek more fluently than you. (This was personal because I suspect you are intentionally distorting what I've said)
As for "έτσι"-"έτζη" let me say that it's not a matter of fashion. The spelling changed because the new version is closer to the etymological evolution of the word. So this proves the fact that our orthography constantly follows the etymological roots.

User avatar
meidei
Posts: 6119
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: CY Cyprus (Κύπρος / Kıbrıs)

Re: When to use -ΓΚ- or -ΓΓ-

Postby meidei » 2013-12-17, 12:24

Don't take my criticism personally.

The responsibility falls upon the one making the claims.

Everyone has the right to analyse new tendencies and neologisms in grammar and phonology BUT the most reliable grammar books are those used by schools for the reason that they have the approval of the Academy of Athens, the most authoritative scientific institution responsible for the language. The new Grammar book issued this year surprisingly makes no mention of pronunciation rules for ΓΓ and ΓΚ (!) whereas the previous one (in use for many many years) makes it clear that:

Are you seriously going to say that a grammar book first compiled in 1941 (Triantafillides grammar), and reprinted ever after, carries more validity than professional linguistic work of the last two decades? That alone should make everyone wary of the rules you present.
The fact that the new grammar that was compiled in the 2010s doesn't make hard claims about the nasalisation, is another proof that the pronunciation of the voiced stops is not stable right now.
As I said, the prenasalised utterances remain the prestige variant, but anyone who listens to native Greek speakers, without a doubt will come across the realisation without nasalisation. You might consider that those people speak "Wrong", but without a doubt, that's how they speak.
It is confusing for a foreign learner of greek to be taught incorrect neologisms.

Neologism means newly coined word (and there's no reason a learner would be confused by them. To the contrary, they are words they will come cross in natural Greek texts, which are rife with neologisms, so they should be able to understand them).
Pronunciation variants aren't neologisms. They are macro-trends that might dominate and replace the old convention. Here, I presented the three main trends (Prestige SMG, contemporary-SMG-and-also-standard-in-some-regional-variants, and Cypriot SMG) with an explicit suggestion of sticking with the prestige variant unless they are trying to acquire some other variant.

I know you believe that nothing can be considered incorrect

You are wrong again. I used the term "ungrammatical" before.
In linguistics, that's how you define what's wrong at the current place and time.

If you are an educator, I heavily suggest that you pick up the newly released Μίλα μου για Γλώσσα, by Crete University Press. It's a short introduction to the science of linguistics, with emphasis on Modern Greek linguistics. There's also a number of similar books in English, that's the first to be authored by a Greek linguist.
but this is against the general attitude of greek linguists who are extremely reluctant to accept any changes in phonology and grammar (proper vs non-proper).

You are wrong again. There is scientific consensus among Greek linguists. They are descriptivists. Ie, they document what native speakers produce. And sociolinguists record the attitudes about the various variants.
Linguists themselves never define something as proper or non-proper. Their job is to document how people speak and use that data for useful applications. Even sociolinguists do not decide what's proper, but they record the attitudes of other people.
And again, as both Arvaniti 1999, and me in my original post clarified, pre-nasalised voiced stops remain the prestige variant. It doesn't mean that educated people don't use the denasalised version increasingly often, it just means that segments of the speaking community will judge them. For example, Babiniotis calling journalists who talk like that, "murderers". That's one attitude against denasalisation that linguists record.

Again, I suggest you read an introduction into the science of linguistics.

Underestimating the most prestigeous greek linguist is not a good idea.

He is not very respected within the scientific community. He has only prestige among the lay people, partly because he was the first linguist in modern Greece, and had a media persona.
Whole (Greek) universities refuse to work with him and his team.

So, when he says "pada" or "ogos" he means a /d/ or /b/ or /g/ which still has a slight nasalisation that you can "feel". If i heard someone saying "ogos" I would assume he is not greek.

Are you willing to reproduce those observations in a lab? Or should we take your word for it?
Because over the last two decades, the increasingly popular denasalised voiced stop realisation is well documented in the academic literature. Do personal anecdotes carry more prestige?
That applies to ALL native words of known etymology.

We know the etymology of the verb suffix of the subjunctive, but we don't spell it according to it.
να δηλώσει, not να δηλώση(ι)
We know the etymology of the names ending in -ης, but we don't spell them with -ις save for few idiosyncratic usages for people like Χατζιδάκις.
We know the etymology of τσιρότο, but we don't spell it τσηρώτο, and while κτήριο is the spelling based on the etymology, even the dictionaries, by nature conservative, accept κτίριο.
And so on.


Are you dyslexic or what? Who said I spell these words like this?

I was illustrating that conventions, like spelling, can change.

So this proves the fact that our orthography constantly follows the etymological roots.

Not always (what's up with your tendency of deriving universal rules by one word or one anecdote only anyway). As I wrote above, many changes went towards the direction of more uniformity, especially when it came to the inflected parts of the words. Others when towards the direction of etymology. Έτσι, αβγό, αφτί κοιτάζω and so on do reflect their etymology better than the past standard spelling.

In any case, that's a final attempt to ignite some interest in you in looking up the basics of the science whose turf you are overstepping, and avoid making such unscientific and misleading posts in the future. Just a hope of mine of course, you don't have to do anything, but I think it's the responsible thing to do, if you want to make linguistic claims.
Knows:Cypriot Standard Greek & Cypriot Spoken Greek (el-cy)| (en)|Standard Greek - Greece's Written Standard (el)
Attempting:  (tr) (sgn-CY)
Resuming shorty: (fr)
Forgetting: (ja)

User avatar
ego
Posts: 4917
Joined: 2004-12-06, 15:19
Real Name: Thanasis
Gender: male
Location: SX
Country: GB United Kingdom (United Kingdom)

Re: When to use -ΓΚ- or -ΓΓ-

Postby ego » 2013-12-18, 19:46

I don't believe that there is any Greek variety where all instances of /g/ are realised as [g]. I'm sure that in several words almost all natives would realise it as prenasalised. Personally I cannot imagine anyone saying ['egrafo] but I might be wrong. I know I had this discussion before with some linguist and we agreed on that but can't remember who :( Unlike what dimos said though, I think many people (including me) say [magas].

By the way, why do you call /g/ an "archiphoneme"?

User avatar
meidei
Posts: 6119
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: CY Cyprus (Κύπρος / Kıbrıs)

Re: When to use -ΓΚ- or -ΓΓ-

Postby meidei » 2013-12-18, 20:05

It's true that I used "Archphoneme" metaphorically there.
I meant to use it as dialect-agnostic transcription, so I wouldn't have to always put ŋ in brackets every time.
Knows:Cypriot Standard Greek & Cypriot Spoken Greek (el-cy)| (en)|Standard Greek - Greece's Written Standard (el)
Attempting:  (tr) (sgn-CY)
Resuming shorty: (fr)
Forgetting: (ja)

User avatar
Gonloyir
Posts: 32
Joined: 2014-09-08, 9:11
Real Name: Patroklos Velopoulos
Gender: male
Location: Larisa or Larissa
Country: GR Greece (Ελλάς)

Re: When to use -ΓΚ- or -ΓΓ-

Postby Gonloyir » 2014-09-12, 11:41

"Πoλλoί είναι στις μέρες μας αυτoί πoυ, σε πoλλoύς ραδιoφωvικoύς και τηλεoπτικoύς, ιδιωτικoύς ιδίως σταθμoύς, δεν εκφωvoύν αλλά εκ-φoνεύoυν τα κείμενα!... Τα εκτελoύν εν ψυχρώ και σε όλα τα επίπεδα: τo λεξιλoγικό, τo γραμματικoσυντακτικό και, πρoπάvτων, τo φωνητικό και τo νoηματικό. Τo να μη ξέρεις πώς πρoφέρoνται τα b (μπ), d (ντ), g (γκ, γγ) στην αρχή και στo μέσo τής λέξης (και να πρoφέρεις εκπobή, όgoς, πάda και παdoύ)."

To "ντ" αντί για "dou" προφέρεται κάποιες φορές "νού-τού" όπως στο aNT. -_-


Return to “Greek (Ελληνικά)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest