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Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian - Page 35 - UniLang

Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

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Thon
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Thon » 2014-03-18, 0:23

Ma valisin nime "mänd" sest kasvasin Seattle'is, mis on mändide ja seedrite tõttu tuntud.
Last edited by Thon on 2014-06-01, 11:55, edited 1 time in total.

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ainurakne
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2014-03-18, 0:46

Lumilintu wrote:Daniel Tammet on autistlik "geenius", kes on muuhulgas tuntud ka oma keeleoskuste tõttu.
Kas see on see mees, kes õppis nädalaga islandi keeles vestlema?
Thon wrote:Mida teha, kui pole sihitist, nagu 'I will think about it'?
Oleneb, millist mõtlemist sa silmas pead. Kui tegemist on sellise mõtlemisega, mis päädib mingisuguse otsuse langetamisega, siis mina ütleksin "Ma mõtlen selle üle (järele).", "Ma mõtlen järele." või "Ma kaalun seda.". Sellisel juhul võib küll mõtlemisprotsess juba käia, kuid otsus tuleb igal juhul tulevikus.

Lauset "Ma mõtlen sellest." saab aga minu meelest kasutada vaid praeguse hetke kohta või siis üldistatult (ma mõtlen sellest mõnikord). Muidugi saab siingi tulevikule viidata, näiteks "Ma mõtlen sellest homme." või "Ma hakkan sellest mõtlema.".

"Ma mõtlen selle peale." või "Ma mõtlen sellele." on nüüd selline, mis võib viidata nii olevikule kui ka tulevikule, seega kummast räägitakse järeldub kontekstist. Samas on ka palju selliseid olukordi, kus see ei ole üldse tähtis. Eestlaste jaoks on nii mõneski olukorras tulevik koos praeguse hetkega üks lahutamatu tervik.

Thon wrote: :nope: Sa pead kuulma mind rääkimas. Mu aktsent eesti keeles on üsna kohutav. :)
Haha, ma ei usu, et see on hullem minu aktsendist inglise keelt rääkides.
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Lumilintu
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Lumilintu » 2014-03-18, 8:04

ainurakne wrote:
Lumilintu wrote:Daniel Tammet on autistlik "geenius", kes on muuhulgas tuntud ka oma keeleoskuste tõttu.

Kas see on see mees, kes õppis nädalaga islandi keeles vestlema?

Jah, too ( :P ) on see sama mees.

ainurakne wrote:
Thon wrote: :nope: Sa pead kuulma mind rääkimas. Mu aktsent eesti keeles on üsna kohutav. :)
Haha, ma ei usu, et see on hullem minu aktsendist inglise keelt rääkides.

Mul on kaks sõpra, kes siin Eestis elavad ja enamus ajast eesti keelt räägivad, kuid kelle emakeeleks on inglise keel (üks on pärit USAst, teine Kanadast). Aktsent neil muidugi on, ühel rohkem kui teisel, kuid tegelikult nende põhiprobleemiks on see, et nad hääldavad alati kõik sõnad selgelt välja. Ükski tavaline eesti mees niimoodi ei tee, üldiselt nad ikka mõmisevad omaette ja mõmisedes neelavad nad pooled sõnad täitsa alla.
See oli vist veidi liialdatud, aga vahel ikka jääb selline mulje. Sellest on rääkinud mulle juba mitu välismaalast, et eesti naistest on palju lihtsam aru saada kui meestest, ning ise olen seda ka kogenenud, kui ma esimest korda Eestisse elama tulles keelt veel nii hästi ei valdanud.
(Ja ausalt öeldes tänagi vahel jään mõtisklema, kas keegi mees minu kõrval nüüd tegelikult ütles midagi või niisama mõmises-põmises. :lol: )
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2014-03-18, 10:24

Ja-jaa, eks ma isegi sooviksin selgemini rääkida. Teinekord panen tähele, kuidas mu jutt väga kiireks ja närviliseks muutub, siis püüan hoo maha võtta. Üldse harjutan viimasel ajal aeglasemini rääkima - lisaks häälduse paranemisele jääb siis ka rohkem aega mõelda, mis omakorda tähendab vähem lolli juttu :wink:

Lumilintu wrote:Jah, too ( :P ) on see sama mees.
Heh, mõtlesingi, et kuidas tolles lauses 'toda' kasutada - kas 'too on see' või 'see on too' - ei ole mul põhjaeestlasena selles erilist vilumust.
Samas, kui püüdsin mõelda, kuidas põline lõunaeestlane seda ütleks, siis jõudsin arvamusele, et 'tuu om tuu miis' - mis on lihtsalt vastupidine :D
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Lumilintu » 2014-03-18, 18:34

'too on see' tundus mulle kuidagi loomulikum, aga ei oska seletada, miks. Kuidagi oli selline tunne, et kui kirjutan 'see on too', peaks too selles lauses olema mingi uus tegija, mitte keegi, kellest olen varem rääkinud. Aga see seletus tundub veidi kahtlane, selline arusaam on mul vist pigem tekkinud soome keele mõjul.

Mul on tegelikult juured Läänemaal, nii et minagi ei peaks vahet tegema sellel ja tollel. Aga aeg-ajalt ikka juhtub, et kasutan esimese asemel viimast ning seni ei ole veel ükski põline lõunaeestlane kaevanud. Samas aga räägin kogu aeg vigaselt, nii et võib ka olla, et nad lihtsalt ei näe enam vaeva minu eesti keele parandamisega. :mrgreen:
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Lauren » 2014-07-13, 4:24

Am I just crazy, or is the /l/ in Estonian sometimes retroflex? I swear I hear it like a retroflex consonant in recordings and songs of different people. It seems to sound like that before consonants or at the end of words. It definitely doesn't sound like a normal [l] to me. :shock:
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ainurakne
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2014-07-13, 10:30

I'm not sure, because I can only distinguish between "regular" and palatalized 'l'.

But if by retroflex 'l' you mean something like this, then Estonian 'l'-s are indeed farther back than for example Finnish ones. So I guess some may get quite close to the one in the picture.

Do you have any specific examples?
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Murk » 2014-07-15, 20:08

Lumilintu wrote:'too on see' tundus mulle kuidagi loomulikum, aga ei oska seletada, miks

why do you speak that much estonian? how/how long have you learned?
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Lauren » 2014-07-15, 22:56

Thanks, ainurakne. One example is in the song Olgu nii, where the singer says "jalajälgegi". The second /l/ sounds (somewhat) retroflex to me.

Another phonetics question: Are /t/ and /d/ dental in Estonian? That's what they sound like to me, but I'm not sure.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2014-07-16, 6:33

You are welcome!
Lowena wrote:One example is in the song Olgu nii, where the singer says "jalajälgegi". The second /l/ sounds (somewhat) retroflex to me.
Hmm, to me it sounds as quite purely palatalized /lʲ/.

Lowena wrote:Another phonetics question: Are /t/ and /d/ dental in Estonian? That's what they sound like to me, but I'm not sure.
I don't think so. At least I don't pronunciate them as dentals. The only occasion I would use dental-ish /d/ is when a word (of foreign origin, for example 'diivan') begins with a /d/ and I have to show to someone that it is indeed /d/ and not /t/ (otherwise my /d/ in 'diivan' sounds pretty much the same as /t/ in 'tiivad').

Maybe it's palatalization again that makes /t/ and /d/ sound similar to dentals.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Lauren » 2014-07-16, 8:02

Hmm, maybe I'm confusing the sound of a palatal 'l' with retroflex. :hmm: I've been known to confuse sounds before!

And thank you for your input on /t/ and /d/. I guess I hear a lot of sounds incorrectly. :lol:
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Lumilintu » 2014-08-30, 16:57

Murk wrote:
Lumilintu wrote:'too on see' tundus mulle kuidagi loomulikum, aga ei oska seletada, miks

why do you speak that much estonian? how/how long have you learned?


Sorry, didn't notice your question until now. Long story short: My mother is Estonian, but didn't teach me the language when I was little. I learned a bit of Estonian by spending most of my summers in Estonia, though. One day I decided that that was not enough and moved to Estonia at the age of 14, lived there one year and became sort of fluent in the language that way.
I moved back to Estonia at the age of 17 and have been living here for two years now. I'm studying Estonian and Finno-Ugric linguistics at university nowadays, so I'm finally having courses on Estonian as well and even though those are actually meant for real native speakers, I benefit a lot from them.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Algernon » 2015-01-04, 11:44

Kas keegi siin tunneb inglise keeles vastet - lapsesuu?
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ainurakne
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2015-01-04, 12:10

Algernon wrote:Kas keegi siin tunneb inglise keeles vastet - lapsesuu?
Literally, it's "child's mouth".
And it means that children speak about things the way they are (until they learn how to lie) and/or from their own perspective (which can be funny, strange or shocking from an adult's point of view).

Unfortunately, I have no idea, how is this phenomenon actually called in English.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Swienegel » 2015-01-04, 17:14

Yeah, it could also be a calque from the german word "Kindermund". Our saying is "Kindermund tut Wahrheit kund" (literally "A child's mouth proclaims the truth") - Children and fools tell the truth ;) ("Lapsesuu ei valeta" in Estonian)

There seems to be a saying about this in every language :D
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Algernon » 2015-01-05, 11:48

Lapsesuu- thanks both for your replies :-)
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby LMNY » 2015-01-18, 0:53

Hi!

I have a question about the pronunciations of õ and õõ.

As far as I know, õõ is the longer version of õ.

Apart from this, I have found that when estonians pronouce õ, the mouth (especially the throat part) is more open than that when pronouncing õõ. In other words, õ sounds more or less like a schwa, and õõ sounds like â in romanian or ı in turkish.

But I am not quite sure about it. I would appreciate it a lot if you could confirm or correct this.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2015-01-18, 11:31

"õõ" can be actually either long or overlong, but this difference is not visible in writing.

All lengths of "õ" should sound the same, and I guess for an average Estonian they do.
What changes the sound of "õ", is more likely the context (which sounds surround it). For example, if "õ" is followed by "e" either in the same syllable or possibly in the next, then "õ" could sound more or less like a schwa, even if it's long or overlong. But this can vary per person, so I guess it all comes down to what is easier to pronounce.

Do you have any specific examples where you could detect the difference?
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby LMNY » 2015-01-18, 16:07

Thank you very much for the explanation.

As to your question, here are some examples:

mõrv: http://www.forvo.com/search/m%C3%B5rv/
põud: http://www.forvo.com/search/p%C3%B5ud/
sõber: http://www.forvo.com/search/s%C3%B5ber/et/

mõõk: http://www.forvo.com/search/m%C3%B5%C3%B5k/et/
põõsas: http://www.forvo.com/search/p%C3%B5%C3%B5sas/

To my ears, the õ of the first three words is slightly more relaxed and open than the õõ of the last two words.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2015-01-18, 18:19

I listened to the examples and for me, mõrv and sõber sounded as if they were pronounced with ö rather than õ! :D But I don't hear any difference between põud and mõõk or põõsas.

I read from Wikipedia that õ can be "mid back, close back, or mid central". Does this happen in certain contexts or is it just up to the speaker which one they'll use? Is there any dialectal variation? I know that some dialects lack õ, but for example my teacher's õ sounds like Russian Ы to me. Is there a dialect with Ы-like õ or is that one possible (standard) pronunciation, too?

I'd also like to ask about -gi. If anyone happens to speak Finnish / know the answer, is it used like Finnish -kin? For example
minäkin lähden - I'll go, too
minä lähdenkin - I changed my mind, I'll go / but I go to X (and you don't)
native:  (fi)
speaks more or less fluently:  (en)
can talk about weird topics in:  (sv)
learning process started:  (ru) &  (et)


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