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Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian - Page 31 - UniLang

Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

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ainurakne
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2012-08-01, 10:34

You are welcome :D

I forgot to mention suu in the second group:
  • suu(mouth): suhu
But I have never heard anyone using the short illative of other u-words like puu(tree) and luu(bone).


There is also this group of käsi type words, like:
  • käsi(hand, arm) - käe - kätt: kätte
  • vesi(water) - vee - vett: vette
  • susi(wolf) - soe - sutt: sutte
This is one of those word groups where sse-illative is hardly ever used (in singular, I mean; plural uses still -sse).
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Loiks » 2012-08-11, 17:14

I wonder if any (Northern) Estonian has ever used the word sutte :) (The word usually used for a wolf is hunt, susi is more Southern Estonian.) But, hey, what do you put 'into the wolf'? Maybe a bullet.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2012-08-11, 21:27

Loiks wrote:I wonder if any (Northern) Estonian has ever used the word sutte :) (The word usually used for a wolf is hunt, susi is more Southern Estonian.) But, hey, what do you put 'into the wolf'? Maybe a bullet.
One example I could think of is 'Mis see sutte puutub?' ('Mis soel sellega pistmist on?' / 'Mis sel soega pistmist on?' = What's that got to do with a/the wolf?).
But yeah, you're right - a couple of months ago I didn't even know how to declinate the word 'susi' correctly :oops:
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby zeme » 2012-09-19, 11:50

I'm always mixing mis, see, missugune, and milline. They translate to what/which/that, but sets them apart?
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2012-09-19, 14:27

zeme wrote:I'm always mixing mis, see, missugune, and milline. They translate to what/which/that, but sets them apart?

Mis? - what? (nominative case):
  • Question what?: Mis see on? (what is it?)
    NB: declenation, e.g Mida sa teed? (what are you doing? - partitive case)
  • Relative which or that: Auto, mis seisab maja ees, on minu oma. (The car which/that is standing in front of the house is mine)
    NB: declenation, e.g Auto, mille sa sodiks sõitsid, on minu oma. (The car which/that you crashed is mine. - genitive case)

See - it, this (nominative case):
  • Actually the difference between it and this is quite blurry, but if see is in front of a noun (the same way as an adjective would be) then it is quite definately this: See auto on punane. (This car is red.)
    NB: declenation, e.g Ma näen seda. (I see it/this, I am seeing it/this - partitive), Ma panin selle ära (I put it/this away - genitive)
  • see is usually also used for that, at least in Northern-Estonia, although there actually is a specific word for that: too - it, that

Milline?:
  • The answer to this question is an adjective (in that case milline? = missugune?) - in English it would be maybe what kind of?: Q: Milline auto sul on? (What kind of car do you have? / What does your car look like?), A: Suur ja punane. (Big and red.)
    NB: declenation, e.g Millist autot sa tahaksid? (What kind of car would you want? - partitive case)
    The answer to this question can be also selline or seesugune: Q: Milline see on? (What does it look like?), A: Selline. (~ Like that.)
  • It can also mean: which one?, usually followed by neist/nendest(of them): e.g there are bunch of stuff on the table and you ask: Milline (neist) minu oma on? (Which one (of them) is mine?)
    EDIT: actually missugune (neist)? can also mean which one of them?
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Lumilintu » 2012-09-29, 7:31

ainurakne wrote:See - it, this (nominative case):
[...]
see is usually also used for that, at least in Northern-Estonia, although there actually is a specific word for that: too - it, that


Huh, I thought see and too mean exactly the same, only that one is used in Northern and the other one in Southern Estonia?

Olen ise ka märganud, et kasutan viimasel ajal üsna tihti sõna too... Eks see tuleneb ka sellest, et nüüd Lõunas elan, enne siia kolimist tundus too sõna ( :D ) mulle alati kuidagi imeliku või isegi võõrana.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2012-09-29, 14:38

I guess South-Estonian too is exactly the same as North-Estonian see. But in formal language one can do this:
  • See siin ja see seal. -> See ja too.
There is also a difference between words like seekord (this time, now) and tookord (some time in the past, before).
And ofcourse, the word toona (synonymuous to tookord) which (to me) seems to be an archaic essive form of too.

Need, which is plural of see, has also that form: nood
  • need, nende, neid -> nood, nonde, noid

Ma ise ei käi just eriti tihti Lõuna-Eestis (kuigi aastaid tagasi elasin ma suviti päris Tartu kõrval), seega ei ole ma tolle kasutamist selle asemel eriti tähele pannud.
Aga kuidas on seal lood nonde kasutamisega nende asemel? :lol:
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Arvi » 2012-09-29, 15:06

Lumilintu wrote:Huh, I thought see and too mean exactly the same, only that one is used in Northern and the other one in Southern Estonia?

Vähemalt Võrumaal see = tuu.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2012-09-29, 22:52

Arvi wrote:Vähemalt Võrumaal see = tuu.
Võib olla küll kõnekeeles, aga ametlikus Võro keeles tundub asi veidi teistmoodi olevat:
  • seo - vastab soomekeelsele sõnale se (it)
  • taa - vastab soomekeelsele sõnale tämä (this)
  • tuu - vastab soomekeelsele sõnale tuo (that)
Eesti keeles tämä näikse olevat muutunud temaks, seega selle ja tolle tähendus on veidi laienenud.


Maybe in colloquial language, but in official Võro language it seems to be a bit different:
  • seo - corresponds to Finnish se (it)
  • taa - corresponds to Finnish tämä (this)
  • tuu - corresponds to Finnish tuo (that)
In Estonian tämä (this) seems to have changed to tema (he/she), and so the meanings of see and too have broadened (see - it, this; too - it, that).
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Loiks » 2012-10-14, 13:29

ainurakne wrote:
Arvi wrote:Vähemalt Võrumaal see = tuu.
Võib olla küll kõnekeeles, aga ametlikus Võro keeles tundub asi veidi teistmoodi olevat:
  • seo - vastab soomekeelsele sõnale se (it)
  • taa - vastab soomekeelsele sõnale tämä (this)
  • tuu - vastab soomekeelsele sõnale tuo (that)
Eesti keeles tämä näikse olevat muutunud temaks, seega selle ja tolle tähendus on veidi laienenud.


Maybe in colloquial language, but in official Võro language it seems to be a bit different:
  • seo - corresponds to Finnish se (it)
  • taa - corresponds to Finnish tämä (this)
  • tuu - corresponds to Finnish tuo (that)
In Estonian tämä (this) seems to have changed to tema (he/she), and so the meanings of see and too have broadened (see - it, this; too - it, that).


Tämä peaks olema meie tema, soomlased on ilmselt selle asendanud skandinaavia han'iga, või on see hoopis kuidagi vastupidi?

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2012-10-14, 17:22

Loiks wrote:Tämä peaks olema meie tema, soomlased on ilmselt selle asendanud skandinaavia han'iga, või on see hoopis kuidagi vastupidi?
Ega ausalt öeldes ei oska öeldagi kumba pidi see asi tekkinud või arenenud on, aga igal juhul tundub soomekeelse tämä praegune tähendus olevat üsna vana - näiteks sõna 'siin' põhineb soome keeles tämäl: täällä ja tässä; samas kui sõna siinä tähendus peaks olema pigem nagu 'selles'.
Mis on aga eriti huvitav, on see, et eesti keeles nii tavaline sõna 'täna' tundub olevat hoopiski soomekeelne tämä olevas käändes: tänä päivänä.

Samas, võru keeles tunduvad tähenduse poolest olevat olemas mõlemad: nii soomekeelse tämä kui ka eestikeelse tema vasted - vastavalt siis taa ning timä/tiä/tä(ä). Nii et mine võta kinni, mis kõige varem tekkinud on või mis millest välja kujunenud.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Loiks » 2012-10-21, 10:52

Kas soome tänä päivänä ei või olla lühenenud tämänä päivänä, kas Lõuna-Eestis pole ka mitte tämpä või midagi taolist? Soome kõnekeeles lüheneb sõna nagu eesti keeleski, tämä'st jääb mingi ja siis ongi võimalik ja paistab, et nii ongi, et sinna on käändelõppe lisatud.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2012-10-24, 7:19

Täitsa võimalik.

Lõuna-Eesti keeltest näiteks võru keeles on see muidu täämbä. Synaraamat on päris hea koht, kust saab huvi korral võrukeelseid sõnu järele vaadata.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Virankannos » 2012-11-17, 10:30

Eesti sõna tema kasutus ainsuse kolmanda isiku tähenduses on tekkinud hiljem, ehk pärast seda kui eesti keel on lahkunud läänemeresoome algkeelest. See erijoon esineb ainult lõunapoolsetes läänemeresoome keeltes, nt eesti, vadja ja liivi keeles. Soome sõna hän on uurali algkeelest pärit. See, et hän sarnaneb skandinaavia keelte personaalpronoomenitega, on paljas juhus.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Aleco » 2012-12-01, 1:22

Does anyone know where I could read up on the differences between the two infinitive endings?
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2012-12-01, 11:25

Aleco wrote:Does anyone know where I could read up on the differences between the two infinitive endings?
The only materials in English that come into my mind are the ones made by corcaighist in his Estonian language blog: -ma & -da. I think he has done a wonderful job describing them.

But basically the so called -ma infinitive is actually the illative form of the verb (belongs in the same group with its less frequently used counterparts: inessive -mas and elative -mast), so it is usually used when there is somekind of movement towards some action or some action began, is about to begin or will begin:
  • hakkasin sööma ~ I started to eat, began eating
  • õpin lugema - I am learning to read / I will learn to read
  • lähen jooksma ~ I am going / will go running / ... to run
And the so called -da infinitive is the actual infinitive. In Finnish I have sometimes heard it being called the partitive form of the verb:
  • tahan sööki/toitu, jooki (I want food, drink - partitive case) -> tahan süüa, juua (I want to eat, to drink - da-infinitive)
  • armastan raamatuid (I love books - partitive case) -> armastan lugeda (I love to read - da-infinitive)

But of course there are probably all kinds of exceptions - which is so not exceptional in Estonian :lol:
Sorry, I couldn't help more, but I don't remember learning any rules about it in school, so for me it's all just using them the same way as I have heard them my entire life.

If you are looking for how to form them, then maybe my posts about some not very simple verb groups are of some help. These posts can be found in hashi's Estonian thread (starts from the end of the first page).
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2012-12-02, 11:41

I read a bit about infinite forms (the source is unfortunately in Estonian) and the system of all the infinitives seems to be quite complicated:

There are actually three types of infinite forms:
  • tegevusnimed (~action names): da-tegevusnimi (da-infinitive), vat-tegevusnimi (vat-infinitive) and ma-tegevusnimi (ma-supine) + its counterparts: -mas, -mast, -maks, -mata and this weird -tama, which seems to be passive -ma
  • kesksõnad (participles), for example -v (present participle), -nud (past participle), -tav (passive -v) and -tud (passive -nud)
  • des-form - I guess it's called gerund
But I guess you meant ma- and da-infinitives only, then according to this the simplified view on using ma- and da-infinitives is something like this:
  • verbs that indicate movement and development + MA: ma lähen, hakkan, õpin ja õpetan õmblema (I go, begin/start, learn and teach to sew)
  • emotional and modal verbs + DA: ma armastan, mulle meeldib, ma oskan, saan, suudan, võin lugeda (I love, like, can(know how to), am able to, may/can/am allowed to read)
  • on + adjective = DA: blogisid on huvitav lugeda (it is interesting to read blogs)

You can also ask about any specific examples in the Estonian sources, that I provided. I just didn't want to put them all here :roll:


EDIT: the verb saama is actually a bit tricky, since it has at least three meanings:
  • to can - for example: saan teha (I can do (it)) - requires da-infinitive
  • to get - in a sense that you are given something: sain kingituse (I got a present) = mulle anti kingitus (I was given a present)
  • 3rd meaning can be also translated as get, but it's more like to be let, to be allowed, to be able to (thanks to or because of someone/something): sain minema (I got away), saan hakkama (I will be able to do it, I can manage) - requires ma-infinitive
One more example about the last one:
sain rajale - I got onto the track (running track, race track, etc...) = I was let onto the track, I was allowed to go onto the track ~>
sain jooksma - I got to start running, I was let (onto the track) to run, I was allowed to run / start running (an important part is that thanks to or because of smth I was able to START running, not just run; sain joosta would be just I got to run, I was able/let/allowed to run)

EDIT2: Hmm, actually the last example may even be a contracted form, since you can add a da-infinitive there (in that case saama means definately can/to be able to):
  • sain hakata jooksma (I could(can past?) start running / I was able to start running)
  • sain minna jooksma (I could go running / I was able to go running)
In these examples hakata/minna is DA because saama(can) requires da-infinitive and jooksma is MA because hakkama/minema requires ma-infinitive :silly:
Last edited by ainurakne on 2012-12-02, 14:31, edited 1 time in total.
Eesti keel (et) native, English (en) I can manage, Suomi (fi) trying to learn, Pусский (ru)&Deutsch (de) unfortunately, slowly fading away

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Aleco
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Aleco » 2012-12-02, 14:24

Your posts always seem to feature, quite possibly, the most covering and lucid explanations that can be found on Unilang! Thank you so much! :praise:
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ainurakne
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2012-12-02, 14:34

Aleco wrote:Your posts always seem to feature, quite possibly, the most covering and lucid explanations that can be found on Unilang! Thank you so much! :praise:
Ha-haa, thanks :D

Also, I added an edit after you had responded.
Eesti keel (et) native, English (en) I can manage, Suomi (fi) trying to learn, Pусский (ru)&Deutsch (de) unfortunately, slowly fading away

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lumiel
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby lumiel » 2012-12-30, 11:28

Hi everyone! Here's a link to a recording where I read the first article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in Estonian. Any tips what I could focus on in terms of my accent? My accent is still extremely Finnish, IMHO... Am I overdoing my õs?
[flag]fi[/flag] [flag]sme[/flag] [flag]et[/flag] [flag]fr[/flag] [flag]fr-qc[/flag]
Kas siis selle maa keel
laulutuules ei või
taevani tõustes üles
igavikku omale otsida?


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