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Dunbots' Basque Questions - Page 2 - UniLang

Dunbots' Basque Questions

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2010-11-05, 23:55

Kaixo Dunbots,

heriotza baino txiki txikiago den


The translation would be:
".... which is much smaller than death"

Note a typical basque construction: the repetition of the adjective to intensify it. I guess this resource is used in a lot of languages, but in basque it is used very frequently, also in syntactic situations in which is certain uncommon in other languages, as the very example that you bring up: a comparison. I don't know if an english speaking person would say "... small-smaller than death" instead of "much smaller than death". (Well, actually I don't know how frequently one would use the expression "smaller than death" at all...)


"argitasupean" breaks down into
argi-tasu-pe-a-n

Let' us take a look on the separate elements:
"argi": light (as adjective)
"tasu(n)": a suffix that indicates "quality"
for instance: "zuzen" means "right". "Zuzentasuna" is the quality of what is right: "justice"
"pe": it's the phonetic adaption of "behe", meaning "under"
a: the article
n: the inesive case: Non

so, all together: "argitasupean" -> "under the light"

... and yes: Urtz is a great singer :)

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Dunbots » 2010-11-06, 0:12

After I posted my question about that sentence, I figured that "txiki" was just being reduplicated, so a translation I tried to get was pretty close, but yours is better. As for in English, I can't think of any time we would reduplicate a word like that, but you could ask on the English forum here to hear from people that know more about English. You're right that we wouldn't use "smaller than death", but the whole song "Bizitzarekin Dantzan" makes no sense at all when translated, it only makes sense in Basque. :lol:

As for "argitasupean", I never would've figured out what "-pe-" meant. :shock:

Eskerrik asko laguntzengatik!

What about the meaning and breaking down of "daudenen"? I've seen it in two songs, this and Urrutitik Kantu, but I'm not sure what it means.
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2010-11-10, 15:41

Hi Dunbots,

ok, here comes the decomposition of the word:

daudenen:

daude: third person of plural of egon
-N-: introduces a relative relative
-EN: plural of the genitive case (Noren)

so... do you see it better now?

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Dunbots » 2010-11-10, 20:43

That does help. Actually, that's exactly what I thought it was, but I second-guessed myself, and thought that it didn't make sense, putting a case on a verb. I get it now. :) Mila esker.
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2010-11-11, 10:31

yes, it is difficult. So many letters, and we have the -N- sound fulfilling two different roles in the same word.

But I see you're getting better and better with the Basque grammar... That's impressive. Which method are you using? Is it good?

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Dunbots » 2010-11-11, 18:11

Thanks. :D I'm using the online course here. You'll have to sign up if you want to see what it's like, but it's free. It's a really great course, it teaches a lot over the whole course, and there are lots of exercises to get practice with the grammar and words. I like it a lot; it's probably the best course out there for Basque.

If anyone else reads this thread: I'd recommend this course to anyone that speaks Spanish or English (the course is available in both) and wants to speak Basque well. There are 60 lessons, with each lesson teaching a new point of grammar, and having many exercises to help practice and remember the grammar and vocabulary. The only problem with it is that there isn't much in the way of audio recordings early on, but it seems that in the second half of the course there is quite a bit to listen to. It's extremely useful on my journey to become fluent in Basque. 8-)
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Dunbots » 2010-11-18, 7:50

I'll post this here since I don't have time to continue the Hurrengo Laguna game right now.

arabarra wrote:ei, I see you're going to more and difficult constructions. Things are progressing, hm?

Yes, things are progressing well. I'm enjoying Basque a lot. :)

In any case, I'm not certain what you mean... The correct construction, if I understood it right:

"ordenaigailua niretzat erosi nuen orain dela bi urte".


I wanted to say "I built a computer for myself 2 years ago."

Are "joan den urte/aste/hil(abete)" as "last year/week/month" correct?


I tried translating a sentence in the course I'm using for fun, and I want to see if I translated it well.

Ikasgai honetan, maiztasunez egiten dituzun ekintzak adierazten ikasiko duzu.

My translation is "In this lesson, you will learn [how] to state actions that you do frequently/habitually." Is this correct? I'm not meant to understand it all yet really, but I thought I could do it. :)
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby murdoch » 2010-12-28, 23:24

Hi,
Dunbots wrote:
I wanted to say "I built a computer for myself 2 years ago."

For "[amount of time] ago", you can say "Orain dela [amount of time]", "Orain [amount of time]" or "Duela [amount of time]".

In Batua, I think the strictly correct way to say "for myself" would be "neure buruarenzat". But "niretzat" or "neuretzat" (intensive form) by themselves seem more natural to me. It's also possible to say "niretzako [thing]". For example "niretzako ordenagailua" = (literally) "the for-me computer".

So, my non-native suggested translation is:

"Duela bi urte, niretzako ordenagailu bat egin/eraiki/muntatu nuen".

But wait for other opinions (if you're still bothered :D).

Dunbots wrote:Are "joan den urtean/astean/hil(abetean)" as "last year/week/month" correct?

Yes. You can also say "aurreko urtean, astean, hilean". Don't forget the inessive (or whatever it's called) case if you're talking about something that happened during that time.

Dunbots wrote: Ikasgai honetan, maiztasunez egiten dituzun ekintzak adierazten ikasiko duzu.
My translation is "In this lesson, you will learn [how] to state actions that you do frequently/habitually." Is this correct? I'm not meant to understand it all yet really, but I thought I could do it. :)

Yes, it's correct :).

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-06, 18:42

This is an account I made years ago, so instead of making a new thread I thought I'd revive this old one.

Speaking of things that I still have to learn in Basque, there is one thing, present participles, that I've never understood.

Is there any difference between these two sentences?

Pertsona nagusi guztiak lehenago haur izanak dira.
*Pertsona nagusi guztiak lehenago haurrak izan dira.


The first comes from the preface of Printze Txikia, and the second is a hypothetical sentence that I think would have the same or similar meaning. I've never understood when to use these present participles (izanak) nor do I know if they change the meaning of anything in any way.

In the first sentence, are "haur" and "izanak" treated as one noun phrase, or separately?

Zu, arabarra, nik galdegiten dizudala uste dut. :)
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-06, 19:22

Hi Lowena,

nope, they're not exactly the same. Let's see if I can explain the difference.

In a normal, neutral conversation, you'd go for the option:

"Pertsona nagusi guztiak lehenago haurrak izan dira."

so your guess was correct.

However, the other way has an extra load: it adds the idea of "... but today no longer". sometimes, it can even add some evocative power, a certain degree of subjectivity, something like " ... but today not any longer any more... sigh... ". Attention, I'm not saying that the "haur izanak dira" form always conveys this "nostalgy" load, but this form does the job much better than the very neutral "haurrak izan dira".


Zu, arabarra, nik galdegiten dizudala uste dut.


better "Aizu, arabarra..." :-)

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-06, 20:05

So using the present participle would be different than saying something like

"Pertsona nagusi guztiak lehenago haurrak izaten ziren"

I guess the above sentence would be more explicit than saying "...haur izanak dira" possibly?

Should "aizu" really be used there? I was using your name as a vocative, like "I guess that I'm asking you, arabarra." Would it have been better to say "Zu zara, arabarra, galdegiten dizudana"?
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-07, 11:49

"Pertsona nagusi guztiak lehenago haurrak izaten ziren"

I guess the above sentence would be more explicit than saying "...haur izanak dira" possibly?


In principle, and looking at the syntax, well yes, but "izaten ziren" sounds somehow funny. "Pertsona nagusi guztiak lehenago haurrak ziren" is already enough.


Should "aizu" really be used there? I was using your name as a vocative, like "I guess that I'm asking you, arabarra." Would it have been better to say "Zu zara, arabarra, galdegiten dizudana"?


yep. "zu" is also acceptable, but the vocative "prefers" the form "aizu" (a contraction of "adi(tu) ezazu", i.e. the imperative form of "listen")

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-07, 11:49

"Pertsona nagusi guztiak lehenago haurrak izaten ziren"

I guess the above sentence would be more explicit than saying "...haur izanak dira" possibly?


In principle, and looking at the syntax, well yes, but "izaten ziren" sounds somehow funny. "Pertsona nagusi guztiak lehenago haurrak ziren" is already enough.


Should "aizu" really be used there? I was using your name as a vocative, like "I guess that I'm asking you, arabarra." Would it have been better to say "Zu zara, arabarra, galdegiten dizudana"?


yep. "zu" is also acceptable, but the vocative "prefers" the form "aizu" (a contraction of "adi(tu) ezazu", i.e. the imperative form of "listen")

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-07, 17:42

arabarra wrote:In principle, and looking at the syntax, well yes, but "izaten ziren" sounds somehow funny. "Pertsona nagusi guztiak lehenago haurrak ziren" is already enough.

"Izaten ziren" would be the past habitual, like "All adults used to be kids before". But yes, it's probably better to just say "haurrak ziren" or "haur izanak dira".


yep. "zu" is also acceptable, but the vocative "prefers" the form "aizu" (a contraction of "adi(tu) ezazu", i.e. the imperative form of "listen")

I never knew the etymology of "aizu" and didn't know really how to use it and similar words. Mila esker! :)

How would you say "multilingually" in Basque? The best I could come up with was "era/modu eleanitzean". Does that work?
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-08, 8:59

How would you say "multilingually" in Basque? The best I could come up with was "era/modu eleanitzean". Does that work?


it does (maybe use case Zerez rather than Zertan). In any case, it sounds kinda robotic... Probably depends on the sentence, but I guess Basque would avoid such a direct translation of the adverb. The problem I see to insert this in a real sentence is that "era/modu" means "way of doing something", and this sense is already transmitted by the case "zerez", so the combination of both sounds overconstructed.


Which kind of sentence do you have in mind?

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-08, 9:07

arabarra wrote:
How would you say "multilingually" in Basque? The best I could come up with was "era/modu eleanitzean". Does that work?


it does (maybe use case Zerez rather than Zertan). In any case, it sounds kinda robotic... Probably depends on the sentence, but I guess Basque would avoid such a direct translation of the adverb. The problem I see to insert this in a real sentence is that "era/modu" means "way of doing something", and this sense is already transmitted by the case "zerez", so the combination of both sounds overconstructed.


Which kind of sentence do you have in mind?

Well, I was wondering about it while posting in the "Please post your message bilingually!" thread, and I was trying to say that the title should say "multilingually" instead of "bilingually", since most people don't use just two languages. The only other way to say it that I could think of was "asko hizkuntzez", but that doesn't sound right. Or is it?
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-08, 11:27

The only other way to say it that I could think of was "asko hizkuntzez", but that doesn't sound right. Or is it?


No, it's not. "Asko" goes always after the noun. Other than that, it also conveys a sense of abundance. Asko means "many" not in the sense of "several", but in the sense of "not just a few". Thus,
"idatzazu zure mezua hizkuntz askoz"
sounds rather like "write your message in a lot of languages"

The official translation of multilingual is (I guess) eleaniztun, so you could go with:

"mesedez mezu eleaniztunak idatzi hari honetan"

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-08, 20:45

OK, thanks, arabarra. :) One thing I've always disliked a bit about Basque is how difficult it is to create adverbs. In a language like German, or even English, it's much easier.
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Lauren
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-13, 20:29

Is avoidance of possessive pronouns, and them being replaced by dative constructions, really that common in everyday speech? I see a lot - and my grammar book says it - that Basque speakers have somewhat of a disapproval of using possessive pronouns. For example, one could say:

Nire ilea moztu duzu. or
Ilea moztu didazu.

For "You cut my hair." Does the first one sound odd at all, or would most find it equivalent to the second? If they aren't equivalent, what would be the differences between them?
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arabarra
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-13, 21:50

Nire ilea moztu duzu. or
Ilea moztu didazu.


No, there are not quite the same. The "neutral" way would be indeed "ilea moztu didazu". If you say "nire ilea moztu duzu", you possibly want to stress whose hair it was. Perhaps the english translation should be "the hair you cut was mine!" rather than "you cut my hair..."


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