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UniLang • New members - Page 7
Page 7 of 8

Re: Assimilation in Polish

Posted: 2008-07-01, 14:34
by Qrczak
0stsee wrote:The sound is present in several languages including English, like in the word measure.


It’s not quite the same sound. Polish distinguishes /ʐ/ and /ʑ/; English /ʒ/ is somewhat between them.

0stsee wrote:What I still need to learn is the "ubezdźwięcznienie", which I guess means something like assimilation. :?:


It is one particular case of assimilation: making unvoiced.

dźwięk — sound
dźwięczny — voiced
bezdźwięczny — unvoiced
ubezdźwięcznić (rarely used) — to make unvoiced
ubezdźwięcznienie — making unvoiced

Posted: 2008-07-01, 15:03
by 0stsee
Dzie´kuje´ Qrczak!

Re: Assimilation in Polish

Posted: 2008-07-02, 0:45
by jakc
Qrczak wrote:It’s not quite the same sound. Polish distinguishes /ʐ/ and /ʑ/; English /ʒ/ is somewhat between them.

That's right. The 's' sound in measure is more how the letter ź is pronounced. Ż is 'harder' sounding I suppose. Is 'ż' a uniquely Polish sound? I've never come across it in any other languages. I wonder how it was created... :wink:

Just a question 0stsee, do you want to display Polish accents in your post? That's not to suggest you can't do what you're already doing because we'll understand you anyway but would you like to know how the accents are transposed into posts or are you fine the way you are?

Polish characters

Posted: 2008-07-02, 8:39
by 0stsee
Hej Jakc!

I'd like to. I don't have much problem using a "normal PC keyboard", but the Alt+... doesn't work on my laptop keyboard, unfortunately.

You have any good alternative?

Re: Assimilation in Polish

Posted: 2008-07-02, 9:28
by Kuba
jakc wrote:Is 'ż' a uniquely Polish sound? I've never come across it in any other languages. I wonder how it was created... :wink:

No, it's not uniquely Polish. It is also found in Belorusian and Russian; it's unvoiced counterpart is an phoneme of many Indian languages. From a historical perspective, ż evolved in Slavic languages in Proto-Slavic times from a palatalised [g] (maybe via [dʒ]) - that process is called "first (regressive) palatalisation" in Slavic studies. (And as you probably know, the Slavic people didn't stop with that palatalisation. :))

Re: Polish characters

Posted: 2008-07-02, 9:29
by Kuba
0stsee wrote:Hej Jakc!

I'd like to. I don't have much problem using a "normal PC keyboard", but the Alt+... doesn't work on my laptop keyboard, unfortunately.

You have any good alternative?

Click on the "insert special characters" link left of the text typing box (right above the emoticons), select "Polish" and start typing. ;)
Of course it's a bit complicated, but much better than typing in unicode letters...

Posted: 2008-07-02, 9:39
by 0stsee
Aha!!
OMG, all of these years.. :oops:

Dziękuję!

Posted: 2008-07-02, 9:48
by Kuba
Proszę bardzo! :D

Re: Assimilation in Polish

Posted: 2008-07-02, 10:35
by Qrczak
Kuba wrote:From a historical perspective, ż evolved in Slavic languages in Proto-Slavic times from a palatalised [g]

Also from zj, e.g. wiązać — wiąże.

Re: Polish characters

Posted: 2008-07-02, 12:06
by jakc
Kuba wrote:
jakc wrote:Is 'ż' a uniquely Polish sound? I've never come across it in any other languages. I wonder how it was created... :wink:

No, it's not uniquely Polish. It is also found in Belorusian and Russian; it's unvoiced counterpart is an phoneme of many Indian languages. From a historical perspective, ż evolved in Slavic languages in Proto-Slavic times from a palatalised [g] (maybe via [dʒ]) - that process is called "first (regressive) palatalisation" in Slavic studies. (And as you probably know, the Slavic people didn't stop with that palatalisation. :))

Russian and Belorussian? Really? I thought those were far too soft sounding for a letter like that! Well what d'ya know! :wink: Dziękuje Kuba! ;)


Kuba wrote: but much better than typing in unicode letters...

Here, here! :wink: There are times when I love my little macbook very much! :P The special characters feature is very good too. :D

Re: Polish characters

Posted: 2008-07-02, 13:32
by voron
jakc wrote:Russian and Belorussian? Really? I thought those were far too soft sounding for a letter like that!

What do you mean? Polish palatalisation is extreme, i.e. it sounds softer by default.

Re: Polish characters

Posted: 2008-07-02, 15:40
by 0stsee
voron wrote:
jakc wrote:Russian and Belorussian? Really? I thought those were far too soft sounding for a letter like that!

What do you mean? Polish palatalisation is extreme, i.e. it sounds softer by default.

You're right.
Is Polish the "softest" Slavic language?

Posted: 2008-07-02, 15:44
by Qrczak
It depends what do you mean. Polish palatal consonants might be quite soft, but in Russian they occur more often.

Polish vs. Russian

Posted: 2008-07-02, 16:08
by 0stsee
Hmmm.. somehow Polish sounds "softer" to me. Probably it also has to do with the intonation or general volume. :hmm:

Posted: 2008-07-02, 18:58
by Qrczak
I don’t know. For me Russian is softer, e.g. e always palatizes the previous consonant (except for a few consonants), and while ś, ź, ć, dź sound softer than their Russian counterparts, ль is softer than l, ч is softer than cz,рь is softer than rz, and Russian foreign words sometimes have и where Polish ones have y, e.g. демократическийdemokratyczny.

Re: Polish characters

Posted: 2008-07-02, 23:48
by jakc
voron wrote:
jakc wrote:Russian and Belorussian? Really? I thought those were far too soft sounding for a letter like that!

What do you mean? Polish palatalisation is extreme, i.e. it sounds softer by default.

That may be true but for me Russian sounds very soft and malleable (fluffy, maybe? Everything rolls together when you say it). Maybe it's as Qrczak says, the frequency of palatalised consonants in Russian is much greater than in Polish. In any case I've always had the impression that Russian is a soft language. Though, I'm learning very different new things every day here. It's all very interesting! :wink: Thanks!

edit: Just looking at 0stsee last post. I figure I might mean ‘soft’ in a different context. For me, Russian has the same degree of ‘softnesś as French does in the west. It's the way in which the letters run together when you say them. I know that I'm always stumbling over ‘sz' and cz' and ‘rz' when I read because they're such different sounds to the letters that surround them. Last night I was reading the ‘Tygodnik Polski’ with my father and I tried to pronounce: ‘Wileńszczyzna and it sounds very jagged and uncomfortable to pronounce: ‘Wileń-sz-czy-zna. I suppose that's lack of practice though. Although languages such as Welsh (and French?) eliminate this sort of harshness with mutations, certain nouns change consonants to ease this jaggedness. But learning the mutations itself is a pain. :P There's no 'easy' way I suppose. Indonesian is brilliant though...

Re: Polish characters

Posted: 2008-07-03, 12:10
by 0stsee
jakc wrote:Indonesian is brilliant though...

In which way?

Re: Polish characters

Posted: 2008-07-04, 0:30
by jakc
0stsee wrote:
jakc wrote:Indonesian is brilliant though...

In which way?

It's a very phonetic language and it also has a very simple structure. For example to make a noun plural you just repeat it twice. Oh so very brilliant. :wink:

Re: Polish characters

Posted: 2008-07-04, 3:10
by 0stsee
jakc wrote:It's a very phonetic language and it also has a very simple structure. For example to make a noun plural you just repeat it twice. Oh so very brilliant. :wink:

And only when there's no other plural indicator in the sentence.

For example in Indonesian we say something like:
one child
two child
three child
several child
many child
etc. :)

Re: New members

Posted: 2009-12-21, 14:17
by Kristof
Cześć! :D

nazywam się Christophe i mam trzydzieści lat. Jestem europejskim wolontariuszem (EVS) w Polsce od marca 2009, w Białymstoku. Uczę się polskiego ale nie mam dużo okazji ćwiczyć, bo pracuję w organizacji w które mówi się w esperanto.

Szukam osób aby rożmawiać po polsku, o jakiegoś temacie. Możecie kontaktować ż mną w tego forum, albo wysłać wiadomość. Mój mail : ch.chazarein (dodać małpę i „gmail.com").

Mam nadzieję że będę otrzymywać wiadomości :)
Do zobaczenia!