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Bokmal vs Nynorsk - Page 2 - UniLang

Bokmal vs Nynorsk

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Re: Nynorsk

Postby 0stsee » 2006-10-14, 18:20

Gormur wrote:
0stsee wrote:Btw, some basic things can really be confusing, f.ex. the word "de" means "they" in Bokmål and "you" in Nynorsk.


De (with a capital d) is the formal address of you, which is actually bokmål; it is rather old-fashioned now, however. De (with a lower-case d) is used in nynorsk, however. It is the plural form of you. Dykk is more prevalent in written form, though.

I use de (it's in my dialect) as the plural you, but people often seem to think I'm using De so now I usually have to use dere, dykk, or dokker (dialect word) to be understood.



I thought the nominative plural you in Nynorsk is "de" and as an object it's "dykk". Perhaps I just read it wrong.


What you said with dokker confirms my observation yesterday as I watched the movie "Elling". The one guy from the Oslo kommune kept on saying dokk/e/r for you in plural.

It's so hard for me to find Norwegian movies here in Rostock. There are much more Swedish or Danish movies, but until now, I've only found two Norwegian. :roll: Na ja..


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Postby óðinn » 2006-10-19, 15:36

Not only in Rostock, overall swedish and danish movies are more common than norwegian ones maybe the norwegians have adepted finally after a millenia of east nordic influence and migrated to danish and swedish when it comes to entertainment. :lol:

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Postby Rounin » 2006-10-19, 21:19

I would actually guess most movies here are from the United States. Since Norway has a very small population and producs few movies, really good Norwegian movies are few and far between. If you use binary, you might even be able to count them on one hand! (One hand takes you to 15, two hands to 1023. May cause mild pain.)

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Postby Gormur » 2006-10-20, 0:05

None of them are good. :(
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

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Re: Nynorsk

Postby selters » 2006-10-20, 11:03

0stsee wrote:I thought the nominative plural you in Nynorsk is "de" and as an object it's "dykk". Perhaps I just read it wrong.


Du har rett i det.

Personlige pronomener på bokmål:

Entall:

1. pers.: jeg - meg
2. pers.: du - deg
3. pers.: han - ham
3. pers.: hun - henne
3. pers.: det - det/den - den

Flertall:

1. pers.: vi - oss
2. pers.: dere - dere
3. pers.: de - dem
Høflig: De - Dem (gammeldags)

Personlege pronomen på nynorsk:

Eintal:

eg - meg
du - deg
han - han/honom
ho - henne/hennar
det - det, den - den

Fleirtal

vi/me - oss
de - dykk/dykkar
dei - dei
Høfleg: De - Dykk/Dykkar (gammaldags)

Bra filmer på norsk: Elling, Uno, Uro (kommer ikke på flere nå :()

Ellers er disse klippene jævli artige:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%C3%A5pen+post

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=team+antonsen

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Postby Rounin » 2006-10-20, 19:16

Jeg syntes Gymnaslærer Pedersen var ganske OK, men det er slett ikke sikkert alle ville like den...

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Postby Mulder-21 » 2006-10-21, 11:05

Hunef wrote:
wilsonsamm wrote:
Hunef wrote:
selters wrote:Also, when the research was done to create the vocabulary of Nynorsk, my region (Østlandet) was to a large extent left out for no apparent reason.

Yes, this is the great flaw of Nynorsk. It is supposed to be the native norwegian language, and therefore it should have features from all norwegian dialects. >snip!<


Det mener jeg er bare fordi Bokmål var mye mer populært i Østlandet, og fordi Dansk hadde en større innflytelse der.

Så vidt jeg vet, reiste Ivar Aasen på tvers av Norge, fra Vest til Øst, og tok derfor med Østlandsdialektene. Formene "Kven, Kvifor" osv. fant han i større bruk, derfor var det de som ble med i skriftspråket.

[På svensk:] Den enda specifika östlandsformen jag kan hitta i nynorska är att man använder '-t' i bestämd form neutrum: 'huset', 'bordet' etc. (Här borde man egentligen ha haft '-d' eller ingen konsonant alls.)


Ella kanska enntá -ð? Ð hevur jú fornorðafrøðina aftanfyri seg. Men eftirsum trønderskt longu hevur tað og ikki er so kent ella væl umtókt, so liggur svarið nokk longu har.
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Postby Hunef » 2006-10-22, 21:11

Mulder-21 wrote:
Hunef wrote:
wilsonsamm wrote:
Hunef wrote:
selters wrote:Also, when the research was done to create the vocabulary of Nynorsk, my region (Østlandet) was to a large extent left out for no apparent reason.

Yes, this is the great flaw of Nynorsk. It is supposed to be the native norwegian language, and therefore it should have features from all norwegian dialects. >snip!<


Det mener jeg er bare fordi Bokmål var mye mer populært i Østlandet, og fordi Dansk hadde en større innflytelse der.

Så vidt jeg vet, reiste Ivar Aasen på tvers av Norge, fra Vest til Øst, og tok derfor med Østlandsdialektene. Formene "Kven, Kvifor" osv. fant han i større bruk, derfor var det de som ble med i skriftspråket.

[På svensk:] Den enda specifika östlandsformen jag kan hitta i nynorska är att man använder '-t' i bestämd form neutrum: 'huset', 'bordet' etc. (Här borde man egentligen ha haft '-d' eller ingen konsonant alls.)


Ella kanska enntá -ð? Ð hevur jú fornorðafrøðina aftanfyri seg. Men eftirsum trønderskt longu hevur tað og ikki er so kent ella væl umtókt, so liggur svarið nokk longu har.

[På svensk:] Nynorska har ju d där fornnordiska hade ð, även om man stundom inte skriver ut något d alls. I detta fall kan nog en konsonantlös form vara lämpligast: huse. (Man skriver ju t.ex. kva, inte "kvat" eller "kvad"...) I min stavning av jämtska har jag valt att använda ð (som alltid är stumt, även om kombinationen ouð konsekvent uttalas [ɞɵːʋ]/[ɞɵːɣ], t.ex. souð [sɞɵːʋ] 'får', dvs skenbart ð [ʋ]/[ɣ]): hús·eð.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Western

Postby 0stsee » 2006-10-25, 16:50

http://members.lycos.co.uk/norsk/valgkampsak.htm


Is it true that Nynorsk only represents the dialects in Western Norway?

How about the other ones? Like in the North or Trøndsk?


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Offtopic

Postby 0stsee » 2006-10-25, 16:56

Btw,

I started learning Sedish at the Uni, because Norwegian isn't available, unfortunately.

I had to make a test because the basic course was full.

Got accepted and had two meetings so far.

The grammar of Swedish is more complicated, and there are much more German words compared to Norwegian, in my opinion.

Another difference is in Sedish there is a fixed standard pronunciation.


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Re: Western

Postby Hunef » 2006-10-25, 18:07

0stsee wrote:http://members.lycos.co.uk/norsk/valgkampsak.htm


Is it true that Nynorsk only represents the dialects in Western Norway?

How about the other ones? Like in the North or Trøndsk?


Mark

Yes, by some reason - I don't know why (except that Ivar Aasen, the founder of Nynorsk, was from the West but quite close to Trøndelag) - West Norwegian is favoured. Perhaps because it's closer to Icelandic? But in fact, the most archaic dialects are not spoken in the West. I guess one foucesed more on the connection to Icelandic (~ Old Norse) than to the more sane connection to Old Norwegian.

The question is whether it would have been possible to unite all Norwegian (rural) dialects under a single Nynorsk normal. Perhaps one had to choose a specific area to focus on, and it happened to be the west.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Rounin » 2006-10-25, 18:49

He might also have wanted to exclude anything that remotely resembled Danish.

As far as Samnorsk goes, though, I think it would have been simple enough: Take Bokmål, Nynorsk, Høgnorsk and Riksmål and just combine them all in their entirety into a unified language. Unfortunately, what they did instead (they have tried) was to create a standard language which didn't include all of anything, and thus didn't suit anyone. I suppose they had an unwarranted belief in prescriptivism back in those days.

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Postby Hunef » 2006-10-25, 19:42

Does West Norwegian have a less resemblance to Danish than East Norwegian?
From a Swedish point of view, the language situation in Norway is really strange. How come people couldn't agree on one written normal already in the 19th century? Norway is among the most nationalistic countries in the world (at least on May the 17th when even a "norvegophile" like me feel uneasy about the extreme expressed nationalism in Norway), so it must have been straightforward to unite on the issue. At the time, the dialect al differences in Norway must have ben much lesser than in Sweden, and Sweden obviously has a single undisputed written normal. (OK, it actually is based entirely on upper class Mälardalish, but anyway...)
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Gormur » 2006-10-25, 20:06

Rounin wrote:He might also have wanted to exclude anything that remotely resembled Danish.

As far as Samnorsk goes, though, I think it would have been simple enough: Take Bokmål, Nynorsk, Høgnorsk and Riksmål and just combine them all in their entirety into a unified language. Unfortunately, what they did instead (they have tried) was to create a standard language which didn't include all of anything, and thus didn't suit anyone. I suppose they had an unwarranted belief in prescriptivism back in those days.


He wanted to get to what he believed was the true spirit of Norway, the dialects of the Western countryside peasants. Bokmål isn't superior in any way in its approach, either - writing a Norwegian dialect heavily influenced by Danish in a supposed Norwegian manner. Bokmål is associated with East Norse and Nynorsk with West Norse. Personally, I don't see one as superior to another or somehow more Norwegian though. Both of them work well; depending on the dialect in question, someone may find either Nynorsk or Bokmål to be more convenient as it is closer to the dialect forms they use. If I had to choose, I would simply write in my dialect.

I still call it landsmål, btw. :oops:
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

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Postby Hunef » 2006-10-25, 20:20

Gormur wrote:
Rounin wrote:He might also have wanted to exclude anything that remotely resembled Danish.

As far as Samnorsk goes, though, I think it would have been simple enough: Take Bokmål, Nynorsk, Høgnorsk and Riksmål and just combine them all in their entirety into a unified language. Unfortunately, what they did instead (they have tried) was to create a standard language which didn't include all of anything, and thus didn't suit anyone. I suppose they had an unwarranted belief in prescriptivism back in those days.


He wanted to get to what he believed was the true spirit of Norway, the dialects of the Western countryside peasants. Bokmål isn't superior in any way in its approach, either - writing a Norwegian dialect heavily influenced by Danish in a supposed Norwegian manner. Bokmål is associated with East Norse and Nynorsk with West Norse. Personally, I don't see one as superior to another or somehow more Norwegian though. Both of them work well; depending on the dialect in question, someone may find either Nynorsk or Bokmål to be more convenient as it is closer to the dialect forms they use. If I had to choose, I would simply write in my dialect.

I still call it landsmål, btw. :oops:

The problem here is that the southeast (Oslo area) has Bokmål, the west has Nynorsk. But what about the other parts of Norway? They have no written normal to rely on, even though Midlandsnormalen was an attempt to pull focus out of the West. The trønder Olav J. Høyem tried to write a Nynorsk based on trøndish he even introduced the letter 'ð', but his normal didn't become accepted by Aasen & Co. :evil:
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Aleco » 2006-10-25, 20:52

That's because Aasen didn't want his nynorsk to be Old Norse :wink:
Even though I wished it could be introduced and accepted :( And that those jerks in Oslo and the big cities could accept the new landsmaal :evil:
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Postby Gormur » 2006-10-25, 21:08

Hunef wrote:The problem here is that the southeast (Oslo area) has Bokmål, the west has Nynorsk.


Just to be clear, it isn't black and white. Each municipality has its own official language form - Bokmål, Nynorsk, or Neutral (both are accepted). My family, for instance, live in a neutral zone in Rogaland (Bjerkreim municipality). Some of them live in Forsand (municipality), however, which officially uses Nynorsk (education, media, etc). Not far from either is Stavanger, which has Bokmål as its official language form. Bergen is neutral, Ålesund is neutral, Kristiansand (southcoast) has Bokmål, Trondheim is neutral as is Tromsø in the far north. So, I think this is negligible for the sake of regional polarity comparisons. Much of Midt-Norge is neutral as well - probably for the same reason much of Nord-Norge is; the written standards aren't (or even less) well-suited for the dialects.
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

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Postby Hunef » 2006-10-26, 18:04

Gormur wrote:
Hunef wrote:The problem here is that the southeast (Oslo area) has Bokmål, the west has Nynorsk.


Just to be clear, it isn't black and white. Each municipality has its own official language form - Bokmål, Nynorsk, or Neutral (both are accepted). My family, for instance, live in a neutral zone in Rogaland (Bjerkreim municipality). Some of them live in Forsand (municipality), however, which officially uses Nynorsk (education, media, etc). Not far from either is Stavanger, which has Bokmål as its official language form. Bergen is neutral, Ålesund is neutral, Kristiansand (southcoast) has Bokmål, Trondheim is neutral as is Tromsø in the far north. So, I think this is negligible for the sake of regional polarity comparisons. Much of Midt-Norge is neutral as well - probably for the same reason much of Nord-Norge is; the written standards aren't (or even less) well-suited for the dialects.

I was referring to on which dialects Nynorsk and Bokmål are defined, not where they are curently used. But you're right; it's not black-"xor"-white.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Gormur » 2006-10-26, 19:09

Hunef wrote:
Gormur wrote:
Hunef wrote:The problem here is that the southeast (Oslo area) has Bokmål, the west has Nynorsk.


Just to be clear, it isn't black and white. Each municipality has its own official language form - Bokmål, Nynorsk, or Neutral (both are accepted). My family, for instance, live in a neutral zone in Rogaland (Bjerkreim municipality). Some of them live in Forsand (municipality), however, which officially uses Nynorsk (education, media, etc). Not far from either is Stavanger, which has Bokmål as its official language form. Bergen is neutral, Ålesund is neutral, Kristiansand (southcoast) has Bokmål, Trondheim is neutral as is Tromsø in the far north. So, I think this is negligible for the sake of regional polarity comparisons. Much of Midt-Norge is neutral as well - probably for the same reason much of Nord-Norge is; the written standards aren't (or even less) well-suited for the dialects.

I was referring to on which dialects Nynorsk and Bokmål are defined, not where they are curently used.


Then I'm sure it's too vague of a distinction, since dialects have changed a bit over the past 120yrs. In my understanding, Nynorsk corresponds closest to dialects of Sogn og Fjordane. This sums it up well --

From Språkrådet:

If we compare the situation of Nynorsk with that of Sámi and Finland-Swedish, we find that it comes out better in some respects and worse in others. The most important difference is that Nynorsk is very close to Bokmål linguistically. This means that Nynorsk in principle has the same functional range as Bokmål: every Norwegian who uses Bokmål understands Nynorsk. This is a great advantage, of course: other minority languages can only be used within the minority groups themselves. On the other hand, this very fact gives Nynorsk a certain autonomy problem: it easily merges with Bokmål, and the dialects on which it is based often contain many Bokmål elements in their structure and even more so in their vocabulary.

The legitimacy of Nynorsk as a parallel official variety is often questioned because of this closeness to Bokmål. The answer to such arguments is that the linguistic base of Nynorsk – the dialects – and the literary tradition built up in this variety, give it a particular flavor, with many connotations different from those of Bokmål and not easily integrated into it. Bokmål and Nynorsk have been cultivated in different ways and have become unique literary means of expression, and it seems difficult for those versed in one of them to be able to transcend to the other without feeling that they lose something of themselves linguistically. In other words, Nynorsk is felt by its users to be an integral part of their linguistic identity, and this is one of the reasons why it has been maintained for so long in its minority position.
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

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0stsee
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Real Name: MarK
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Takk

Postby 0stsee » 2006-10-27, 6:58

selters wrote:
0stsee wrote:I thought the nominative plural you in Nynorsk is "de" and as an object it's "dykk". Perhaps I just read it wrong.


Du har rett i det.

Personlige pronomener på bokmål:

Entall:

1. pers.: jeg - meg
2. pers.: du - deg
3. pers.: han - ham
3. pers.: hun - henne
3. pers.: det - det/den - den

Flertall:

1. pers.: vi - oss
2. pers.: dere - dere
3. pers.: de - dem
Høflig: De - Dem (gammeldags)

Personlege pronomen på nynorsk:

Eintal:

eg - meg
du - deg
han - han/honom
ho - henne/hennar
det - det, den - den

Fleirtal

vi/me - oss
de - dykk/dykkar
dei - dei
Høfleg: De - Dykk/Dykkar (gammaldags)

Bra filmer på norsk: Elling, Uno, Uro (kommer ikke på flere nå :()

Ellers er disse klippene jævli artige:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%C3%A5pen+post

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=team+antonsen



Thanks Selters,

unfortunately I'm sitting at the uni computer and cannot hear any audio files right now. But I'll check them out later.

So far I have only found "Elling" and "Next Door" of Norwegian movies.

And when I was in Norway, I bought "Izzat" (not my type of movie) and "Skattejakten" which is children TV series, whose actors are Swedes and Norwegians.

Pretty sad how hard it is just to get Norwegian movies here.


Mark


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