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Bokmal vs Nynorsk - Page 3 - UniLang

Bokmal vs Nynorsk

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Sogn og Fjordane

Postby 0stsee » 2006-10-27, 7:05

Gormur wrote:Nynorsk corresponds closest to dialects of Sogn og Fjordane.


Actually I spent my two weeks in Norway in this province. And so it is what I connect to Norway the most.

I would like to learn Nynorsk. But there is so little reason supporting it, because the media and books are mostly in Bokmål anyways. Not to mention the lack of learning materials.


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Postby Hunef » 2006-10-27, 20:28

Gormur wrote:
Hunef wrote:
Gormur wrote:
Hunef wrote:The problem here is that the southeast (Oslo area) has Bokmål, the west has Nynorsk.


Just to be clear, it isn't black and white. Each municipality has its own official language form - Bokmål, Nynorsk, or Neutral (both are accepted). My family, for instance, live in a neutral zone in Rogaland (Bjerkreim municipality). Some of them live in Forsand (municipality), however, which officially uses Nynorsk (education, media, etc). Not far from either is Stavanger, which has Bokmål as its official language form. Bergen is neutral, Ålesund is neutral, Kristiansand (southcoast) has Bokmål, Trondheim is neutral as is Tromsø in the far north. So, I think this is negligible for the sake of regional polarity comparisons. Much of Midt-Norge is neutral as well - probably for the same reason much of Nord-Norge is; the written standards aren't (or even less) well-suited for the dialects.

I was referring to on which dialects Nynorsk and Bokmål are defined, not where they are curently used.


Then I'm sure it's too vague of a distinction, since dialects have changed a bit over the past 120yrs. In my understanding, Nynorsk corresponds closest to dialects of Sogn og Fjordane. This sums it up well --

People have told me that the Nordfjord dialect spoken in northern Sogn og Fjordane has an accent which is very similar to the one we have in Jämtland. :wink: (May be a coincidence. Or has Tröndish changed its accent to one being closer to Eastern Norwegian? Tröndelag is the area between Jämtland and Sogn og Fjordane.)
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby RaseriSykdomIldebrannen » 2006-11-22, 13:01

Ok, a bit of help here, you guys. Ignoramus that I am, :oops: I don't really get the dialect thing. I've always had the impression that Hognorsk is basically spoken Bokmaal, only by a different name. (As you can see, my keyboard doesn't have the right characters + for some reason the special characters feature doesn't include them either, so - sorry!) All the pronunciation guides I've seen so far, with or without soundbites, kinda support that - you tend to hear what you read, so... :shock: confusion... :shocked:

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Postby Rounin » 2006-11-22, 17:33

Actually, Høgnorsk is a mostly archaic form of Nynorsk, which is still maintained to some degree by individuals. Bokmål has its own older sibling, Riksmål, which is somewhat more similar to Danish. All of these are written variants. Spoken Norwegian is much more divided. Even Oslo, with a few hundred thousand citizens, has traces of dialects.

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Postby RaseriSykdomIldebrannen » 2006-11-22, 19:04

Oh, wondeful.... So how does one pick a dialect? I have no one to speak it to, so I'm basically relying on written matter. Some software, like Before You Know It, actually has an enunciator (although they do put down 7 as syv, whereas I'd say sju, but, well... It's better than nothing...), but of course it doesn't specify which dialect is used. :darn: So you basically have to know what you're saying to be sure whether you've said it correctly... drat... :?

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Postby Rounin » 2006-11-22, 21:30

I would assume that the dialect(s) of Oslo and the larger surrounding areas probably dominate Norwegian language teaching to a great degree, so it's probably not much of a choice. It's very possible that people going somewhere else in Norway to study Norwegian would learn another dialect, though. I bet the University of Bergen teaches Norwegian, for instance, and their dialect sounds quite distinct because of their intonation and their pronunciation of r.

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Postby RaseriSykdomIldebrannen » 2006-11-22, 21:51

Great.... Why couldn't I just stick to Latin.... :P I suppose you can't really make a distinction of any accent in a Dodheimsgaard lyric-sheet anyway.... :silly: Until I find a proper class in my area I suppose it'd have to be pidgin if I'm ever in a situation to talk... :cry: As I pronounce things now, I probably mix all the differnet dialects together... :? Oh, by the way, if you see a word you don't know written for the first time, how would you know if an o (with the line through it...) or aa are long or short vowels? or do you just have to know?

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Postby Rounin » 2006-11-23, 3:20

There are actually a few patterns that one can pick up intuitively - especially if the word uses a lot of prefixes or suffixes or follow some sort of standard formula, but in order to be sure, you just have to learn the pronunciation and intonation along with the spelling.

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Postby Gormur » 2006-11-23, 20:35

RaseriSykdomIldebrannen wrote:As I pronounce things now, I probably mix all the differnet dialects together... :?


I wouldn't worry about that. Norwegians themselves are mixing or rather creating new dialects all the time as people become mobile. New dialects are popping up all the time. In other words, there are no pure dialects.

You don't need to learn raw dialect (actually, that would probably be impossible, unless you interacted with a native who spoke the dialect). Let's say you hear a certain pronunciation that you like, and you can imitate it and use either Nynorsk or Bokmål. You'll learn unwritten rules and dialectal words as you go along and listen to speakers. It's all about context. :wink:

Here is a good link for Norwegian language 8) - http://folk.uio.no/albrech/NORINT/norskelenker.html

Lykke til videre,

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Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

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Hitäm Putih

Postby 0stsee » 2008-07-02, 13:38

Gormur wrote:Just to be clear, it isn't black and white. Each municipality has its own official language form - Bokmål, Nynorsk, or Neutral (both are accepted). My family, for instance, live in a neutral zone in Rogaland (Bjerkreim municipality). Some of them live in Forsand (municipality), however, which officially uses Nynorsk (education, media, etc). Not far from either is Stavanger, which has Bokmål as its official language form. Bergen is neutral, Ålesund is neutral, Kristiansand (southcoast) has Bokmål, Trondheim is neutral as is Tromsø in the far north. So, I think this is negligible for the sake of regional polarity comparisons. Much of Midt-Norge is neutral as well - probably for the same reason much of Nord-Norge is; the written standards aren't (or even less) well-suited for the dialects.

In most of the so called "neutral" areas, Bokmaal is de facto predominant (in writing).
But you're right about it's not black or white.
Ini tandatanganku.

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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby kovejen » 2010-12-22, 15:31

To solve the problem everybody should speak the Danish dialect of the island of Fyn / Funen; it is saidf to be what God speaks at sundays.

Merry Xmas

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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby Hunef » 2010-12-24, 0:29

kovejen wrote:To solve the problem everybody should speak the Danish dialect of the island of Fyn / Funen; it is saidf to be what God speaks at sundays.
No, that's the dialect of Uppsala. :hmm: ("Faren I till det Gamble Upsala / För at höra Gud Fader tala.")
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby isenkrammer » 2011-04-18, 7:42

Sorry to dig up this buried thread again, I just have a nooby question about nynorsk

basically I have these two Norwegian friends on facebook. One guy lives in Tronheim and the other in Stavanger or somewhere nearby, I can't really remember. But when they post on facebook they keep posting in 'strange' spellings, like they always write "eg" instead of "jeg", and "ikkje" instead of ikke". Does that mean they're writing in nynorsk, or is that their local dialects which are neither nynorsk nor bokmaal?

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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby Aleco » 2011-04-18, 10:16

Probably dialect. It is extremely common for people who don't live in Eastern Norway to use dialect when writing in informal situations like FaceBook updates. Nynorsk, however, is the predominant written language in certain municipalities around Stavanger, but not around Trondheim. This means that if your friend from Stavanger us from somewhere outside the city, it is quite possible that his native written language is Nynorsk. ( http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... lforms.png )
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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby hlysnan » 2011-04-18, 12:42

If it was dialect, wouldn't the Trondheimer say something like "æ" instead of "eg"? I'm just guessing though, I thought I read this somewhere.

Nynorsk definitely uses "eg" and "ikkje" though. I'm not really familiar with dialects.

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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby Hunef » 2011-04-18, 22:25

Yasha wrote:If it was dialect, wouldn't the Trondheimer say something like "æ" instead of "eg"? I'm just guessing though, I thought I read this somewhere.
Yes, and ikkje would be "itjtj" (i.e., [ɪtʲː]), apparently from an older *itti. (Compare with Jamtish itt which also is the form in the few existing non-palatalizing Trøndish dialects.) Remember that Early Old Norse had *eintki which could become anything from inti to ekki.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby Aleco » 2011-04-19, 18:29

I just assumed he was talking about the guy from Stavanger with his examples :wink:
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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby Sekisei » 2012-09-16, 17:01

I love Nynorsk, and I'm trying to learn it rather than Bokmål. I love all those -a in substantives (veka, mora) and infinitive (eta, etc.). I love "Eg kjem" instead of "Jeg kommer". Bokmål is just disfigured Danish, nothing else. Nynorsk is the real Norwegian.

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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby hashi » 2012-09-17, 0:49

Sekisei wrote:I love Nynorsk, and I'm trying to learn it rather than Bokmål. I love all those -a in substantives (veka, mora) and infinitive (eta, etc.). I love "Eg kjem" instead of "Jeg kommer". Bokmål is just disfigured Danish, nothing else. Nynorsk is the real Norwegian.
Jag håller med ;)

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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby Remis » 2012-09-17, 10:51

I was originally not gonna reply because I'm afraid I'll be too partial here (being a mod and all I really shouldn't be doing that, I think), but I just want to say this. Bokmål's... Not disfigured Danish. Calling it "disfigured" just leaves a really awful feeling. Yes, nynorsk is more Norwegian than bokmål is (considering it's based on dialects while bokmål is based on, uh, Danish of the 17th/18th century or so), but that doesn't make bokmål not Norwegian, nor does it make it disfigured Danish.
Would you call Mexican Spanish (and any other Latin American Spanish really) disfigured Castellano? Is Icelandic disfigured Old Norwegian? Is Finno-Swedish disfigured Swedish? Is Brazilian Portuguese disfigured European Portuguese? Is American English disfigured British English?

I don't know, I may be overreacting because of the linguistic situation I am in personally.

Also, nynorsk is not the real Norwegian. All the thousands of Norwegian dialects are, individually. A written language that per definition can not and never is spoken by anyone ever is not a real language. That's like calling Latin the real Romance language, or Classical Chinese the real Chinese. Or rikssvenska the real Swedish, which, if you ask any Swede, is incorrect.

All that said! It's great that you guys like nynorsk; I prefer it to bokmål myself, and bokmål is my "main" written language (the one I was/am taught in school)! Hell, it's awesome that you like Norwegian at all! But please don't disregard bokmål as a mangled sort of Danish, that's all I'm saying! ;)
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