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Bokmal vs Nynorsk - Page 4 - UniLang

Bokmal vs Nynorsk

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Dingbats
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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby Dingbats » 2012-09-17, 13:13

Remis wrote:Or rikssvenska the real Swedish, which, if you ask any Swede, is incorrect.

Sadly, most people would answer that it is, which doesn't make it right but shows how ignorant Swedish people are about linguistic issues.

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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby Sekisei » 2012-09-17, 22:41

Remis wrote:Bokmål's... Not disfigured Danish. Calling it "disfigured" just leaves a really awful feeling. Yes, nynorsk is more Norwegian than bokmål is (considering it's based on dialects while bokmål is based on, uh, Danish of the 17th/18th century or so), but that doesn't make bokmål not Norwegian, nor does it make it disfigured Danish.
Would you call Mexican Spanish (and any other Latin American Spanish really) disfigured Castellano? Is Icelandic disfigured Old Norwegian? Is Finno-Swedish disfigured Swedish? Is Brazilian Portuguese disfigured European Portuguese? Is American English disfigured British English?

There is one problem with this statement which makes it totally irrelevant.
Mexicans and Colombians speak Spanish (ok, a variety of it). And they know and say that they speak Spanish. Brazilians speak Portuguese, and they call it (Brazilian) Portuguese. Americans speak English and have no doubt that their language is called (American) English.

Yet, Norwegians speak (a variety of) Danish. And call it... Norwegian. Not Norwegian Danish, But simply Norsk. Which is, by the way, very disrespectful to all those truly Norwegian (not Danish!) local dialects, which made up Nynorsk. If Danish came to be called Norwegian, what are they then?

And Nynorsk, btw, is as much artificial as any literary language is, be it standard English, Spanish or Russian. They were all on dialects. Nynorsk is the same thing: a cultivated form of several dialects. But unfortunately, it has not been lucky enough to be widely spoken as English or Spanish are. Danification won. Norwegians prefer Danish to the language of their own.

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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby TeneReef » 2012-09-18, 1:30

Many Nynorsk constructions are, de jure, allowed in Bokmaal, but de facto are extremely rare in translated books and even newspapers. For example, the female article EI is rare in Bokmaal newspapers, neutral plural in -A is restricted to the word BARNA and -um words (FAKTA), and the preterit used in Norwegian Bokmaal newspapers is in -et (kastet) and not in -a (kasta). So, while Nynorsk-like Bokmaal forms are allowed in Norwegian newspapers, they are extremely rare (except for -a definite forms of female nouns which appear in some newspapers like DAGSAVISEN and DAGBLADET, but only sparingly in other newspapers like VG, or almost never in the most respected Norwegian paper: AFTENPOSTEN). I have two medical books in Norwegian, and the Norwegian translation of Paulo Coelho's '"The Alquimist'' and they are in 100% Riksmaal, no traces of feminine gender, or -a preterite, or -a neutral plurals.

Now I understand what the author of ''The phonology of Norwegian'' (Gjert Kristoffersen) meant by ''Radical Bokmaal is extremely rare out of the context of school textbooks and pupils' essays''.

Most Norwegians will tell you 'husa and kasta are not Bokmaal'', because for them Bokmaal and Riksmaal are synonyms. Many Norwegians will tell you you should not write husa orkasta because this is ''Samnorsk'' and not ''Bokmaal''.

:?
That's why I elegantly chose Bergensk as my focus dialect, to get away from all that Radical Bokmaal - Samnorsk - Riksmaal - Dansk-norsk tension. :P (and yes, I say and write en jente - jenten; because there is no feminine in Bergensk :mrgreen: ) I don't really get Norwegians who use HUSA, ELVA and KASTA in speech but write HUSENE, ELVEN and KASTET. :hmm: People should write in the variant which is the closest to the way they speak...
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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby Remis » 2012-09-18, 7:27

Dingbats wrote:
Remis wrote:Or rikssvenska the real Swedish, which, if you ask any Swede, is incorrect.

Sadly, most people would answer that it is, which doesn't make it right but shows how ignorant Swedish people are about linguistic issues.
I guess I'm just privileged, having only spoken to Swedes who think rikssvenska isn't the real Swedish (i.e. most of the Swedes on UniLang). :P
Sekisei wrote:There is one problem with this statement which makes it totally irrelevant.
Mexicans and Colombians speak Spanish (ok, a variety of it). And they know and say that they speak Spanish. Brazilians speak Portuguese, and they call it (Brazilian) Portuguese. Americans speak English and have no doubt that their language is called (American) English.
Okay, I'll humour you:
Iceland, seeing as they are essentially Norwegians speaking Norwegian of a different time. But they call the language Icelandic.
South Africa, where they speak Afrikaans, yet shouldn't it be African Dutch (afrikaans nederlands? I dunno)?
Not to mention English, which was severely influenced by Anglo-Norman (as well as Anglo-French) during the 11th/12th century, to the point where large parts of its lexicon is French.
Yet, Norwegians speak (a variety of) Danish. And call it... Norwegian.
That is completely wrong. Nobody speaks bokmål. Yes, high-standing, aristocratic, city people of the 18th and 19th century preferred Danish (or riksmål as we know it today), because it was the language of the learned and the scholars, like Latin used to be in Central Europe.
But unfortunately, it has not been lucky enough to be widely spoken as English or Spanish are.
Dude. Dude. Listen. Nynorsk and bokmål are called "skriftspråk" in Norwegian, written languages. They cannot be spoken. Except for Western Oslo, the entire country speaks a dialect and writes either bokmål or nynorsk, depending on where they live.
TeneReef wrote:Many Nynorsk constructions are, de jure, allowed in Bokmaal, but de facto are extremely rare in translated books and even newspapers.
Yes. Everything after this point is correct too, and it annoys me, but it's hard to fight it.
I don't really get Norwegians who use HUSA, ELVA and KASTA in speech but write HUSENE, ELVEN and KASTET. :hmm: People should write in the variant which is the closest to the way they speak...
Occam's Razor: it's because that's what we are taught in school and that's what we read. For us, "spoken" and "written" Norwegian are almost two separate languages.
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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby スティアン » 2012-09-18, 9:44

I use "husa", "kasta" and "elva" in bokmål.... perhaps that's why I barely passed my year 13 Norwegian exam.

I'm from the central parts of Norway, so I find using "nynorskified" bokmål much easier.
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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby Remis » 2012-09-18, 10:30

スティアン wrote:I use "husa", "kasta" and "elva" in bokmål.... perhaps that's why I barely passed my year 13 Norwegian exam.

I'm from the central parts of Norway, so I find using "nynorskified" bokmål much easier.
Radical bokmål should be fine, I've never had any complaints (and I live in the capital!). What teachers don't like, however, is when you use things like "har sitti, har kasti," etc. instead of "har sittet, har kastet"; my teachers sure didn't like it.
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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby Sekisei » 2012-09-18, 19:06

F* such teachers! :? School must not be a cesspool of conservatism!

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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby スティアン » 2012-09-18, 22:26

Remis wrote:
スティアン wrote:I use "husa", "kasta" and "elva" in bokmål.... perhaps that's why I barely passed my year 13 Norwegian exam.

I'm from the central parts of Norway, so I find using "nynorskified" bokmål much easier.
Radical bokmål should be fine, I've never had any complaints (and I live in the capital!). What teachers don't like, however, is when you use things like "har sitti, har kasti," etc. instead of "har sittet, har kastet"; my teachers sure didn't like it.

I would never pronounce those words like that.. in my dialect (sørlig Fosentrøndersk), I say "har sette" and "har kasta" but I am able to separate formal writing and regular speaking. :p

Who would write har kasti in bokmål anyway?
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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby EinarJ » 2012-09-18, 23:56

Well, not "kasti", but I always scratch my head when the word "sittet" comes up, believing that anything but "sittet" must be correct. I go through constructions like "søtte" (which is what I say), and through stuff like "suttet", before I usually just rewrite my sentence to avoid the word. "sittet" never sounded right to my ears, and probably never will.

I know there are a few other words like that, that just never will sound right to me, but since I more or less never accepted their bokmål-forms (and just keep on avoiding them as much as possible in written form), I can't remember which they are right now.

Oh, and if it's possible to put an -a on the end of a noun or verb, I'll happily do it, both in written and spoken form. (Well, as long as it works grammatically atleast, I don't go around using -a on masculine definites, that would just sound like I didn't know how to use the dative).

All in all, it's quite sad that the entire samnorsk-thing not only failed, but created this entire "no nynorsk-isms in my bokmål thank you"-thing (and perhaps might even have pushed riksmål up a few notches in popularity too).

If you're looking for the "mangled danish" though, your first place to look should be in Riksmål, and not Bokmål.
Last edited by EinarJ on 2012-09-19, 15:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby Aleco » 2012-09-19, 0:39

EinarJ wrote:I know there are a few other words like that, that just never will sound right to me, but since I more or less never accepted their bokmål-forms (and just keep on avoiding them as much as possible in written form), I can't remember which they are right now.

nytt, ett, dettet? :P Especially the two first ones I would have trouble understanding in a small sentence and even more so alone.

My Norwegian teacher asked me not to use -a endings in my essays (be it verbs or nouns), as my examinator might not like it, and thus give me a bad grade when the time came.
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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby EinarJ » 2012-09-19, 15:39

å nyte, nyt, nøt, har nøte.
å ete, et, ete, har ete.
å dette, dett, datt, har døtte.

Hmm, I actually had to work hard to see what those words were even supposed to mean when I read them, and yes, they are among the other odd words I mentioned.

As for -a-endings, I didn't even notice it was an issue people care about until quite a while after I completed videregående, and I tend to overuse them quite a lot.

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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby Lazar Taxon » 2013-02-11, 20:12

Reviving this issue because I've always had a nagging interest in Norwegian: if I wanted to learn the language in a general way, with no particular interest in sounding formal or dialectal, would it be okay to follow the "radical Bokmål" paradigm seen here? I'd feel reluctant to ignore traits like the feminine, the -a suffixes or "bein/røyk/blaut" diphthongization which are shared by western and eastern dialects, and I like how they serve to differentiate Norwegian from Danish. But in written use, are these forms tainted by the perception of Samnorsk as a failure? Or can they still serve as a happy medium for learners?
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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby Aleco » 2013-02-12, 10:38

As objectively as I can get my mind to process, I'd say they're not really tainted that much. Sometimes it depends on the word (bein and røyk are more common than their monophthongized counterparts while blaut is less). It all comes down to frequency. Our P.E. book in high school only used radical forms, throwing us off at first (since we were used to hardcore Danish up until then), but in the end, I remember we spent the time in the showers after class talking about how nice it was to read some Norwegian for once (although we all spoke a dialect with almost full monophthongization) :lol: My teachers here in Oslo even commented on my use of røk (and not røyk) when I write as I sometimes forget to dipthongize words.

I don't think Norwegians think of Samnorsk as trainted at all. Wikipedia may portray it that way, though.
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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby TeneReef » 2013-02-13, 4:13

EinarJ wrote:As for -a-endings, I didn't even notice it was an issue people care about.

I love infinitives in a: å elska, å byggja :)
They sound so soothing, and make me think of Southwestern fjords (or Swedish :mrgreen: ).

Image

Those with a split infinitive in their local dialect, should use it while writing Nynorsk. :wink:
-a infinitives are fun. :whistle: (Split Norway dialect maps are fun too. :rotfl: )
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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby BlåC » 2013-02-13, 15:54

In nynorsk, a-endings are fine. For a lot of nouns and verbs it is in fact the only correct conjugation. Infinitives with a-endings are also fine, even though I always use e-endings myself. I am quite tolerant when it comes to nynorsk.
But in bokmål there are certain things that just makes me want to tear my eyes out.
People here have written that feminine words and articles like 'ei' are almost non-existent in written material. My experience is totally different. My school books are littered with feminine words. When I read in my geography textbook I constantly come across forms like "jorda" and "sola". I have become used to that. But when I have to read things like "ei linje" in my math book... I'm not OK with that. And even worse, the authors even dared to write "ei bru". EI BRU. What is wrong with "en bro"!?
And what I think is the worst of all is the use of a-endings in the past tense (kasta, danna, ønska) and in adjectives (avslappa instead of avslappet, blanda instead of blandet). These forms haven't made it to the schoolbooks, though. Not yet, anyway... :|
I don't understand why the authors of school books always decide to use a-endings to nouns, and words like 'ei'. The latter I don't consider bokmål at all!!
Are the forms that are used in school books in bokmål somehow regulated? Are there certain forms that are acceptable and certain that are not? Is it for some stupid reason not 'allowed' to write "solen", "jorden" and "boken"? I know this is the case with nynorsk, where only hovedformer (main forms) are allowed to be used...
Well, I guess it's impossible to please everyone, since our dialects are so different.
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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby TeneReef » 2013-02-14, 3:45

Nynorsk does not have main- and side forms anymore (after the reform made last August, all forms are on equal standing: eg likar - eg lika - eg har lika / eg liker ~ eg likt - eg har likt / eg likar - eg likt - eg har likt ... etc..)... Neither does Bokmål after the 2005 reform, so you can write:

Jenten kastet boken i elven (Riksmålsk Bokmål)
Jenta kastet boken i elven (Moderat Bokmål)
Jenta kastet boken i elva
Jenta kastet boka i elven
Jenta kasta boka i elva. (Radikalt Bokmål)


Dronningen besøkte barnane på sykehusene. (Riksmålsk Bokmål)
Dronningen besøkte barna på sykehusene. (Moderat Bokmål)
Dronninga besøkte barna på sykehusene. (Radikalt Bokmål)
Dronninga besøkte barna på sjukehusa. (Yup, this is allowed in Bokmål, although it's the most ''radical'' form).


BlåC wrote: And even worse, the authors even dared to write "ei bru"

Ei bru is, in fact, used in many cities: Stavanger, Haugesund, Ålesund, Trondheim, Bodø, Tromsø ... And people have every right to choose allowed Bokmål forms which are closer to their own dialect.

Ei bru som er ødelagt av flommen i Stor-Elvdal i Østerdalen, har stoppet 15 trailersjåfører fra å komme videre. Flommen sørger også for at de ikke får snudd og kjørt tilbake.
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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby BlåC » 2013-02-14, 11:13

TeneReef wrote:Nynorsk does not have main- and side forms anymore (after the reform made last August, all forms are on equal standing: eg likar - eg lika - eg har lika / eg liker ~ eg likt - eg har likt / eg likar - eg likt - eg har likt ... etc..)... Neither does Bokmål after the 2005 reform, so you can write:

Jenten kastet boken i elven (Riksmålsk Bokmål)
Jenta kastet boken i elven (Moderat Bokmål)
Jenta kastet boken i elva
Jenta kastet boka i elven
Jenta kasta boka i elva. (Radikalt Bokmål)


Dronningen besøkte barnane på sykehusene. (Riksmålsk Bokmål)
Dronningen besøkte barna på sykehusene. (Moderat Bokmål)
Dronninga besøkte barna på sykehusene. (Radikalt Bokmål)
Dronninga besøkte barna på sjukehusa. (Yup, this is allowed in Bokmål, although it's the most ''radical'' form).


BlåC wrote: And even worse, the authors even dared to write "ei bru"

Ei bru is, in fact, used in many cities: Stavanger, Haugesund, Ålesund, Trondheim, Bodø, Tromsø ... And people have every right to choose allowed Bokmål forms which are closer to their own dialect.

Ei bru som er ødelagt av flommen i Stor-Elvdal i Østerdalen, har stoppet 15 trailersjåfører fra å komme videre. Flommen sørger også for at de ikke får snudd og kjørt tilbake.
http://www.dagsavisen.no/samfunn/traile ... t-av-flom/


Right, I remember now that they just dropped a lot of the side forms in nynorsk. For example, the conjugations "soli" and "boki" (sola and boka) can't be used anymore. And the remaining side forms were made equal with the main forms. Didn't know about bokmål, though.
And I know that a lot of nouns and verbs have multiple possible conjugations, and that can lead to many different variations. I guess it's just a bit annoying to read texts that have a few key differences to your own dialect.
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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby Aleco » 2013-02-14, 15:49

BlåC wrote:My experience is totally different. My school books are littered with feminine words. When I read in my geography textbook I constantly come across forms like "jorda" and "sola". I have become used to that. But when I have to read things like "ei linje" in my math book... I'm not OK with that.

From the 1930s or so up until the late 80s I think it was, you had to write certain words as feminine (sol, jord, eik, høne, jente (mostly plants and animals btw)) or it would be considered ungrammatical. It's no wonder people tend to treat these as feminine then. This view you have is the same view that most people from Oslo have, which is why I prefer Nynorsk which represents the sound changes and grammar of my dialect, and consequently, also the Norwegian language.

While Bokmål has the possibility of doing this quite well, it is ultimately put down by the general view that Danish-looking Bokmål is more correct.
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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby BlåC » 2013-02-14, 17:16

Aleco wrote:
BlåC wrote:My experience is totally different. My school books are littered with feminine words. When I read in my geography textbook I constantly come across forms like "jorda" and "sola". I have become used to that. But when I have to read things like "ei linje" in my math book... I'm not OK with that.

From the 1930s or so up until the late 80s I think it was, you had to write certain words as feminine (sol, jord, eik, høne, jente (mostly plants and animals btw)) or it would be considered ungrammatical. It's no wonder people tend to treat these as feminine then. This view you have is the same view that most people from Oslo have, which is why I prefer Nynorsk where I can better utilize the sound changes and grammar of my dialect, and consequently, also the Norwegian language.

Hei Aleco :)
I don't hope I come across as too arrogant and norrow-minded (which I probably do), it's just that I have a long history with both bokmål and nynorsk, so what I concider 'correct' in them is deeply rooted within me. You see, the year I was starting school, my local school here in Bergen was going to start a nynorsk class, after some parents had demanded it. When my parents heard this, they immediately signed me up. But of course, when I started school I could not really write so much. So I actually learnt both bokmål and nynorsk at the same time. Nynorsk at school, and bokmål elsewhere. As a result, in my head, there was a very clear dividing line between the two, that remains even today.
For instance, one of the things that I associate the most with nynorsk is the feminine gender and the article 'ei'. I concidered it a trait of nynorsk. I also strictly segregated a lot of grammar and vocabulary between the two. 'Bru' was nynorsk and 'bro' was bokmål. That's probably why I think words like 'ei bru' and 'kasta' can seem quite out of place in a bokmål text..
The diversity within the Norwegian language is part of what makes it so rich. And I do think it is a good thing that we can reflect that in our writing. But when there are so many varieties, some will of course seem more natural and 'correct' than others. It really depends on what you are used to. I am sure that there are certain words and conjugations that you don't like at all too. ;)
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Re: Bokmal vs Nynorsk

Postby Aleco » 2013-02-18, 2:02

No, not at all, I respect your views completely :wink: I can deal with both Bokmål and Nynorsk and their traditional ways of deciding what's correct and what isn't, aesthetically. I'm just getting annoyed by people around the capital that have started to assume that the written language is what's correct and thus correct others when they're speaking in their own dialects. I have two classmates in Oslo who walk around, rolling their eyes at "people who can't use ham in the objective case" or "oh my God, I don't want to talk to you when you use du in the objective case!" Rather than rolling our eyes back at them, my friends and I tend to stare at them in disbelief.
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