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Ottoman texts - عثمانلی ترکجه‌سی متینلر - UniLang

Ottoman texts - عثمانلی ترکجه‌سی متینلر

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kalemiye
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Ottoman texts - عثمانلی ترکجه‌سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-17, 10:49

مرحبا


Here is the new thread about Ottoman Texts! I hope we can study here together. I plan to keep the thread like this: a text in Ottoman Turkish will be provided, and we can sort out its transcription and translation into English. Suggestions are accepted :).

Since the people here interested in learning how to read Turkish written in the Ottoman script (and that includes myself :lol:) are still n00bs, the first texts will be taken from a book that includes the text and transcription, so we can go through them first, and then start with the ones I don't have the transcription for when we get familiar with it.

Ok, so I was checking my book, and I think we can start this thread with a nice text about something all people in Turkey are passionate about.... FOOTBALL!! 8-)

فوتبول
شھرمزدہ صورت انکشاف و تاریخچہ سے


Futbol,
Şehrimizde suret-i inkişafı ve tarihçesi.
Last edited by kalemiye on 2012-01-29, 10:50, edited 2 times in total.
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

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Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-17, 11:34

انکلیزلرک ملی سپوری عد ایدیلن فوتبول ینہ اونلر طرفندن استانبولہ کتیرلدی۔


[flag]tr[/flag]İngilizlerin milli sporu addedilen futbol yine onlar tarafından İstanbul'a getirildi.

[flag]en[/flag]Futbol is considered the national sport of the English, and also it was brought to Istanbul from their region.

Observations:

1.انکلیزلرک
ک in Ottoman Turkish has many values. As seen here, the first ک is read as a "g", but the second one as a "n". In late Ottoman, some dots and lines will be added to this characters, so for instance, when ک means g, it will be written as گ. Unfortunately, I cannot write the others with my keyboard, nevertheless, they are actually not used. A tip is that genitive's "n" is usually written with ک- Anyways, the best way to learn is by reading texts, at some point you will start expecting them and reading them without any major effort.

The more vocabulary you have in Turkish, the easier it will be to distinguish when ک means one letter or another.

So, basically:

ک = k, g, ğ, y, n, v

I will give now some examples of each value:

ک as k: شکر (şeker), کوچوک (küçük)، کدی (kedi)

ک as g: کونش(güneş), کوزل (güzel), کوموش (gümüş)

ک as n: اکلشمق(anlaşmak) اوکجہ(önce) طوکدیرمہ (dondurma... the ortography of this word freaks me out haha), صوک(son), بیک (bin)

ک as ğ: دکل(değil), ایکدہ (iğde), جکر (ciğer)

ک as y: بک(bey)

ک as v: دوکمک (dövmek), کوکرجین (güvercin)

2 - ملی
ملی , although only one ل is written, it is transcribed with double L. Why? Easy, normally in Ottoman to express double consonants, intead of writting two consonants, one after another, a small symbol is written above the arabic letter; ّ (şedde), making it double. Unfortunately, this is not used very often, therefore, again, we are forced to guess. If it had this symbol, the word would look like ملّی.

3. سپوری
This word is quite interesting. First, it is transcribed from English, that is way it's written like this. Turkish has no liquid s as English does, and I was surprised an elif wasn't used before the "s" (to make it be something like "espor").

Second, as you might guess, a ی is used there, but we transcribe it as "u". Why? Don't be afraid, ی can only be "i, ı, y'', but in this case we must note that vowel or consonant harmony is not represented in Ottoman. Not even in verbs, so in the same way we "getirdi" is written finishing in ی, "oturdu" is also written finishing in ی.

If you pay attencion to the way İstanbul'a is written (استانبولہ), thatہ has normally the value of either "h" or "e", but here is read as an "a".

I wrote this notes understanding that you are well acquainted with the alphabet, in case you are not, or you find it confusing, let me know and I will open a thread with the alphabet and exercises.
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

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Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-17, 13:03

بوندن اون بر، اون ایکی سنہ اول قاضی کویندہ قوش دیلی ایلہ او زمانلر پاپاس باغـچہ سـی نامیلہ معروف اولان [شیمدیکی اونیون قلوب محلی] چاییرلردہ برقاچ انکلیز کنج آرہ سندہ اکلنجہ طرزندہ اویناندیغی کورولن بوسپورک تورکلر و روملر آرہ سندہ برقاچ مرقلی ھوسکار پیدا ایتمسی اوزرینہ ساحہ سی برآز کندشلہ دی و [1904]دہ انکلیز سفارتی معیتنہ ماءمر [ایوجن] یاطی ایلہ [قاضی کوی] و [مودا] قلوبلرندن عبارت اولمق اوزرہ اوچ منتطم طاقم تشکل ایتدی


[flag]tr[/flag] Bundan on bir, on iki sene evvel Kadıköyü'nde Kuşdili ile o zamanlar Papaz Bahçesi namıyla maruf olan (şimdiki Ünyon kulüp mahalli) çayırlarda birkaç İngiliz genci arasında eğlenve tarzında oynandığı görülen by sporun Türkler ve Rumlar arasında birkaç İngiliz merklı heveskâr peyda etmesi üzerinde sahası biraz genişledi ve (1904)de İngiliz sefareti maiyetine memur (İmocın) yatı ile (Kadıköyü) ve (Moda) kulüplerinden ibaret olmak üzere üç muntazam takım teşkil etti.


I have to go now, tonight I will post the English translation and maybe highlight some words as in my previous post. İf anybody wants to translate the text, he/she is most welcome.

I didnt forget about the poems, I hope to be able to post the translations either tonight or tomorrow.
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-18, 10:37

بوندن اون بر، اون ایکی سنہ اول قاضی کویندہ قوش دیلی ایلہ او زمانلر پاپاس باغـچہ سـی نامیلہ معروف اولان [شیمدیکی اونیون قلوب محلی] چاییرلردہ برقاچ انکلیز کنج آرہ سندہ اکلنجہ طرزندہ اویناندیغی کورولن بوسپورک تورکلر و روملر آرہ سندہ برقاچ مرقلی ھوسکار پیدا ایتمسی اوزرینہ ساحہ سی برآز کندشلہ دی و [1904]دہ انکلیز سفارتی معیتنہ ماءمر [ایوجن] یاطی ایلہ [قاضی کوی] و [مودا] قلوبلرندن عبارت اولمق اوزرہ اوچ منتظم طاقم تشکل ایتدی


[flag]tr[/flag] Bundan on bir, on iki sene evvel Kadıköyü'nde Kuşdili ile o zamanlar Papaz Bahçesi namıyla maruf olan (şimdiki Ünyon kulüp mahalli) çayırlarda birkaç İngiliz genci arasında eğlence tarzında oynandığı görülen bu sporun Türkler ve Rumlar arasında birkaç İngiliz meraklı heveskâr peyda etmesi üzerinde sahası biraz genişledi ve (1904)de İngiliz sefareti maiyetine memur (İmocın) yatı ile (Kadıköy) ve (Moda) kulüplerinden ibaret olmak üzere üç muntazam takım teşkil etti.

This sport was being seen as a new kind of game that was being played eleven or twleve years before by some young Englishmen in the fields of Kadıköy near Kuşdili in what was known in those times by the name of Papaz Bahçesi (now it is the field of Ünyon kulüp), this sport made some Turks and Rums curious and enthusiastic about the English (culture?), a clerk formed three remarkable teams, consisting of the clubs Imocin, Kadikoy, and Moda, for the staff of the English embassy*.

If somebody guesses how to accomodate yatı ile there, let us know.

1- اول - evvel.

This word could be read also as "Ol" or even "Öl", therefore normally there correct reading has to be guessed. If there was a şedde on the و, like thisوّ.

Evvel means "first", but also "ago" or "before.

2. نامی - Namı

نام is a loanword from Persian that means name, and as far as I know, it is no longer used. نامی copies the Persian way of saying renowned. In modern Turkish, to say renowned the Turkish suffix '-lı' is added to nam; namlı

3. معروف - Maruf

I think the word معروف (maruf) is not used anymore, at least not very often, and meşhur or bilinen are prefered instead. On the other hand, in Azeri it is still used.

4. ھوسکار - Heveskâr

Heveskâr is a Persian loanword too, that means enthusiast, which I think has been replaced by hevesli (again, Persian root + Turkish suffix).

5.پیدا - peyda

I think this is a Persian loanword too, although I am not sure. It means visible, and I think it has also been replaced in Modern Turkish by a different word, Görünen I think.

6. منتظم - Muntazam

I think this one is still in used in Modern Turkish, by I need confirmation. On the other hand, harika has a similar meaning and I hear it more often.

*Corrections by modus.irrealis.
Last edited by kalemiye on 2009-06-19, 14:32, edited 2 times in total.
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby eskandar » 2009-06-18, 16:29

renata wrote:2. نامی - Namı

نام is a loanword from Persian that means name, and as far as I know, it is no longer used. نامی copies the Persian way of saying renowned. In modern Turkish, to say renowned the Turkish suffix '-lı' is added to nam; namlı

Interestingly enough, نامی is not used much anymore in Persin, as far as I know; we use معروف instead.

4. ھوسکار - Heveskâr

Heveskâr is a Persian loanword too, that means enthusiast, which I think has been replaced by hevesli (again, Persian root + Turkish suffix).

Persian (and Ottoman Turkish) often used Arabic roots to create new Arabic words that didn't exist originally in Arabic. I think here Ottoman Turkish must have used Persian roots to create a new Persian word, because this word does not exist in Persian, to the best of my knowledge. (Though I think it should be حواسکار, or at least that's what it would be if it were used in Persian). It seems to be comprised of حواس (senses, mood, attention to something) and کار (doer) - so, an 'attention-doer' is basically an enthusiast.

5.پیدا - peyda

I think this is a Persian loanword too, although I am not sure. It means visible, and I think it has also been replaced in Modern Turkish by a different word, Görünen I think.

Yes, this is from Persian. پیدا in Persian means "apparent, visible, found." It's roughly synonymous with معلوم (which still exists in modern Turkish as malum).

6. منتظم - Muntazam

I think this one is still in used in Modern Turkish, by I need confirmation. On the other hand, harika has a similar meaning and I hear it more often.

Hmm... منتظم in Persian means "ordered, arranged" and muntazam appears to have a similar meaning in modern Turkish (according to TurkishDictionary.net). The root of the word is نظم which connotes order, system, etc. harika seems more like a synonym for معظم, from the root عظم (great, important, magnificent, etc).
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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-18, 16:41

eskandar wrote:
renata wrote:2. نامی - Namı

نام is a loanword from Persian that means name, and as far as I know, it is no longer used. نامی copies the Persian way of saying renowned. In modern Turkish, to say renowned the Turkish suffix '-lı' is added to nam; namlı

Interestingly enough, نامی is not used much anymore in Persin, as far as I know; we use معروف instead.


Wow, this really surprised me. It is true that Turkish sometimes keeps Persian words that are no longer used in persian, such as Şelale for 'waterfall'.

4. ھوسکار - Heveskâr

Heveskâr is a Persian loanword too, that means enthusiast, which I think has been replaced by hevesli (again, Persian root + Turkish suffix).

Persian (and Ottoman Turkish) often used Arabic roots to create new Arabic words that didn't exist originally in Arabic. I think here Ottoman Turkish must have used Persian roots to create a new Persian word, because this word does not exist in Persian, to the best of my knowledge. (Though I think it should be حواسکار, or at least that's what it would be if it were used in Persian). It seems to be comprised of حواس (senses, mood, attention to something) and کار (doer) - so, an 'attention-doer' is basically an enthusiast.


Well, I just had a look the Concise Persian-English dictionary published by Amir Kabir Publications, and ھوسکار exists, but its meaning is capricious, sensual :? I checked the Ottoman text again, and I wrote it correctly... :shock: Maybe I will post about this in the Persian forum later. So you are right that this word doesn't exist in Persian with this meaning.

5.پیدا - peyda

I think this is a Persian loanword too, although I am not sure. It means visible, and I think it has also been replaced in Modern Turkish by a different word, Görünen I think.

Yes, this is from Persian. پیدا in Persian means "apparent, visible, found." It's roughly synonymous with معلوم (which still exists in modern Turkish as malum).


Actually malum I think is used in Azeri but not in Turkey's Turkish :?: , as far as I know, meşhur is more commonly used. Probably soon to be replaced by ünlü.

6. منتظم - Muntazam

I think this one is still in used in Modern Turkish, by I need confirmation. On the other hand, harika has a similar meaning and I hear it more often.

Hmm... منتظم in Persian means "ordered, arranged" and muntazam appears to have a similar meaning in modern Turkish (according to TurkishDictionary.net). The root of the word is نظم which connotes order, system, etc. harika seems more like a synonym for معظم, from the root عظم (great, important, magnificent, etc).


Yes, I agree with you :D .
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby eskandar » 2009-06-18, 17:05

renata wrote:Well, I just had a look the Concise Persian-English dictionary published by Amir Kabir Publications, and ھوسکار exists, but its meaning is capricious, sensual :? I checked the Ottoman text again, and I wrote it correctly... :shock: Maybe I will post about this in the Persian forum later. So you are right that this word doesn't exist in Persian with this meaning.

I'm sure if you post on the Persian forum, Ali will be able to help us get to the bottom of this. I consulted my two preferred reference dictionaries, Hayyim and Steingass, and neither of them had any variation of this word (I tried حواسکار ,ھواسکار ,ھوسکار,and حوسکار). I can see how it could mean "sensual" instead of "enthusiast," since حواس is actually the plural of حس 'sense'.

Actually malum I think is used in Azeri but not in Turkey's Turkish :?: , as far as I know, meşhur is more commonly used.

malum came up in turkishdictionary.net, but I'm sure you're right if you say it's not commonly used. It is definitely still in common usage in Azeri.
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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-18, 20:21

eskandar wrote:
renata wrote:Well, I just had a look the Concise Persian-English dictionary published by Amir Kabir Publications, and ھوسکار exists, but its meaning is capricious, sensual :? I checked the Ottoman text again, and I wrote it correctly... :shock: Maybe I will post about this in the Persian forum later. So you are right that this word doesn't exist in Persian with this meaning.

I'm sure if you post on the Persian forum, Ali will be able to help us get to the bottom of this. I consulted my two preferred reference dictionaries, Hayyim and Steingass, and neither of them had any variation of this word (I tried حواسکار ,ھواسکار ,ھوسکار,and حوسکار). I can see how it could mean "sensual" instead of "enthusiast," since حواس is actually the plural of حس 'sense'.


I posted there, let's wait for the answer! :)

Actually malum I think is used in Azeri but not in Turkey's Turkish :?: , as far as I know, meşhur is more commonly used.

malum came up in turkishdictionary.net, but I'm sure you're right if you say it's not commonly used. It is definitely still in common usage in Azeri.[/quote]

I asked around and it is used, but not as much as words like açık. For instance: Bu sorunun cevabı çok açıktı (the answer for the answer was known, or clear).
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-18, 20:50

Ok, let's continue with the next part of this paragraph! If anybody has questions, please, feel free of posting them here, I will try to do my best to answer them :).

فقط مع التاءسف بو طاقملری تشکیل ایدن اوتوز اوچ اویونجیدن آنجق بر دانہ سی [بحریہ لی فواد بک] تورک ایدی۔


[flag]tr[/flag] Fakat matesüf bu takımları teşkil eden otuz üç oyuncudan ancak bir tanesi (Bahriyeli Fuat Bey) Türk idi.

[flag]en[/flag] But unfortunately from the 33 players that constituted these teams only one of them (Bahriyeli Fuad Bey) was Turk.

I think this sentence was pretty easy, so I will only note two things:

1. Matesüf, although it is constituted by two words and its taken from Arabic, in Turkish is considered as only one word.

2. İn Ottoman the verb emek is not written attached to the word, but separated, as in Azeri. That is why it says 'Türk idi' and not 'Türktü'.
Last edited by kalemiye on 2009-06-19, 14:33, edited 1 time in total.
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

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Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-18, 21:39

چونکہ او سنہ تورک ھوسکارلری ایلہ روملر مســابقہ اجرا ایدرلرکن [تورکلر و روملر قلعہ یاپمشلر بربرلرینہ طوپ آتیورلر] طرزندہ ژورنال ایدلمشلر و بونک اوزرینہ بر قاچی بوقیف ادلمشدی۔


[flag]tr[/flag] Çünkü o sene Türk heveskârları ile Rumlar müsabaka icra ederlerken (Türkler ve Rumlar kale yapmışlar birbirine top atıyorlar) tarzında jurnal edilmişler ve bunun üzerine bir kaçı tevkif edilmişti.

[flag]en[/flag] Because that year the Turkish and Anatolian Greeks enthusiasts were carrying a contest (betting/glambling) :?: [the Turks and the Anatolian Greeks set a goal and throw the ball at each other] in their modality, a journal (I think here it means something like a report from police or something) was made and because of it some arrests were made.

I feel that this translation doesn't make much sense, but I am feeling sleepy now, I will review it tomorrow. In the meantime, feel free to correct it.
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby modus.irrealis » 2009-06-19, 0:42

renata wrote:[flag]tr[/flag] Bundan on bir, on iki sene evvel Kadıköyü'nde Kuşdili ile o zamanlar Papaz Bahçesi namıyla maruf olan (şimdiki Ünyon kulüp mahalli) çayırlarda birkaç İngiliz genci arasında eğlence tarzında oynandığı görülen bu sporun Türkler ve Rumlar arasında birkaç İngiliz meraklı heveskâr peyda etmesi üzerinde sahası biraz genişledi ve (1904)de İngiliz sefareti maiyetine memur (İmocın) yatı ile (Kadıköy) ve (Moda) kulüplerinden ibaret olmak üzere üç muntazam takım teşkil etti.

This sport was being seen as a new kind of game that was being played eleven or twleve years before by some young Englishmen in the fields of Kadıköy near Kuşdili in what was known in those times by the name of Papaz Bahçesi (now it is the field of Ünyon kulüp), among it became popular among som eTurks and Rums that were curious and enthusiastic about the English (culture?), the creation of the field, (and its popularity) made the sport more widespread and in 1904 with the constitution of the teams of Kadıköy and Moda, three remarkable teams were founded.


You don't seem to have translated the "İngiliz sefareti maiyetine memur (İmocın) yatı ile" part which stumped me -- I get "a clerk formed three remarkable teams, consisting of the clubs Imocin, Kadikoy, and Moda, for the staff of the English embassy" but I don't know what "yatı" is. Imocin seems to be a team (Imogene at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... h_football), but what does "yat" mean here? Neither "shield" or "yacht" seem to make much sense.

Also, I'm not sure, but I don't think it's the Turks and Rums who were curious and interested in English culture, since in Turkish don't adjectives come before the nouns -- I think it's saying that this sport produced a few English enthusiasts from among the Turks and Rums.

Rum here refers to Greek here, or Christians in general? http://tdkterim.gov.tr/bts/ has "Müslüman ülkelerde oturan Yunan asıllı kimse" which seems to limit it to Greek.

I'm still very slow with the alphabet -- I know the letters for the most part but I'm still slow -- but is that final he different than the one in Arabic?

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby eskandar » 2009-06-19, 1:07

modus.irrealis wrote:I'm still very slow with the alphabet -- I know the letters for the most part but I'm still slow -- but is that final he different than the one in Arabic?

The final he differs from the 'ta marbuta' of Arabic in that it is dotless. Arabic also has a dotless he, but it appears at the end of words less frequently than does the ta marbuta (dotted he). Furthermore, Renata prefers to type it in the Urdu style, which reflects how it is written in Nasta'liq. Compare the word مکه (Mecca) written according to Arabic, Persian, and Urdu typing conventions:

مكة (Arabic)

مکه (Persian)

مکہ (Urdu)

To the best of my knowledge, typed Ottoman Turkish would have resembled the Persian typing convention in this case, whereas written Ottoman Turkish, in the Nasta'liq style, would have used the 'he' that Urdu uses in typing. I could be wrong, however.
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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby modus.irrealis » 2009-06-19, 1:09

I feel that this translation doesn't make much sense, but I am feeling sleepy now, I will review it tomorrow. In the meantime, feel free to correct it.

For "jurnal etmek" I found the definition "biriyle ilgili olarak yetkililere kötülemek" (="to speak ill of someone to the authorities as connected to something" I think) so I think you're right. Maybe the authorities didn't like Turks and Greeks to interact (or at least to play soccer) and thought setting up the goal to be vandalism? Soccer was illegal according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... h_football.

A small request -- could you make the transcription into Latin letters smaller (so it can't be seen). I'd like to try reading the Arabic script directly but I'm too weak-willed so I constantly look down at the transcription, and I don't learn anything :oops:.

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby modus.irrealis » 2009-06-19, 1:18

eskandar, thanks for clarifying.

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-19, 8:55

modus.irrealis wrote:
renata wrote:[flag]tr[/flag] Bundan on bir, on iki sene evvel Kadıköyü'nde Kuşdili ile o zamanlar Papaz Bahçesi namıyla maruf olan (şimdiki Ünyon kulüp mahalli) çayırlarda birkaç İngiliz genci arasında eğlence tarzında oynandığı görülen bu sporun Türkler ve Rumlar arasında birkaç İngiliz meraklı heveskâr peyda etmesi üzerinde sahası biraz genişledi ve (1904)de İngiliz sefareti maiyetine memur (İmocın) yatı ile (Kadıköy) ve (Moda) kulüplerinden ibaret olmak üzere üç muntazam takım teşkil etti.

This sport was being seen as a new kind of game that was being played eleven or twleve years before by some young Englishmen in the fields of Kadıköy near Kuşdili in what was known in those times by the name of Papaz Bahçesi (now it is the field of Ünyon kulüp), among it became popular among som eTurks and Rums that were curious and enthusiastic about the English (culture?), the creation of the field, (and its popularity) made the sport more widespread and in 1904 with the constitution of the teams of Kadıköy and Moda, three remarkable teams were founded.


You don't seem to have translated the "İngiliz sefareti maiyetine memur (İmocın) yatı ile" part which stumped me -- I get "a clerk formed three remarkable teams, consisting of the clubs Imocin, Kadikoy, and Moda, for the staff of the English embassy" but I don't know what "yatı" is. Imocin seems to be a team (Imogene at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... h_football), but what does "yat" mean here? Neither "shield" or "yacht" seem to make much sense.


That yatı there is driving me crazy, I asked some people but it doesn't seem to make much sense either to them. Yet, I think that you are actually right about the meaning of that sentence, because they way I translated didn't make much sense, but this one does, especially taking into account that in the next lines it says that only one player was Turkish .Let's see if any of the native speakers drop by and enlighten us

I had no idea about that football club so I assumed it was a person :oops:.

Also, I'm not sure, but I don't think it's the Turks and Rums who were curious and interested in English culture, since in Turkish don't adjectives come before the nouns -- I think it's saying that this sport produced a few English enthusiasts from among the Turks and Rums.

Rum here refers to Greek here, or Christians in general? http://tdkterim.gov.tr/bts/ has "Müslüman ülkelerde oturan Yunan asıllı kimse" which seems to limit it to Greek.


T word order had me confused, but yes, now that I look at it again you are right. I understood that only some people became enthusiastic about the English culture, but I failed to explain that it was because of the sport.

Rum is used only to refer to the people that are called Greek by the Europeans, or, Greeks with Turkish citizenship (those are the two meanings that I found in my dictionaries), also, we discussed this in one of my lessons and remember the professor insisting that only those Greeks living under Ottoman rule can be called Rum (for that period, I don't know if this term is still used to adress the Greeks living in İstanbul nowadays). I translated it as Anatolian Greeks, although it is not 100% correct, because by the time this man is writing, Greece had long been independent, and I don't know if writing 'Turkish Greeks' is appropiate.

I am going to add your corrections to the translation İ made :).
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-19, 9:13

modus.irrealis wrote:
I feel that this translation doesn't make much sense, but I am feeling sleepy now, I will review it tomorrow. In the meantime, feel free to correct it.

For "jurnal etmek" I found the definition "biriyle ilgili olarak yetkililere kötülemek" (="to speak ill of someone to the authorities as connected to something" I think) so I think you're right. Maybe the authorities didn't like Turks and Greeks to interact (or at least to play soccer) and thought setting up the goal to be vandalism? Soccer was illegal according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... h_football.
[/quote]

Thanks for the confirmation :). Maybe in the next paragraph it will tell us why it was forbidden :).

I thought that maybe gambling (sport bets, etc.) was involved, because I don't know in Ottoman Times, but contemporary Turks are crazy about a betting website call iddia, in order to bet there and earn money they can even watch Saudi Arabia football league and bet about it :lol:.

This text is not too long, so we will be finished in two or three days. I find it suitable for our level of Turkish, as long as there are no weird yatıs around. However, next text can be a fairy tale or something like that. I liked this text because of the topic, it is not the typical text in which I don't know who paşa writes about bahçes and çiceks :lol: (I had enough of those).

A small request -- could you make the transcription into Latin letters smaller (so it can't be seen). I'd like to try reading the Arabic script directly but I'm too weak-willed so I constantly look down at the transcription, and I don't learn anything :oops:.


Yes, I can post them inside an spoiler box from now on, but you are responsible for not opening it before you're finished! :whistle:

I am sure you will do well, because your Turkish is very good. Simply try to read words that you know, there won't be anything extra-weird in this text besides some Arabic/Persian words every know and then.

I opened a thread about the alphabet, I can post exercises, etc. at your request.
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-19, 9:18

eskandar wrote:
modus.irrealis wrote:I'm still very slow with the alphabet -- I know the letters for the most part but I'm still slow -- but is that final he different than the one in Arabic?

The final he differs from the 'ta marbuta' of Arabic in that it is dotless. Arabic also has a dotless he, but it appears at the end of words less frequently than does the ta marbuta (dotted he). Furthermore, Renata prefers to type it in the Urdu style, which reflects how it is written in Nasta'liq. Compare the word مکه (Mecca) written according to Arabic, Persian, and Urdu typing conventions:

مكة (Arabic)

مکه (Persian)

مکہ (Urdu)

To the best of my knowledge, typed Ottoman Turkish would have resembled the Persian typing convention in this case, whereas written Ottoman Turkish, in the Nasta'liq style, would have used the 'he' that Urdu uses in typing. I could be wrong, however.


Typed Ottoman text would look more like مکه, however, a handwritten ــه would look like this ــہ.

The only difference with Urdu and other keyboards is that he, nevertheless, this is the only keyboard I can type Arabic-script sort of fast.
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby eskandar » 2009-06-19, 13:32

renata wrote:
فقط مع الپاءسف بو طاقملری تشکیل ایدن اوتوز اوچ اویونجیدن آنجق بر دانہ سی [بحریہ لی فواد بک] تورک ایدی۔


[flag]tr[/flag] Fakat matesüf bu takımları teşkil eden otuz üç oyuncudan ancak bir tanesi (Bahriyeli Fuat Bey) Türk idi.

Whoa, how did you get matesüf from مع الپاءسف ? Combining the two is fine, but where does the -tesüf come from, and why is there a پ in there? Is this some crazy Ottoman spelling rule I don't know about, or just a typo?

renata wrote:Because that year the Turkish and Anatolian Greeks enthusiasts were carrying a contest (betting/glambling) :?: [the Turks and the Anatolian Greeks set a goal and throw the ball at each other] in their modality, a journal (I think here it means something like a report from police or something) was made and because of it some arrests were made.

I feel that this translation doesn't make much sense, but I am feeling sleepy now, I will review it tomorrow. In the meantime, feel free to correct it.

How about "Because that year the Turkish and Anatolian Greeks enthusiasts were making a bet (or competing)" ?
Tracking my progress here. Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-19, 14:23

eskandar wrote:
renata wrote:
فقط مع الپاءسف بو طاقملری تشکیل ایدن اوتوز اوچ اویونجیدن آنجق بر دانہ سی [بحریہ لی فواد بک] تورک ایدی۔


[flag]tr[/flag] Fakat matesüf bu takımları teşkil eden otuz üç oyuncudan ancak bir tanesi (Bahriyeli Fuat Bey) Türk idi.

Whoa, how did you get matesüf from مع الپاءسف ? Combining the two is fine, but where does the -tesüf come from, and why is there a پ in there? Is this some crazy Ottoman spelling rule I don't know about, or just a typo?


It is a typo, Osmanlıca is not that weird :lol:. I am correcting it now.

renata wrote:Because that year the Turkish and Anatolian Greeks enthusiasts were carrying a contest (betting/glambling) :?: [the Turks and the Anatolian Greeks set a goal and throw the ball at each other] in their modality, a journal (I think here it means something like a report from police or something) was made and because of it some arrests were made.

I feel that this translation doesn't make much sense, but I am feeling sleepy now, I will review it tomorrow. In the meantime, feel free to correct it.

How about "Because that year the Turkish and Anatolian Greeks enthusiasts were making a bet (or competing)" ?


I don't know, that word doesn't seem to have a meaning related to betting, I checked my Ottoman dictionary, and at least according to it the word means: competition, rivarlty (same as musabakat), and honestly, at first sight I don't really understand what does the following part of the paragraph mean. I will be posting it tonight. Now I am going to correct the typo and add the corrections :)
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby modus.irrealis » 2009-06-19, 16:53

renata wrote:Rum is used only to refer to the people that are called Greek by the Europeans, or, Greeks with Turkish citizenship (those are the two meanings that I found in my dictionaries), also, we discussed this in one of my lessons and remember the professor insisting that only those Greeks living under Ottoman rule can be called Rum (for that period, I don't know if this term is still used to adress the Greeks living in İstanbul nowadays). I translated it as Anatolian Greeks, although it is not 100% correct, because by the time this man is writing, Greece had long been independent, and I don't know if writing 'Turkish Greeks' is appropiate.

Thanks -- that makes sense. I was thinking of how, if I'm not mistaken, all Orthodox peoples in the Ottoman Empire belonged to the Rum Milleti, so I thought it might have a broader meaning as well.


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