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Turkish - voron - UniLang

Turkish - voron

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voron
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Turkish - voron

Postby voron » 2010-06-22, 22:54

Hi,
I want to learn some Turkish before I go for the vacation to Turkey this September, and I would like to use this topic for telling about my progress and asking questions.

I bought a book 'Yoğun Türkçe Kursu' (in Russian). It has a traditional structure: each lesson consists of a text, a vocabulary list, grammar explanations, and a dialogue whose recording is available on a CD which comes with the book.

I have just finished the first lesson. It teaches to say imperative sentences like:
'İki masa ve üç sandalye getir'.

The grammar is very simple so far, but the words seem very unusual (it is the first non-IE language I ever tried). I may need to use Anki for better memorizing.

Questions:
1. If there is a double consonant in a word (Teşekkür ederim), is it pronounced geminated?

2. How are 'Teşekkür ederim' and 'Allaha ısmarladık' translated literally?

Thank you!

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Re: Turkish - voron

Postby modus.irrealis » 2010-06-23, 16:26

voron wrote:The grammar is very simple so far, but the words seem very unusual (it is the first non-IE language I ever tried).

Although I found the grammar got very tricky later on, the complete newness of the vocabulary made an impression on me too. I thought that my knowledge of Greek might help and there are few words here and there where that worked, and there seem to be a few French/English words as well, but for the most part it was just brute memorization for me.

I'll try to answer your questions, but I'd wait for someone to confirm or correct.

1. If there is a double consonant in a word (Teşekkür ederim), is it pronounced geminated?

Everything I've read says that double consonants in Turkish are pronounced as geminates. I think I've seen the example "eli" = "his hand" vs. "elli" = "fifty" a thousand times.

2. How are 'Teşekkür ederim' and 'Allaha ısmarladık' translated literally?

"Teşekkür" is a noun meaning "thanks" while "ederim" comes from the verb "etmek" which is used to make compound verbs from nouns, so literally it's like "I do thanking".

"ısmarladık" is from the verb "ısmarlamak" which here means "commend" (it's also the word for "order (food e.g.)"), so literally it's "we have commended [you] to God". I think the plural "we" here may be do to politeness, but I'm not sure.

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Re: Turkish - voron

Postby voron » 2010-06-26, 12:51

Thank you, modus.irrealis!

I have moved on to lesson 2. It teaches the use of question particle "mi", the affix "dir"(to be) in 3rd person singular, and how they comply with the rules of harmony. Also, there is another portion of phonology and prosody explanations, and a bunch of new words.

I can now make sentences like:
Bu masa mıdır? Hayır, bu tezgahtır.

A few words I have learnt are found in other languages I am familiar with:
Serbian: dugme, para, čorba, tezga, šećer
Romanian: masa (I suppose this one is Greek)
Polish/Belarusian: tytoń/тытунь (tütün)
Russian: изюм, балык, шапка, башка (üzüm, balık, şapka, baş).

All of them have the same meaning as in Turkish except for Russian "изюм" (raisins) and "балык" (a particular kind of dried fish), and "башка" is pejorative for "head".

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Re: Turkish - voron

Postby modus.irrealis » 2010-06-26, 20:24

Just a warning about -dir since it's not used all the time -- in fact I'm pretty sure it wouldn't normally be used in your example sentences, and it would just be "bu masa mı?". But I'm not in a position to explain its usage.

voron wrote:Romanian: masa (I suppose this one is Greek)

This one has Romance roots, originally from Latin mensa. The etymological dictionary at http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/ traces it back to Italian, but I wonder how the Romanian word fits in. I can find claims both that Romanian is the source of the Turkish word and vice versa.

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Re: Turkish - voron

Postby kalemiye » 2010-06-27, 0:10

modus.irrealis wrote:Just a warning about -dir since it's not used all the time -- in fact I'm pretty sure it wouldn't normally be used in your example sentences, and it would just be "bu masa mı?". But I'm not in a position to explain its usage.

voron wrote:Romanian: masa (I suppose this one is Greek)

This one has Romance roots, originally from Latin mensa. The etymological dictionary at http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/ traces it back to Italian, but I wonder how the Romanian word fits in. I can find claims both that Romanian is the source of the Turkish word and vice versa.


-dir is normally not used, normally it is used to stress that that is indeed wtvr it is.

I heard masa came into Turkish from Spanish through ladino.
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Turkish - voron

Postby voron » 2010-08-03, 14:50

It's just 2 weeks left till my vacation. I'm going to Antalya on August, 20. I hadn't been studying anything since my last post, so now I'm taking a spurt to be able to at least hold a very basic conversation.

Yesterday I skimmed through the book and learnt (or rather got an idea about):

- making plural of nouns with -lar/-ler
- 4 cases (accusative, dative, ablative, locative)
- conjugating verbs in the present tense with -(i)yor and personal endings
- personal pronouns and their declension
- possessive pronouns and possessive affixes
- negation in copula with değil and in verbs with the -ma/me affix
- using var/yok (in my book they are classified as 'predicative nouns')
- expressing ability with -(y)abil/(y)ebil

I'd yet like to learn about the gentive case, izafets and any past tense, and then spend more time on reading/listening and increasing the vocabulary.

I have downloaded an album of <Manga> (together with <Tarkan>, these are the only Turkish singers that I know). I'm generally into the alternative rock and rap (both are not very useful for improving listening comprehension, though), so I find Manga quite listenable.

Oh and I have got quite fond of Turkish, I think I am going to continue learning it after my return. ;)

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Re: Turkish - voron

Postby kalemiye » 2010-08-03, 15:01

voron wrote:It's just 2 weeks left till my vacation. I'm going to Antalya on August, 20. I hadn't been studying anything since my last post, so now I'm taking a spurt to be able to at least hold a very basic conversation.

Yesterday I skimmed through the book and learnt (or rather got an idea about):

- making plural of nouns with -lar/-ler
- 4 cases (accusative, dative, ablative, locative)
- conjugating verbs in the present tense with -(i)yor and personal endings
- personal pronouns and their declension
- possessive pronouns and possessive affixes
- negation in copula with değil and in verbs with the -ma/me affix
- using var/yok (in my book they are classified as 'predicative nouns')
- expressing ability with -(y)abil/(y)ebil

I'd yet like to learn about the gentive case, izafets and any past tense, and then spend more time on reading/listening and increasing the vocabulary.

I have downloaded an album of <Manga> (together with <Tarkan>, these are the only Turkish singers that I know). I'm generally into the alternative rock and rap (both are not very useful for improving listening comprehension, though), so I find Manga quite listenable.

Oh and I have got quite fond of Turkish, I think I am going to continue learning it after my return. ;)


Hello. It´s good you will be continuing learning Turkish. Try to speak Turkish with the locals, they like it and it will help you learning very much. If you like rap, Ceza is the most famous hip-hop singer in Turkey. As for pop, there are artist that are similar to Tarkan like Emir or Murat Boz.

Manga is nice too, other similar bands can be Athena, Hayko Cepkin or Seksendört.

Forget about izafe, it is no longer used at all. Work on your genitive before you leave, you´ll see it will be pretty useful! ;)
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Turkish - voron

Postby voron » 2010-08-03, 16:38

Thanks for your encouragement and music references, kalemiye!

Forget about izafe, it is no longer used at all.

I just read about 3 types of izafet in the book. Is there a way to express posession without it if the possessor is not a personal pronoun?

For example, "student's notebook" is, according to my book:
öğrencinin defteri
and this construction is called "izafet with 2 affixes".

You omitted "t" in "izafet", was it deliberate?

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Re: Turkish - voron

Postby kalemiye » 2010-08-03, 19:51

voron wrote:Thanks for your encouragement and music references, kalemiye!

Forget about izafe, it is no longer used at all.

I just read about 3 types of izafet in the book. Is there a way to express posession without it if the possessor is not a personal pronoun?

For example, "student's notebook" is, according to my book:
öğrencinin defteri
and this construction is called "izafet with 2 affixes".


Oh ok, I thought you were talking about Persian izafe which is used in Ottoman Turkish (i.e: meclis-i mebusan, meaning roughly parliament of deputies). This kind of construction is no longer used.

To answer your question, I refer you to the following webpages. Turkishlanguage.co.uk is a very well organized and usefu website containing many easy-to-understand explanations of Turkish grammar coming along with many examples and tables :).

http://turkishlanguage.co.uk/possadj.htm
http://turkishlanguage.co.uk/possessiverelationship.htm
http://turkishlanguage.co.uk/possessiveforms.htm

I began using this website when I first started learning Turkish and it helped me very much understanding the way grammar works, I use it until this day ;).

You omitted "t" in "izafet", was it deliberate?


No, it is simply a typo :lol:.
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Turkish - voron

Postby voron » 2010-08-09, 9:00

As I had planned, I didn't study any new grammar topics, instead I was practising those numerous affixes that I had already learnt.

My first sentences in Turkish - please, correct my mistakes!

Merhabalar! Benim adım İgor. Ben Beyaz Rusya'danım. Türkçe öğreniyorum. Yakında Antalya'ya gidiyorum. Bir arkadaşla gidiyorum. Arkadaşım Türkçe öğrenmek istemiyor. Yazık!

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Re: Turkish - voron

Postby voron » 2010-08-09, 9:17

A question: what's the correct way to say "I have a..."? For example, how do I say "I have a car"?

Bende bir araba var.
Benim arabam var.
?

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Re: Turkish - voron

Postby kalemiye » 2010-08-09, 11:45

voron wrote:As I had planned, I didn't study any new grammar topics, instead I was practising those numerous affixes that I had already learnt.

My first sentences in Turkish - please, correct my mistakes!

Merhabalar! Benim adım İgor. Ben Beyaz Rusya'danım. Türkçe öğreniyorum. Yakında Antalya'ya gidiyorum. Bir arkadaşla gidiyorum. Arkadaşım Türkçe öğrenmek istemiyor. Yazık!


I think your short composition is completely correct, tebrikler! :D Now let's introduce some connectors to make your composition look better ;).

Merhabalar! Benim adım İgor, Beyaz Rusya'danım. Türkçe öğreniyorum çünkü (because) yakında Antalya'ya gidiyorum. Bir arkadaşla gidiyorum ama (but) o Türkçe öğrenmek istemiyor. Yazık!
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Turkish - voron

Postby voron » 2010-08-12, 16:04

Sağ ol, kalemiye!

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Re: Turkish - voron

Postby voron » 2010-08-16, 10:25

How do I make "chains of genitive", for example "my friend's book" or "my mother's sister's husband" (for the latter, there's probably a kinship term, but I'd like a literal translation)? Should I append the genitive affix to the possessive affix in this case?

My try:
arkadaşımın kitabı
annemin kardeşinin kocası

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Re: Turkish - voron

Postby kalemiye » 2010-08-16, 16:07

What you wrote is correct :)
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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voron
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Re: Turkish - voron

Postby voron » 2010-09-01, 19:50

I returned from Turkey yesterday, and it was an absolutely marvellous experience! I explored the streets of Antalya, took a ride on the Tahtalı mountain cableway, enjoyed the ballet "Troy" performed by the renowned dance group "Fire of Anatolia" - and had numerous opportunities of speaking Turkish. I made friends with a few local guys and learnt a lot of new words and expressions from them. I am definitely going to continue learning Turkish, and read more about the Turkish history and culture.

A few language observations:
- I was really impressed how ubiquitous is the use of the possessive affix. Things like "Yüzme havuzu", "Cumhuriyet caddesi", "Saat kulesi" can be seen everywhere on the street signs. I took courage to use this construction myself, when asking for "tramvay bileti" or "telefon kardı". It is really very useful, probably my best part of the Turkish grammar so far.

- Once I was "talking" to a little Turkish girl about 5-6 years of age - basically, I pointed at things and she told me their names. I really enjoyed this "conversation", and she was probably the one from whom I learnt the most number of words. At one point, I wanted her to tell me how to say "a boy" and "a girl" in Turkish, so I pointed at myself and said "adam", then I pointed at her and her little boy friend, and produced an interrogative facial expression. She answered: "kadın", then hesitated for a while, shook her head and said: "çocuk", then again pointing at her friend: "çocuk". It was interesting how the gender part was not important for her.

By the way, what's the usual way to say "how do you say X in Turkish"? I used the formula "Türkçe X ne demek?", but seems like I was not always immediately understood.

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voron
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Re: Turkish - voron

Postby voron » 2010-09-01, 20:02

Random observations:
- Safety rules are commonly ignored. Minibuses ride with their doors wide open, builders work on tops of tall buildings with hardly and support, boys who ride on the back part of a garbage truck and pick up cans from the streets do it while the truck is on the move - if any of this happened here, it would impose large fines for employees or more likely for employers.

- Food is really expensive, about 30% more expensive than here, and meat and alcohol are up to a few times as expensive. That came to me as a suprise as I expected the prices and average salary in Turkey to be on about the same scale as here in Belarus.

modus.irrealis
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Re: Turkish - voron

Postby modus.irrealis » 2010-09-01, 20:30

voron wrote:By the way, what's the usual way to say "how do you say X in Turkish"? I used the formula "Türkçe X ne demek?", but seems like I was not always immediately understood.

I learned "X Türkçe'de nasıl denir?" with the passive "denir". "X ne demek" means "what does X mean" which probably caused the confusion.

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kalemiye
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Re: Turkish - voron

Postby kalemiye » 2010-09-01, 20:43

Hello!

It's nice to hear you enjoyed your stay in Turkey and that you got to practice a lot of Turkish. I am glad you are going to continue learning the language! Don't hesitate to post your questions here, you can practice with us as well. Join the Sadece Turkce thread if you feel like writing in Turkish ;).

Food is definitely becoming expensive in Turkey, especially in turistic areas like Antalya. Food is cheaper in Ankara than it is in the seaside, but it is more expensive than in other cities of inner Anatolia. Alcohol prices have risen significantly since the AKP is in power, and it is that expensive because of taxes. Did you try raki?:)

- Safety rules are commonly ignored. Minibuses ride with their doors wide open, builders work on tops of tall buildings with hardly and support, boys who ride on the back part of a garbage truck and pick up cans from the streets do it while the truck is on the move - if any of this happened here, it would impose large fines for employees or more likely for employers.


I haven't seen that in Ankara or Istanbul, but as far as safety is concerned, Turkey has still a lot to do. Mobile phones cannot be used inside buses, but it is normal to see the driver talking on the phone while driving.

Oh, and I normally use Turkcede X nasil soylenir? But i guess denir is correct as well. If you want to ask how a word is written, say "turkcede x nasil yazilir?"
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Mert
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Re: Turkish - voron

Postby Mert » 2010-09-01, 21:27

kalemiye wrote:

Oh, and I normally use Turkcede X nasil soylenir? But i guess denir is correct as well. If you want to ask how a word is written, say "turkcede x nasil yazilir?"


Denir and söylenir are ok.

x is read as "iks" and written as "ks".
ه ه
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