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Aap, Tum, Tu - UniLang

Aap, Tum, Tu

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Siloe
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Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby Siloe » 2009-01-05, 19:34

Hello everybody,
I am confused about the use of the personal pronouns Aap, Tum and Tu.
I know that "Aap" is used in case of honour and respect, "Tum" for friends and "Tu" for very close people or children. But I cannot imagine how much one needs to know someone to address him "Tum". I also wonder how husbant and wife address each other. To me, all the three possibilities seem possible.

Thank you for explanation!
Siloe

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Re: Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby huhmzah » 2009-01-05, 21:23

Hey Siloe!

It really depends from region to region and family to family. I've lived in Pakistan most of my life and I can safely say the pronoun "tu" has largely fallen out of everyday use, unless in jest or in poetry (to express intimacy). I've never heard anyone use "tu" when speaking to their children either -- they usually stick to tum or aap. Aap is not only used to imply honor and respect, it is also used to convey softness or care -- so you will often hear adults using "aap" when speaking to a very young child.

Among my friends, I use tum for some and aap for others -- usually aap for the ones that are slightly older than me -- it isn't necessarily perceived as being "formal" when used among friends either. I'm not sure how far you've gotten with your study of Hindi/Urdu but a very common phenomenon in Pakistan to distinguish between the formal aap and the informal aap is that in the informal aap, all the verbs are conjugated for "tum". E.g. "Aap kaise hain" is marked as formal and honorific, but among friends / same-aged people you will hear: "Aap kaise ho".

As for between husband and wife, once again, I know many couples who use aap, and many that use tum -- it's really their own call, neither is strange. In public however, at least in Islamabad, most people will use "aap" when speaking to strangers e.g. shop keepers, policemen etc. Tum i.e. is used almost exclusively for friends and family (only people your own age, no one older), and using Tum while speaking to a stranger will probably be taken as rude.

When it comes to the usage of Aap, Tum and Tu in Indian cities, I know from my own Indian friends that "tu" is still used quite frequently among close friends and I even know of a few who would use it when speaking to their mothers (i.e. just like the usage of the pronoun "tu" in French). As for Tum and Aap, I would think it's as you have described it -- Aap for formal/honorific and Tum for friends and family. Lets see if someone from India responds here and clarifies further.

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Re: Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby Rémy LeBeau » 2009-01-06, 2:43

I have a little theory on the "informal aap". I noticed that in the NWFP that when people speak Urdu they do not use this form, and from my conversations with Indians and watching Indian TV and films, it seems that they do not use it either. Actually, the only people that I have heard using this form are Punjabis, and since Punjabi only has two pronouns for you, tu and tussi, the latter of which is conjugated also using 'ho', it could be something that developed from native Punjabi speakers speaking Urdu as an acquired language, using 'ho' for both 'tum' and 'aap', and has today become common usage. It is definitely a standard feature of the Lahori dialect.

This is all completely guesswork though :p
ਧਰਤੀ 'ਤੇ ਲਹੂ ਵੱਸਿਆ । 
ਕ਼ਬਰਾਂ ਪਈਆਂ ਚੋਣ
 । ਪ੍ਰੀਤ ਦੀਆਂ ਸ਼ਹਿਜ਼ਾਦੀਆਂ 
। ਅੱਜ ਵਿੱਚ ਮਜ਼ਾਰਾਂ ਰੋਣ ।
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Re: Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby huhmzah » 2009-01-06, 3:16

I think you're definitely on to something there Rémy! The "tussi ho" (punjabi) ==> "aap ho" (urdu) theory sounds quite plausible to me. You say it hasn't caught on in NWFP, but I do know several "Karachittes" (and other native Urdu-speakers) use the informal Aap, and I can think of a couple of Sindhis as well -- but going with your theory, I'd say that's probably because since Punjabis constitute a large chunk of the Urdu-using population in Pakistan, native Urdu-speakers and Sindhis have taken to using "Aap" in this manner as well. The regular "Aap" (i.e. Aap hain) is however also alive and well in the Urdu spoken by Punjabi Pakistanis, but it is definitely marked as formal or honorific unlike the informal Aap. In a nutshell I'll say "aap hain" to my parents, but they'll say "aap ho" to me.

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Re: Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby Siloe » 2009-01-07, 21:02

Thank you for detailed explanation,
I see the usage is very diverse. My Hindi teacher, who comes from Delhi, told me that he addressed his parents "tum" and his sister "tu". The informal aap is something new to me.

Siloe

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Re: Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby TeneReef » 2010-09-14, 10:37

In Hindi movies, I hear tu all the time, maybe because Mumbai is originally a Marathi city, and in Marathi tu is the only informal pronoun, similar to Italian and Spanish. :)
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Re: Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby Meera » 2010-09-15, 0:11

TeneReef wrote:In Hindi movies, I hear tu all the time, maybe because Mumbai is originally a Marathi city, and in Marathi tu is the only informal pronoun, similar to Italian and Spanish. :)


Probably, but Mumbai isn't from where most of the actors and directors writers are from, most are from Punjab actaully. And many from Bengal. In India I hear spouses calling each other Tu constontantly and parents to children saying tu. The whole time I have been here I havent heard one wife say Aap to her husband. And this is in New Delhi not Mumbai :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby TeneReef » 2011-08-04, 14:34

I would use tum with children, I won't learn tu. :P
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Re: Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby Saim » 2011-08-30, 9:05

That stuff about informal aap is quite interesting. Although it's a possible explanation, I wouldn't jump straight to Punjabi influence as an answer. Spanish has this same phenomenon, as some Latinos will use the formal "ustedes" informally. I don't think it has anything to do with substrate influence in Spanish.
ماں بولی = قومی بولی

پنجابی بولو، پنجابی پڑھو، پنجابی لکھو

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Re: Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby TeneReef » 2011-08-30, 15:44

No Saim
1. plural (Ustedes) is used by all Latin Americans that speak Spanish, it is both formal and informal (because vosotros is archaic)
2. but using singular Usted for 2 per. sing. informal (thou) is ''Ustedeo'', it's the norm of Costa Rican Spanish (Costarican pupils use Usted among themselves); it is also normal in central parts of Colombia, and sometimes in parts of Chile.

aap, tum, tu is close to Spanish used in El Salvador, Honduras and some other countries, (and in Rio Portuguese):

aap = Usted, (o senhor) very formal
tum = tu, (você) neutral or semiformal
tu = vos, (tu) very informal
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Re: Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby Saim » 2011-08-31, 3:05

I was under the impression that Remy and Huhmzah were discussing a sort of Pakistan ustedeo (informal "aap"), and speculating as to whether this pronoun usage comes from Punjabi influence. I said that perhaps it does, but since a similar pattern is found in Spanish I wouldn't jump straight to it as an explanation yet. Note that I said "some" Latinos, I was indeed referring to the parts of Colombia and Central America you mentioned (although I didn't realize it was Costa Rica in particular that did this).

EDIT: Oops, I can now see where your confusion is coming from. I wrote "ustedes", where what I really meant to write was "usted". I do realize that for all of Latin America "ustedes" is both the informal and formal pronoun, as that's the form that I always use.
ماں بولی = قومی بولی

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Re: Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby TeneReef » 2013-02-03, 1:00

Tu is frequent in Delhi and in Mumbai (the most important Indian cities),
that's why it is omnipresent in Bollywood movies and Bollywood songs...It's avoided
in Eastern parts of the Hindu belt (East UP and Bihar) since it sounds disrespectful there.
(But since movies and tv programs are not made in Lucknow or Bihar but in Mumbai and Delhi, who cares ;) )

If you listen to songs from Bollywood movies you can hear tu, tujhe etc all the time. :wink:
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Re: Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby TeneReef » 2013-09-09, 18:18

Do Hindi-speakers who shy away from tu still use tujhe or tera?
(In Brazil most people use te (and many use teu) although they don't use tu).
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Re: Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby Zarathustra » 2014-04-24, 15:59

Hullo!

Here are some of my observations on Aap, Tum and Tu in Hindi/Urdu:

1. Aap and Tum are both singular and plural, but Tu is always singular and its plural form is Tum.

2. In most rural and lower-class settings where Hindi/Urdu is the core native language*, Aap is spoken infrequently and is sometimes considered too urbane; Tum (associated with Sanskrit "Tvam") is the respectful and semi-respectful form and Tu the non-respectful (only sometimes disrespectful) form. Aap probably originated as an elite Urdu term and was used exclusively by the educated classes in medieval Urdu/Hindi. Also, Aap often does not come naturally to Hindi/Urdu speakers in the southern half of India (Maharashtra, Telangana-Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka), where the Dakani (Deccani, Dakhni, Dakhani, Dakhini or Hyderabadi) dialects of Hindi-Urdu are used. [For example, in spoken Dakani, Aap becomes Tum and Aapko becomes Tumareku; Tum becomes Tum or Tu and Tumko/Tumhey or Tujhko/Tujhey becomes Tumareku or Tereku]. *Urdu is not spoken as the core native language in any rural part of Pakistan (Punjab, Sind, Balochistan, Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa or the Hindu Kush-Himalayan regions).

3. Geography/Sociology of Aap-Tum-Tu usage preferences

Example: Forms of "(You) come."

A. Aap aaiye.
Formal/respectful
Perfectly acceptable in literary contexts, preferred to B in poetry
In India: more personal/warm than B and preferred to B in spoken Hindi/Urdu

B. Aap aayeN.
Formal/respectful
Acceptable in literary contexts
More commonly spoken in Pakistan than in India
In India: more common in written than in spoken Hindi/Urdu, especially when formal directions or instructions are to be given

C. Aap aao.
Semi-formal and more personal than A or B
Strictly speaking, a grammatically incorrect form
Generally Unacceptable in literary contexts
Very rarely used in written Hindi/Urdu
Most probably developed by native Punjabi speakers under the influence of "Tussi aao."
More common in Pakistan and northwestern India (particularly Indian Punjab, Haryana and Delhi) than in the rest of the region
May even be looked down upon in the Hindi/Urdu heartland of Awadh (Uttar Pradesh), around Lucknow, in India

D. Tum aao.
Informal and more personal than A or B
More polite than E
Perfectly acceptable in literary contexts
Used extensively across India and Pakistan, especially when addressing a person who is not older, is very close, or belongs to a subordinate class (e.g. domestic workers)
In northwestern India [particularly in Punjabi-influenced Indian Punjab, Haryana and Delhi, where many people either say "Aap aao" (formal) or "Tu aa" (informal)], this form is less commonly used than E, especially by male speakers
Often equivalent to Aap in rural settings (across the native Hindi/Urdu speaking region in India) and in Dakani speech (including Marathi-influenced Mumbai Hindi/Urdu)

E. Tu aa.
Least formal/respectful/polite and often the most personal, may be used while addressing oneself (e.g. while thinking aloud in a play/film)
Perfectly acceptable in literary contexts, especially poetry
Often considered unsophisticated, particularly in urban Urdu, and therefore not very common in Pakistan, where Urdu is a largely urban language
Generally avoided by traditionally upper-class speakers
Used extensively across India, especially when addressing a person who is not older (particularly a friend), is very close, or belongs to a subordinate class (e.g. domestic workers)
Used extensively as the key informal/non-respectful form throughout rural and lower-class settings where Hindi/Urdu is the core native language (India)

Best wishes,

Vaibhav Kaul

P.S. Between husband and wife, any of the five forms may be used, depending on their relationship (e.g. closeness, formality, power relations), social status (e.g. urban/rural, upper class/lower class), and region. Different forms of address may be used in public and in private (e.g. Aap in public and Tum in private conversations). Also, the husband-to-wife form of address may differ from the wife-to-husband form of address.
Last edited by Zarathustra on 2014-04-24, 17:15, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby TeneReef » 2014-04-24, 16:43

Tu is the normal informal pronoun in the Delhi area (Hindustani originating area)
that's why it is very frequent in Bollywood movie dialogs and songs,
including other tu-derived forms like tujh, tujhe, tera, tu ne etc.
I doubt people who never use tu would use tujh, tujhe, tera, tu ne

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmdo1JgRsPs&feature=kp

Avoiding tu at all costs is a strong indication one's native/L1 is not Khariboli.
Delhi is to Hindi what Paris is to French language, or Hannover to German language.

Avoiding tu in Mumbai and Hyderbad is due to linguistic interference (from Marathi and Telugu, respectively)
and is a form of a linguistic insecurity and language contact.
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Re: Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby Zarathustra » 2014-04-24, 17:02

Tu is not avoided in Mumbai and Hyderabad; in fact, it is extremely common there. This is because Marathi and non-urbane Dakani contain no Aap, only Tum (respectful) and Tu (non-respectful).

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Re: Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby Meera » 2014-04-24, 21:26

They use tu all the time in Mumbai. :P
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Saim
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Re: Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby Saim » 2014-04-24, 21:38

TeneReef wrote:Delhi is to Hindi what Paris is to French language, or Hannover to German language.


The origin to standard German lies a lot further south and east than Hannover...
ماں بولی = قومی بولی

پنجابی بولو، پنجابی پڑھو، پنجابی لکھو

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Re: Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby TeneReef » 2014-04-25, 0:30

I know, but they say the best Hochdeutsch is spoken in Hanover. :wink:
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TeneReef
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Re: Aap, Tum, Tu

Postby TeneReef » 2014-04-25, 0:36

Meera wrote:They use tu all the time in Mumbai. :P

:shock: Really?
That's great. :whistle:
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