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What is special about Vietnamese language in general? - Page 2 - UniLang

What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

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Pangu
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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby Pangu » 2012-10-20, 22:47

Guillermo wrote:His point is very clearly that Vietnamese is the only major East Asian language to use the Latin alphabet as its official writing system, and that makes it unique.

I thought so but that is rather silly.

Korean is the only East Asian language to use Hangul as its official writing system, does that make it unique?

Japanese is the only East Asian language to use three official scripts (not counting Romaji), does that make it unique?

Chinese is the only East Asian language to have two forms of writing, simplified and traditional, does that make it unique?

BTW, weren't people just arguing that Vietnamese is Southeast Asian and not East Asian? Make up your mind.

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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby Guillermo » 2012-10-20, 23:17

Pangu wrote:I thought so but that is rather silly.

Korean is the only East Asian language to use Hangul as its official writing system, does that make it unique?

Japanese is the only East Asian language to use three official scripts (not counting Romaji), does that make it unique?

Chinese is the only East Asian language to have two forms of writing, simplified and traditional, does that make it unique?
Yes, yes, and yes, although Korean has two forms of writing as well and Japanese has kyūjitai. But those are all Chinese-influenced at least while Quốc Ngữ isn't.
BTW, weren't people just arguing that Vietnamese is Southeast Asian and not East Asian? Make up your mind.
I tend to avoid this argument by saying it's either depending on the situation. If you ask me, Vietnam is geographically in Southeast Asia but culturally in East Asia. Some may disagree and that's fine.
native: [flag]en[/flag]
médiocre: [flag]fr[/flag] [flag]es[/flag]
生疏: [flag]zh[/flag] [flag]de[/flag]
基本的: [flag]ja[/flag] [flag]ru[/flag] [flag]hi[/flag]
começando: [flag]pt[/flag] [flag]ko[/flag]

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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby Pangu » 2012-10-21, 1:43

Guillermo wrote:
Pangu wrote:I thought so but that is rather silly.

Korean is the only East Asian language to use Hangul as its official writing system, does that make it unique?

Japanese is the only East Asian language to use three official scripts (not counting Romaji), does that make it unique?

Chinese is the only East Asian language to have two forms of writing, simplified and traditional, does that make it unique?
Yes, yes, and yes, although Korean has two forms of writing as well and Japanese has kyūjitai. But those are all Chinese-influenced at least while Quốc Ngữ isn't.

You are right, they are all "special".

I guess what I was trying to say is, even if that is special... so what?

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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby korn » 2012-10-21, 17:18

Pangu wrote:I'm sorry but whether you're simple or not doesn't say anything about whether you're right or wrong.

That is completely irrelevant. You are again confusing syllables/morphemes with "words". Also you're still trying to force Vietnamese to fit into European linguistic standards


What is your definition of "a word" by Asian standards? My EU influenced definition of "a word" is: a word is the smallest element that may be uttered in isolation with semantic or pragmatic content (with literal or practical meaning).
Please correct all my mistakes, no matter how trivial they may seem to you, also, please help me to improve my phrases. Thank you in advance!
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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby Pangu » 2012-10-21, 19:37

korn wrote:
Pangu wrote:I'm sorry but whether you're simple or not doesn't say anything about whether you're right or wrong.

That is completely irrelevant. You are again confusing syllables/morphemes with "words". Also you're still trying to force Vietnamese to fit into European linguistic standards


What is your definition of "a word" by Asian standards? My EU influenced definition of "a word" is: a word is the smallest element that may be uttered in isolation with semantic or pragmatic content (with literal or practical meaning).

This is the Dictionary.com's definition of the word, "word":

A unit of language, consisting of one or more spoken sounds or their written representation, that functions as a principal carrier of meaning. Words are composed of one or more morphemes and are either the smallest units susceptible of independent use or consist of two or three such units combined under certain linking conditions, as with the loss of primary accent that distinguishes blackbird from black bird.


I believe it fits Asian languages very well.

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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby Guillermo » 2012-10-21, 22:42

Pangu wrote:You are right, they are all "special".

I guess what I was trying to say is, even if that is special... so what?
I guess it answers the question of what is special about the Vietnamese language. Otherwise I'm drawing a blank. The most notable things about are that it is heavily influenced by Chinese and it's tonal. Neither of those things are particularly unique in Asia.
native: [flag]en[/flag]
médiocre: [flag]fr[/flag] [flag]es[/flag]
生疏: [flag]zh[/flag] [flag]de[/flag]
基本的: [flag]ja[/flag] [flag]ru[/flag] [flag]hi[/flag]
começando: [flag]pt[/flag] [flag]ko[/flag]

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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby Tenebrarum » 2012-10-22, 0:16

Guillermo wrote:The most notable things about are that it is heavily influenced by Chinese and it's tonal. Neither of those things are particularly unique in Asia.

Like Yasna said on the previous page, the truly funny thing about Vietnamese is that, it has far more speakers than the rest of the Austroasiatic family combined. A member of an aberrant branch (Vietic) that wound up being the most successful.
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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby Guillermo » 2012-10-22, 2:46

That's true, it does have a lot of speakers, but then Mandarin has more than all the other dialects of Chinese combined, Russian has more than all the other Slavic languages combined, etc.
native: [flag]en[/flag]
médiocre: [flag]fr[/flag] [flag]es[/flag]
生疏: [flag]zh[/flag] [flag]de[/flag]
基本的: [flag]ja[/flag] [flag]ru[/flag] [flag]hi[/flag]
começando: [flag]pt[/flag] [flag]ko[/flag]

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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby Yasna » 2012-10-22, 3:32

Guillermo wrote:That's true, it does have a lot of speakers, but then Mandarin has more than all the other dialects of Chinese combined, Russian has more than all the other Slavic languages combined, etc.

And in a sense, those are also very special languages.
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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby Guillermo » 2012-10-22, 3:44

I don't know about that. Important, yes, but important doesn't necessarily equal special.

To me, special means unique. In what ways are Mandarin and Russian unique? They have many if not most of the same features that the rest of their respective families do. They're just bigger.
native: [flag]en[/flag]
médiocre: [flag]fr[/flag] [flag]es[/flag]
生疏: [flag]zh[/flag] [flag]de[/flag]
基本的: [flag]ja[/flag] [flag]ru[/flag] [flag]hi[/flag]
começando: [flag]pt[/flag] [flag]ko[/flag]

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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby Pangu » 2012-10-22, 13:05

Special: Better, greater, or otherwise different from what is usual: "a special effort"


Let's not use the word "special" because it implies not only is it unique but somehow "better" than the rest.

I personally don't believe Vietnamese being the only East Asian language to use Roman letters makes it "better" than others.

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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby korn » 2012-10-23, 15:45

Pangu wrote:
korn wrote:
Pangu wrote:I'm sorry but whether you're simple or not doesn't say anything about whether you're right or wrong.

That is completely irrelevant. You are again confusing syllables/morphemes with "words". Also you're still trying to force Vietnamese to fit into European linguistic standards


What is your definition of "a word" by Asian standards? My EU influenced definition of "a word" is: a word is the smallest element that may be uttered in isolation with semantic or pragmatic content (with literal or practical meaning).

This is the Dictionary.com's definition of the word, "word":

A unit of language, consisting of one or more spoken sounds or their written representation, that functions as a principal carrier of meaning. Words are composed of one or more morphemes and are either the smallest units susceptible of independent use or consist of two or three such units combined under certain linking conditions, as with the loss of primary accent that distinguishes blackbird from black bird.


I believe it fits Asian languages very well.


My thoughts on that. Please correct me if I'm wrong:
1. The definition doesn't end there, where you cut and paste them here. The full definition is as follows:
a unit of language, consisting of one or more spoken sounds or their written representation, that functions as a principal carrier of meaning. Words are composed of one or more morphemes and are either the smallest units susceptible of independent use or consist of two or three such units combined under certain linking conditions, as with the loss of primary accent that distinguishes blackbird from black bird. Words are usually separated by spaces in writing, and are distinguished phonologically, as by accent, in many languages.

So, they're usually separated by "spaces" :) And when they say "usually" yet don't mentioned the exception, then it's usually practically 100% of all time. :)

2. Dictionary.com seem to me oriented at Indo-European languages. Further more when you speak of "European linguistic standards", you're probably trying to say there's a "Asian linguistic standards". I'm sure there is one. But there's no general accepted Asian definition of "a word".

3. When Draven said, he thinks "gười đưa thư" is one word. then he is right. To be more precise, Vietnameses call it "từ ghép". In this case "từ ghép của 3 từ" (= a word that is consisted of three words). This goes for ""Chủ nghĩa lãng mạn" as well, I guess. So, even Vietnamese can't deny the words that's within "từ ghép" is considered words. My point is, in Vietnamese there are more of those construction (construction that has several words) than in European languages, e.g. German (e.g. the German word "Romantik" has only one word, in Vietnamese you need 4 words to express the same idea)- no matter what linguistic standard you choose to use.
Last edited by korn on 2012-10-23, 17:24, edited 4 times in total.
Please correct all my mistakes, no matter how trivial they may seem to you, also, please help me to improve my phrases. Thank you in advance!
---
S'il vous plaît, corrigez toutes mes fautes, même si elles vous paraissent insignifiantes. Et aidez-moi, s'il vous plaît, à améliorer ma façon de m'exprimer. Merci d'avance!
---
Nếu tôi viết chỗ nào chưa đúng, dù là lỗi nhỏ hay nghiêm trọng, thì các bạn hãy sửa lại giúp tôi hoặc góp ý để tôi có thể học hỏi và rút kinh nghiệm. Cám ơn các bạn nhé!

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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby korn » 2012-10-23, 15:54

Pangu wrote:
Special: Better, greater, or otherwise different from what is usual: "a special effort"


Let's not use the word "special" because it implies not only is it unique but somehow "better" than the rest.

I personally don't believe Vietnamese being the only East Asian language to use Roman letters makes it "better" than others.

May I ask, where you get this quote from? Why didn't you use Dictionary.com's definition of "special", if you use Dictionary.com already?
"of a distinct or particular kind or character."


And I don't see this quote saying "special equals better". It says:
Special: Better, greater, or otherwise different from what is usual.


So, "special" means "Better OR greater, OR otherwise different from what is usual"
I don't see any imperative valuation here.
Please correct all my mistakes, no matter how trivial they may seem to you, also, please help me to improve my phrases. Thank you in advance!
---
S'il vous plaît, corrigez toutes mes fautes, même si elles vous paraissent insignifiantes. Et aidez-moi, s'il vous plaît, à améliorer ma façon de m'exprimer. Merci d'avance!
---
Nếu tôi viết chỗ nào chưa đúng, dù là lỗi nhỏ hay nghiêm trọng, thì các bạn hãy sửa lại giúp tôi hoặc góp ý để tôi có thể học hỏi và rút kinh nghiệm. Cám ơn các bạn nhé!

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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby Pangu » 2012-10-23, 18:20

korn wrote:
Pangu wrote:This is the Dictionary.com's definition of the word, "word":

A unit of language, consisting of one or more spoken sounds or their written representation, that functions as a principal carrier of meaning. Words are composed of one or more morphemes and are either the smallest units susceptible of independent use or consist of two or three such units combined under certain linking conditions, as with the loss of primary accent that distinguishes blackbird from black bird.


I believe it fits Asian languages very well.


My thoughts on that. Please correct me if I'm wrong:
1. The definition doesn't end there, where you cut and paste them here. The full definition is as follows:
a unit of language, consisting of one or more spoken sounds or their written representation, that functions as a principal carrier of meaning. Words are composed of one or more morphemes and are either the smallest units susceptible of independent use or consist of two or three such units combined under certain linking conditions, as with the loss of primary accent that distinguishes blackbird from black bird. Words are usually separated by spaces in writing, and are distinguished phonologically, as by accent, in many languages.

So, they're usually separated by "spaces" :) And when they say "usually" yet don't mentioned the exception, then it's usually practically 100% of all time. :)

That's precisely the reason I cut it off because I don't agree the last part applies to Asian languages, at least not Chinese and Vietnamese.

korn wrote:2. Dictionary.com seem to me oriented at Indo-European languages. Further more when you speak of "European linguistic standards", you're probably trying to say there's a "Asian linguistic standards". I'm sure there is one. But there's no general accepted Asian definition of "a word".

There isn't because Asian linguistic studies have so far been mostly done by Europeans. Also I don't believe we should or could group all Asian languages together.

korn wrote:3. When Draven said, he thinks "gười đưa thư" is one word. then he is right. To be more precise, Vietnameses call it "từ ghép". In this case "từ ghép của 3 từ" (= a word that is consisted of three words). This goes for ""Chủ nghĩa lãng mạn" as well, I guess. So, even Vietnamese can't deny the words that's within "từ ghép" is considered words. My point is, in Vietnamese there are more of those construction (construction that has several words) than in European languages, e.g. German (e.g. the German word "Romantik" has only one word, in Vietnamese you need 4 words to express the same idea)- no matter what linguistic standard you choose to use.

Again, you're using the Euro-centric definition of "word" to fit the Vietnamese language.

I don't know those terms in Vietnamese but in Chinese, we have 字 zi (characters) and 詞 ci (compound words). Neither of these are truly "words" in the Euro-centric way, although both can be argued to be as well. Point is, no one would argue that 注意 zhuyi for example are two 字 zi, nor could they argue that together they form a 詞. See how nice things fit when you use the language's own standards to define it? :)

---

As for special's definition, being "better" or "best" is part of the definition so you can't just ignore it. Fact is, Vietnamese using Roman letters being "better" or "best" is debatable at best.

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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby モモンガ » 2012-11-01, 13:47

I am using a Chinese textbook for Vietnamese called 【實用越南語語法】 and they touch on the definition of word in Vietnamese.
It seems similar to the definition of English word.
It's just that Vietnamese write syllables separately and not words.

su dac biet cua tieng Viet Nam la gi?
What is so special about Vietnamese?

em nghi rang la thanh dieu.
I think Vietnamese tones are special.


nen o the gioi khong co ngon ngu co thanh dieu hoat dong.
Because there are not many language in the words having active tones.

(I mean tones don't change in the middle ussualy, except for 3 tone of Mandarin I don't know any other ones, Cantonese, Thai etc are all static tones).
[flag]tr[/flag]Türkçe [flag]vi[/flag]㗂越[flag]lo[/flag]ພາສາລາວ[flag]tet[/flag]Prasa Tetun

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korn
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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby korn » 2012-11-16, 0:32

Pangu wrote:As for special's definition(...)

Once again: Where did you get this definition?
Please correct all my mistakes, no matter how trivial they may seem to you, also, please help me to improve my phrases. Thank you in advance!
---
S'il vous plaît, corrigez toutes mes fautes, même si elles vous paraissent insignifiantes. Et aidez-moi, s'il vous plaît, à améliorer ma façon de m'exprimer. Merci d'avance!
---
Nếu tôi viết chỗ nào chưa đúng, dù là lỗi nhỏ hay nghiêm trọng, thì các bạn hãy sửa lại giúp tôi hoặc góp ý để tôi có thể học hỏi và rút kinh nghiệm. Cám ơn các bạn nhé!

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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby Pangu » 2012-11-16, 1:08

korn wrote:
Pangu wrote:As for special's definition(...)

Once again: Where did you get this definition?

dictionary.com.

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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby korn » 2012-11-16, 1:35

Pangu wrote:
korn wrote:
Pangu wrote:As for special's definition(...)

Once again: Where did you get this definition?

dictionary.com.

Please tell me where? Here?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/special?s=t
Sorry, it's late here and my eyes are tired. In this link I could only find the definition I already have quoted.

korn wrote:May I ask, where you get this quote from? Why didn't you use Dictionary.com's definition of "special", if you use Dictionary.com already?
"of a distinct or particular kind or character."


But I didn't find your quoted definition....
Please correct all my mistakes, no matter how trivial they may seem to you, also, please help me to improve my phrases. Thank you in advance!
---
S'il vous plaît, corrigez toutes mes fautes, même si elles vous paraissent insignifiantes. Et aidez-moi, s'il vous plaît, à améliorer ma façon de m'exprimer. Merci d'avance!
---
Nếu tôi viết chỗ nào chưa đúng, dù là lỗi nhỏ hay nghiêm trọng, thì các bạn hãy sửa lại giúp tôi hoặc góp ý để tôi có thể học hỏi và rút kinh nghiệm. Cám ơn các bạn nhé!

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Pangu
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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby Pangu » 2012-11-16, 2:50

I was confused. I didn't get the definition from dictionary.com, it was from Google. Just type in "define special":

http://www.google.com/search?q=define+s ... e&ie=UTF-8

spe·cial /ˈspeSHəl/
Adjective: Better, greater, or otherwise different from what is usual: "a special effort".

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korn
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Re: What is special about Vietnamese language in general?

Postby korn » 2012-11-21, 11:14

clicking on the link I couldn't find the definition..... but judging I would say it's not a reliable source at all....
Please correct all my mistakes, no matter how trivial they may seem to you, also, please help me to improve my phrases. Thank you in advance!
---
S'il vous plaît, corrigez toutes mes fautes, même si elles vous paraissent insignifiantes. Et aidez-moi, s'il vous plaît, à améliorer ma façon de m'exprimer. Merci d'avance!
---
Nếu tôi viết chỗ nào chưa đúng, dù là lỗi nhỏ hay nghiêm trọng, thì các bạn hãy sửa lại giúp tôi hoặc góp ý để tôi có thể học hỏi và rút kinh nghiệm. Cám ơn các bạn nhé!


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