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Bulgaria and Macedonia - Page 2 - UniLang

Bulgaria and Macedonia

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Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2010-03-08, 20:34

paruha wrote:
Rumpetroll wrote:And I don't understand why Bulgarians don't accept the Macedonian language? Our government accepts Croatian and Bosnian as different languages even though all three standard languages are based on the same dialect!

Government and people are sort of different things. :)
Our government also accepts it.

Yeah, i get that. :D
It's just that I found that Bulgaria officially uses "the official language of the country (Republic of Macedonia) in accordance with its constitution" instead of ''the Macedonian language''

Wiki could be wrong though. As it has been so many times..

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Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby kalata23 » 2010-11-27, 0:21

Ok, first, let start with the history. In the past Bulgaria and Macedonia were one country. But many times that country has been splitted into Bulgaria and Makedonia. In our days Bulgaria and Macedonia are two countries, but i think and maybe the most of Bulgarian people think that Macedonian people are Bulgarian. Because their language is almost same like ours. It's based to an old Bulgarian language, that in Bulgaria evolved. Some Macedonian people called themselves "българи" that means Bulgarians.
If you go to the past, Hungarians are our brothers. They inherit many things from proto-Bulgarians and in our days they are thinking we are brothers.

EDIT: About the languages. Don't forget that Bulgarians first had a slavian alphabet. That alphabet we gave to Russians and other countries ;)
Азь Буки Веди Глаголи Добро Есть Живети Дзело Земле Иже Како Люде Мыслите Наш Он Покой Ръци Слово Твърдо

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Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2010-11-27, 10:22

kalata23 wrote:Ok, first, let start with the history. In the past Bulgaria and Macedonia were one country. But many times that country has been splitted into Bulgaria and Makedonia.


Regions of Bulgaria and Macedonia were a part of one country for a long time. That is true. I don't think they were split into two separate countries many times. Especially given the fact that the Republic of Macedonia was born in 1991.
But the historical argument isn't quite valid, because the region of Macedonia was also a part of Turkey (Ottoman Empire), Greece (Byzantine Empire) and even Serbia (the capital of the Serbian Empire was in Skopje).

kalata23 wrote: In our days Bulgaria and Macedonia are two countries, but i think and maybe the most of Bulgarian people think that Macedonian people are Bulgarian. Because their language is almost same like ours. It's based to an old Bulgarian language, that in Bulgaria evolved.


I think this sounds very chauvinistic. It reminds me of what Šešelj used to preach. His theory was that Croats are Catholic Serbs and Bosniaks Muslim Serbs, the proof is that we speak the same language. He would also later go and say that Macedonians are also Serbs, but that their language has undergone strong bulgarization after centuries of Bulgarian rule.


kalata23 wrote:EDIT: About the languages. Don't forget that Bulgarians first had a slavian alphabet. That alphabet we gave to Russians and other countries ;)

Glagolitic was the first Slavic alphabet. It was made by Greeks. But I do acknowledge that it was the old Bulgarians who created the Cyrillic alphabet. Old Church Slavonic has also had a huge influence on other Slavic languages.
But I don't see how this is relevant.

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Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby loqu » 2010-11-27, 11:25

kalata23 wrote:If you go to the past, Hungarians are our brothers. They inherit many things from proto-Bulgarians and in our days they are thinking we are brothers.


Excuse me, what? Do you really mean Hungarians from Hungary? The Magyars, really?
De tant que et vull, et trac un ull.
Qui no vulga pols, que no vaja a l'era.

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Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby kalata23 » 2010-11-27, 13:09

Ok. Le'ts go back to history. Kiril & metodii created the glagolian alphabet for the Moravian king. Than their students Климен, Наум, Агеларий came in Bulgaria. The year is 886. Later, Kliment created the circle glagolian. In "Fast Life" says that he invented and other forms of letters for clarity of those who invented wise Cyril. So is commonly believed that he introduced the Cyrillic alphabet, although it is more likely to evolve gradually into a strong Byzantine influence in the Preslav Literary School in the early 10th century.
In any case the cyrilic is created in Bulgaria.

Ok, about the second quote. If Macedonians weren't Bulgarians, why every year a lot of macedonians wants Bulgarian Citizenship ? I heard many Macedonians saying that they are Bulgarian.

And about your 3rd question:

Yes, i mean Hungaries from Hungary. Their forefathers called Magyars at the past were very close to Old Great Bulgaria. The Hungarian professor Geza Feher devolted his life to research the roots of Hungarians and he found that Hungarians inherited many things from the Bulgarians.
I'll tell you one of them is the Magyar bow, that's the name we call it. But before Bulgarians came and be neighbors with Magyars, with what they had shot? With slings? No, they had shot with the bulgarian reflex bow.
A little quote from the book of Geza Feher "Third, researches of Munkachi about the language of the ancestors оf Hungarians, Vogulians (present-day Мансийци from Western Siberia) showed that in this nation 'till our days occur the words "ТОХ" (hen) "СЭГОР" (ox) (theese are the Hungarian words)
resulting from bulgarian words "ТОХ" "ШЕГОР". Тhis results that the word "ТЮК" is later loan word in the Hungarian language and that ancesors had taken the word "Шегор" which has been unknown word for Hungarians till now, that in theier language became СЭГОР........ "
In Hungary every year they make great show/festival . And when my friends joined this year's Kurultaj the Hungaries were very happy, because this year camee AND Bulgarians.
I don't want to brag, but our history is forgoten because of examples like this. If i don't know my history i won't know who I am. And I'm telling you that i don't imagine the words above, Geza Feher spent his life to research Bulgarian history and the relations with Hungary.
Азь Буки Веди Глаголи Добро Есть Живети Дзело Земле Иже Како Люде Мыслите Наш Он Покой Ръци Слово Твърдо

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Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2010-11-27, 13:29

Cyril and Methodius were Greek. Kliment and Naum were Bulgarian. Fact.

Macedonians want Bulgarian citizenship because Bulgaria is an EU member and Macedonia isn't.

Who told you that many Macedonians claim that they are Bulgarian? That's pure nonsense..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_o ... mographics

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Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby kalata23 » 2010-11-27, 14:36

Macedonian people. I heard some Macedonians.
Азь Буки Веди Глаголи Добро Есть Живети Дзело Земле Иже Како Люде Мыслите Наш Он Покой Ръци Слово Твърдо

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Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby gothwolf » 2010-11-28, 5:22

loqu wrote:
kalata23 wrote:If you go to the past, Hungarians are our brothers. They inherit many things from proto-Bulgarians and in our days they are thinking we are brothers.


Excuse me, what? Do you really mean Hungarians from Hungary? The Magyars, really?


Yes, he is right. We were neighbours with Hungarians before moving from Central Asia into Europe. This summer I was in Hungary and some professors said the same. In addition, before the mixture of Proto-Bulgarians with some Slavic tribes our language was closely related with the Hungarian one - nowadays there are some few common words left which proves the point that we were neighbours with them.

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Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby TeneReef » 2010-12-09, 17:31

I don't understand how you can say Bulgarian and Macedonian are the same thing.
I don't understand a word of spoken Bulgarian while I can understand Macedonian perfectly.


If you say Bulgarian and Macedonian are the same language because of the Western Bulgarian dialects, then you can say Slovenian is just a dialect of Croatian, because the whole Northwestern Croatia speaks kajkavian which is 99% interchangeable with Slovenian. :yep:
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Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2010-12-09, 19:02

TeneReef wrote:I don't understand how you can say Bulgarian and Macedonian are the same thing.
I don't understand a word of spoken Bulgarian while I can understand Macedonian perfectly.


If you say Bulgarian and Macedonian are the same language because of the Western Bulgarian dialects, then you can say Slovenian is just a dialect of Croatian, because the whole Northwestern Croatia speaks kajkavian which is 99% interchangeable with Slovenian. :yep:


There we go. Definite proof.

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Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby kalata23 » 2010-12-13, 8:35

Really? I'm from Central Bulgaria and I can understand Macedonian and Serbian.
Why there are too much "Macedonian" songs in Bulgarian's culture?
Why we know Iovano Iovanke, Nazad nazad mome Kalino and etc ?
And when was Macedonia Created? 1991-2? What was the name of the country before? - It hasn't got name.
Азь Буки Веди Глаголи Добро Есть Живети Дзело Земле Иже Како Люде Мыслите Наш Он Покой Ръци Слово Твърдо

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Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2010-12-15, 19:09

kalata23 wrote:Really? I'm from Central Bulgaria and I can understand Macedonian and Serbian.
Why there are too much "Macedonian" songs in Bulgarian's culture?
Why we know Iovano Iovanke, Nazad nazad mome Kalino and etc ?
And when was Macedonia Created? 1991-2? What was the name of the country before? - It hasn't got name.


We know Билјана платно белеше, so what?
We have numerous folk stories and epic folk songs about Крали Марко (Marko Kraljević), so what?
Macedonia was created in 1945.
It didn't exist before that, but neither did Angola for example.
Angola acquired it's independence in 1975. It didn't have a specific name before that and never existed as a country before that. It doesn't matter that it didn't have a name, neither does it matter that it got it's independence for the first time in the 20th century.

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Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby kalata23 » 2010-12-16, 8:37

And many times Macedonia became part of Bulgaria. Because it was just land, no country. And there lived Bulgarians. So after dividing both lands all Bulgarians that lived in that land were separated from Bulgaria. And that land where those Bulgarians lived now we call Macedonia, since 1991 ;)
Азь Буки Веди Глаголи Добро Есть Живети Дзело Земле Иже Како Люде Мыслите Наш Он Покой Ръци Слово Твърдо

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Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby IvoCarog » 2010-12-16, 14:41

hah guys this forum is about languages not about history :wink: "Macedonia" is a sensitive topic for most Bulgarians so let's not discuss it here :) if anybody's really interested - there's enough info on the web :yep:
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Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby kalata23 » 2010-12-30, 12:55

And it's not that Bulgarians don't like Macedonians it's the opposite thing. Most Macedonians hates Bulgarians. Because their ego is big. They thing that they made everything they developed everything and etc. There is a Bulgarian joke that means "Even on the moon the main language is Macedonian".
So i don't hate Macedonians, but i hate hearing when Macedonians are everywhere and are reason for everything....
So about the language i told you that Macedonian language sounds like old Bulgarian. Our forefathers used to use words that can be found in Macedonian language.
Азь Буки Веди Глаголи Добро Есть Живети Дзело Земле Иже Како Люде Мыслите Наш Он Покой Ръци Слово Твърдо

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Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby gothwolf » 2011-01-03, 13:03

kalata23 wrote:So about the language i told you that Macedonian language sounds like old Bulgarian. Our forefathers used to use words that can be found in Macedonian language.


Which Old Bulgarian language do you mean? If you're talking about the Old Bulgarian - 9th to 11th century then I cannot agree with you, because it hasn't nothing in common with Macedonian or even with the modern Bulgarian (except for the vocabulary maybe). Old Bulgarian has had quite a different phonetic system from the Macedonian language.

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Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby IvoCarog » 2011-01-04, 22:54

gothwolf wrote:Which Old Bulgarian language do you mean? If you're talking about the Old Bulgarian - 9th to 11th century


lol i don't think he means 10th century Old Bulgarian :wink:

if i should guess i'd say that by "old Bulgarian" he refers to the way Bulgarian language was spoken a century or so ago
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Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby gothwolf » 2011-01-05, 9:48

Me too, but the term "Old Bulgarian" means exactly the language during that period. That's why I'm a bit confused.

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Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby kateri4ok » 2011-01-11, 19:46

People, stop fighting. Bulgarian and Macedonian are considered separate languages for political, not for linguistic reasons. "Language" is just a title given to standardised dialects and we shouldn't let it bother us. Both Bulgarian and Macedonian descend from the eastern dialects of the South Slavic dialect continuum and differ (I mean the modern languages) gravely from other South Slavic languages such as Serbian in vocabulary and grammar. Especially grammar. For example Serbian has 7 cases and no definite article whereas Bulgarian and Macedonian have no cases (only traces of them) and a postfixed definite article.
Similar is the case with Persian, Dari and Tajik. They became separate languages because of standardisations implemented in Iran, Afghanistan and the Tajik Soviet Republic.
The standardisation of Bulgarian was in the 9th century and that of Macedonian - after World War Two, so officialy it IS a separate language and we can't do anything about it, no matter what we know and think.
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Location: Stara Zagora
Country: BG Bulgaria (България)

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby kalata23 » 2011-01-12, 4:39

Yeah sorry, i meant the language in the past few senturies
Азь Буки Веди Глаголи Добро Есть Живети Дзело Земле Иже Како Люде Мыслите Наш Он Покой Ръци Слово Твърдо


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