[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions::$regionsdata
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 424: Trying to get property of non-object
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/ext/unilang/languages/includes/lang_functions.php on line 403: Undefined property: unilang/languages/includes/lang_data::$country_names_en
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 5312: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3925)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 5312: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3925)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 5312: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3925)
Bulgaria and Macedonia - Page 3 - UniLang

Bulgaria and Macedonia

Moderator: gothwolf

User avatar
Svet
Posts: 64
Joined: 2011-01-13, 5:29
Gender: female

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby Svet » 2011-01-13, 6:38

kateri4ok wrote:People, stop fighting. Bulgarian and Macedonian are considered separate languages for political, not for linguistic reasons. "Language" is just a title given to standardised dialects and we shouldn't let it bother us.


That's correct actually. The ISO-639 doesn't differ between languages and dialects. Many linguists do not recognize Macedonian as a separate language. It is important to note however, that what nowadays is considered official Macedonian is not the pure Macedonian dialect from 60 years ago. But I'd object to all of those who say they understand Macedonian perfectly, but don't understand a word of Bulgarian. Well, that only means, that your linguistic skills are not really broad, it has nothing to do with the fact that the one is a dialect of the other. A propos, many Germans do not understand the Bavarian or Sachson dialect, and many English people do not understand the Liverpoolian.
Native: Image
Advanced by birth: Image
Fluent: Image Image
Passionate & learning: Image Image

Ludwig Whitby
Posts: 3541
Joined: 2009-03-30, 13:44
Gender: male
Location: Belgrade
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-01-13, 12:17

Svet wrote:
That's correct actually. The ISO-639 doesn't differ between languages and dialects. Many linguists do not recognize Macedonian as a separate language. It is important to note however, that what nowadays is considered official Macedonian is not the pure Macedonian dialect from 60 years ago. But I'd object to all of those who say they understand Macedonian perfectly, but don't understand a word of Bulgarian. Well, that only means, that your linguistic skills are not really broad, it has nothing to do with the fact that the one is a dialect of the other. A propos, many Germans do not understand the Bavarian or Sachson dialect, and many English people do not understand the Liverpoolian.


I think it was Tenereef who said that he doesn't understand a word of spoken Bulgarian. I must say that even spoken Macedonian is tough to understand unless you get used to it. Otherwise both languages are easy for us to understand, even though Macedonian is easier because it is more similar to Serbian.

User avatar
Svet
Posts: 64
Joined: 2011-01-13, 5:29
Gender: female

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby Svet » 2011-01-13, 12:43

Rumpetroll wrote: I must say that even spoken Macedonian is tough to understand unless you get used to it. Otherwise both languages are easy for us to understand, even though Macedonian is easier because it is more similar to Serbian.


Well, it is different, if you're Serbian. Then we count on common South-Slavic roots to understand the language. But as a Bulgarian, when I first visited Macedonia years ago, I understood fairly some 90% of the spoken language. Regions like Skopje or Strumica, I think, are a bit tougher, Bitola however is a very pure region from a linguistic point of view. And if you spend about two weeks within the country, those initial 90% rise up to 97% or 100% - if the people speak pure Macedonian, and not a dialect.
Native: Image
Advanced by birth: Image
Fluent: Image Image
Passionate & learning: Image Image

User avatar
TeneReef
Posts: 2897
Joined: 2010-04-17, 23:22
Gender: male
Location: Brestova-Porozina
Country: HR Croatia (Hrvatska)

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby TeneReef » 2011-01-15, 7:12

Macedonian has the same vowels as Croatian: a e i o u, so it's easy to understand.
Bulgarian is just as difficult to understand as Russian because of many muffled vocals and shwa's. It sounds like there are only consonants, so it's difficult to understand. :hmm:

When Macedonians speak (or sing) in Croatian they sound like Croatian.
When Bulgarians speak Croatian (for example Nikolaj Pešalov), they sound like Russians. :P
learning:  (ne)  (sv)  (es-ar)  (hi) (Assamese, Gujarati, Hindi, Telugu)

User avatar
gothwolf
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2409
Joined: 2006-04-15, 6:33
Real Name: Християн Бонев
Gender: male
Location: София / Ямбол
Country: BG Bulgaria (България)
Contact:

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby gothwolf » 2011-01-15, 11:19

TeneReef wrote:Bulgarian is just as difficult to understand as Russian because of many muffled vocals and shwa's. It sounds like there are only consonants, so it's difficult to understand.


Ooh, come on! You, Serbian and Croat people have words without any consonants: prst, vrh hrvatski, srpski and etc. so, I think it's stupid to claim that Bulgarian and even Russian sound like there aren't any vowels. Besides, a lot of Bulgarians pronounce this schwa sound (ъ) closely to the normal [а] sound as well as it's in Macedonian.


TeneReef wrote:When Macedonians speak (or sing) in Croatian they sound like Croatian.


In my opinion Macedonian songs sound just like Bulgarian ones but sung with a strange pronunciation. So??

User avatar
Formiko
Posts: 13388
Joined: 2008-01-25, 10:21
Real Name: Dosvdali
Gender: male
Location: Ashghabat
Country: TM Turkmenistan (Türkmenistan)

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby Formiko » 2011-01-15, 11:26

Sorry to step in so late, but my good friend from Bulgaria married a Macedonian and they have NO problem talking to each other. He speaks Bulgarian to her, and she speak Macedonian to him. (I like the sound of Macedonian better). I speak a little Russian, and I can decipher 70% of their conversations. I probably won't get details, but I will know what they're talking about. He says he HATES Russian, and he says the 2 are as far apart as Chinese and Bulgarian. I know it's just a bias he has. :)
Cherokee Indian STILL improving German.
Getting reacquainted with Swahili Msaada!
In no particular order
[flag]eo[/flag][flag]de[/flag][flag]es[/flag][flag]yo[/flag][flag]chr[/flag][flag]ru[/flag]

User avatar
Svet
Posts: 64
Joined: 2011-01-13, 5:29
Gender: female

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby Svet » 2011-01-15, 12:08

gothwolf wrote:Ooh, come on! You, Serbian and Croat people have words without any consonants: prst, vrh hrvatski, srpski and etc. so, I think it's stupid to claim that Bulgarian and even Russian sound like there aren't any vowels. Besides, a lot of Bulgarians pronounce this schwa sound (ъ) closely to the normal [а] sound as well as it's in Macedonian.


I agree with TeneReef that Macedonian sounds different than official Bulgarian. And yes, Bulgarian sounds closer to Russian, while Macedonian sounds closer to Serbian, Croatian etc. This is because Macedonian has a lot of soft consonants like Ѓ, Љ, Њ, along with the normal Г, Л, Н. Exactly these "softer" letters give the different sounding of the language. But then again, many other Bulgarian dialects have the same sounding - people talk like this in the Macedonian region within Bulgaria. The northwest Bulgarian dialect in the Vratsa region has a lot of verbs-turned-into-nouns with soft endings, exactly like in official Macedonian.

I've also heard that when the Great national council gathered, right after the freedom of Bulgaria from the Ottoman empire in 1878, the people voted on which Bulgarian dialect to be chosen for official use. Macedonian lost with 1 vote. Exactly the picking of another local dialect made those two so different - however, only in sounding.
Native: Image
Advanced by birth: Image
Fluent: Image Image
Passionate & learning: Image Image

User avatar
gothwolf
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2409
Joined: 2006-04-15, 6:33
Real Name: Християн Бонев
Gender: male
Location: София / Ямбол
Country: BG Bulgaria (България)
Contact:

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby gothwolf » 2011-01-15, 12:29

Of course Macedonian pronunciation is different from the Bulgarian one but still Macedonian is more understandable for most of the Bulgarians than Russian. Yea, OK you say soften consonants but you cannot agree that we have them, too (the difference here is that we don't have special letters for them)
For example
The Macedonian љу = лю [л'у] (љубов = любов)
what about the њ? Let's take an example (it's much easier). Macedonian people say мислењe [мисленjе] but usually in Bulgarian the letter "е" softens the consonant before it so there is a minimal difference between the Bulgarian and Macedonian pronunciation way of this word.

Ludwig Whitby
Posts: 3541
Joined: 2009-03-30, 13:44
Gender: male
Location: Belgrade
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-01-15, 12:40

So ъ is pronounced often like /a/? Is it the case only in the west? Is it only in some words, or is it when a speaker uses /a/ he uses it for every ъ?
And another question, how do they pronounce yat in Sofia? The maps I've seen leave Sofia on the western side of the border, alongside Macedonian.

User avatar
gothwolf
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2409
Joined: 2006-04-15, 6:33
Real Name: Християн Бонев
Gender: male
Location: София / Ямбол
Country: BG Bulgaria (България)
Contact:

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby gothwolf » 2011-01-15, 12:50

Rumpetroll wrote:So ъ is pronounced often like /a/? Is it the case only in the west? Is it only in some words, or is it when a speaker uses /a/ he uses it for every ъ?.


It depends on the speaker but a lot of people make spelling mistakes [ъ] vs. [а] because in some regions [ъ] is pronounced so unclear that it's more close to [а].

Rumpetroll wrote:And another question, how do they pronounce yat in Sofia? The maps I've seen leave Sofia on the western side of the border, alongside Macedonian.


Yes, people of Sofia usually say "е" instead of "я" (the classical example for this is the word for milk: мл'еко [mljéko])

Ludwig Whitby
Posts: 3541
Joined: 2009-03-30, 13:44
Gender: male
Location: Belgrade
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-01-15, 13:05

It's strange for me to see that people in the capital and the biggest city in the country don't speak the standard dialect. I would have also thought that the pressure of the standard language would influence them to change their pronunciation.

User avatar
IvoCarog
Posts: 63
Joined: 2010-02-22, 20:53
Gender: male
Country: GB United Kingdom (United Kingdom)

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby IvoCarog » 2011-01-15, 13:11

hmm...i'm no linguist so all i can say is that - Macedonian is the only language i can understand without ever learning it...even Serbian which is as close to Bulgarian as it gets (even closer than Russian :wink: ) i can understand only half of the time (i mean if i listen to the language - reading is a bit easier)...whereas with Macedonian - i can watch Macedonian TV and understand about 95% of what's being said :)
native: Image
fluent: Image
well enough: Image
learning/used to learn: Image Image Image Image Image Image

User avatar
Svet
Posts: 64
Joined: 2011-01-13, 5:29
Gender: female

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby Svet » 2011-01-15, 13:20

Rumpetroll wrote:It's strange for me to see that people in the capital and the biggest city in the country don't speak the standard dialect. I would have also thought that the pressure of the standard language would influence them to change their pronunciation.


They do speak the standard dialect, i.e. official language. What gothwolf described is not entirely correct. The "ya" is substituted for "e" in whole Western Bulgaria, which falls within the so-called "Yat"-linguistic border. The whole region around Sofia also has an own specific dialect. But the people in Sofia do not speak any dialect. The often use slang though.
Basically, the rule is, if you hear dialect in Sofia - no matter what kind - the person is from some place else.

Regarding the "e" softening the Bulgarian endings of some words - this, again, happens only in the dialects. It is exactly the main difference between the official Bulgarian and the different dialects.
Native: Image
Advanced by birth: Image
Fluent: Image Image
Passionate & learning: Image Image

User avatar
gothwolf
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2409
Joined: 2006-04-15, 6:33
Real Name: Християн Бонев
Gender: male
Location: София / Ямбол
Country: BG Bulgaria (България)
Contact:

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby gothwolf » 2011-01-15, 13:46

Svet wrote:But the people in Sofia do not speak any dialect.


Sure! :haharight:

User avatar
Svet
Posts: 64
Joined: 2011-01-13, 5:29
Gender: female

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby Svet » 2011-01-15, 13:55

gothwolf wrote:
Svet wrote:But the people in Sofia do not speak any dialect.


Sure! :haharight:



Okay, let me say it in a different way. I'm a mixture of Moesia, Thrace and Macedonia, as my parents and grandparents come from all three regions in Bulgaria. I've been born and grown up in Sofia in the time, when fixed citizenship applied (i.e. people from a certain city could be granted citizenship in another city only after administrative approval). So, while I was going to school, interacting with people in the streets, talking to my parents or watching TV, I have never heard anything outside the official classical Bulgarian. At that time, dialects I've heard only when leaving the city and going to my grandma's village. Right now, Sofia is a mixture of people from all over Bulgaria, and you can hear all types of dialects. Which - I have to note - is very fun to me, because I love dialects.
Native: Image
Advanced by birth: Image
Fluent: Image Image
Passionate & learning: Image Image

User avatar
gothwolf
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2409
Joined: 2006-04-15, 6:33
Real Name: Християн Бонев
Gender: male
Location: София / Ямбол
Country: BG Bulgaria (България)
Contact:

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby gothwolf » 2011-01-15, 14:20

Which dialect was the base of the modern Bulgarian after the Liberation in 1878 – East and Central Balkan dialects which is not exactly the language that had been spoken in Sofia during that time. You want to convince me that after the standardization of the language people of Sofia “had forgotten” their own dialect (because each region has a specific dialect forms) just to speak “pure” Bulgarian? Besides, as you said, there are not many native citizens of Sofia left so it’s hard to meet someone who speaks authentic speech of that region. Now in Sofia it’s more likely to hear “хлеб” and “ходиме” instead of the right forms “хляб” and “ходим”.

User avatar
Svet
Posts: 64
Joined: 2011-01-13, 5:29
Gender: female

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby Svet » 2011-01-15, 16:19

gothwolf wrote:Which dialect was the base of the modern Bulgarian after the Liberation in 1878 – East and Central Balkan dialects which is not exactly the language that had been spoken in Sofia during that time. You want to convince me that after the standardization of the language people of Sofia “had forgotten” their own dialect (because each region has a specific dialect forms) just to speak “pure” Bulgarian? Besides, as you said, there are not many native citizens of Sofia left so it’s hard to meet someone who speaks authentic speech of that region. Now in Sofia it’s more likely to hear “хлеб” and “ходиме” instead of the right forms “хляб” and “ходим”.


Well, as you pointed out - there is a lot of time from 1878 to 2010, during which each generation undergoes school education, and they teach you to speak correct Bulgarian - "correct" being the teachers' expression for "official". I am strongly in favour for preservation of the dialects, but I personally haven't heard any in the time, when there were only native citizens in the capital. So, I might be wrong, but I am speaking from experience.

And I oppose against calling the "official Bulgarian" pure. There is not impure. Every dialect of our language is pure and historically extremely valuable. :)
Native: Image
Advanced by birth: Image
Fluent: Image Image
Passionate & learning: Image Image

User avatar
gothwolf
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2409
Joined: 2006-04-15, 6:33
Real Name: Християн Бонев
Gender: male
Location: София / Ямбол
Country: BG Bulgaria (България)
Contact:

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby gothwolf » 2011-01-15, 20:57

So, only the teachers in Sofia had taught the children in standard Bulgarian? You mean, In Pleven or in Varna they still had used their dialects in school and that's why nowadays people of Sofia speak the most correct form of Bulgarian? I don't get it.

But you're right. I'm also FOR the dialect diversity.

User avatar
Svet
Posts: 64
Joined: 2011-01-13, 5:29
Gender: female

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby Svet » 2011-01-16, 3:29

gothwolf wrote:So, only the teachers in Sofia had taught the children in standard Bulgarian? You mean, In Pleven or in Varna they still had used their dialects in school and that's why nowadays people of Sofia speak the most correct form of Bulgarian? I don't get it.

But you're right. I'm also FOR the dialect diversity.


I don't think that the official Bulgarian is the "most correct" one. In fact, old Bulgarian and Slavonic are much more close to the Eastern dialects than it is to what we speak today officially. Whether teachers in Pleven or Varna use dialects in school I cannot say - maybe some do and some don't, but the fact is, most people do speak a dialect. I have a friend from Shumen for example, and she speaks perfect official Bulgarian, although there is a distinctive local dialect in that city. But then I have another from Silistra, who speaks such a heavy dialect - I can say I understand Macedonian better than the thing he's speaking.
To me it is simply a pleasure to listen to all of those different ways of speaking and try to guess where the person must come from. I must also say, everybody should be proud of their local dialect - this is how English or German people are, this is definitely how we should be as well.
Native: Image
Advanced by birth: Image
Fluent: Image Image
Passionate & learning: Image Image

User avatar
gothwolf
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2409
Joined: 2006-04-15, 6:33
Real Name: Християн Бонев
Gender: male
Location: София / Ямбол
Country: BG Bulgaria (България)
Contact:

Re: Bulgaria and Macedonia

Postby gothwolf » 2011-01-16, 12:41

Anyway! On is for sure - everything depends on the social environment, the education of the speaker and the interlocutors.


Return to “Bulgarian (Български)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron