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Български - Psi-Lord - UniLang

Български - Psi-Lord

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Български - Psi-Lord

Postby Psi-Lord » 2008-11-24, 22:46

Well, it was probably time I got to Bulgarian. :) I wanted to study it years ago, when I first made friends with avataar over the UniLang chat, but I can say I wasn’t ready for it, even if good materials were available back then (and they weren’t, at least for me). After studying some basics of Russian now and again, read a bit about Polish grammar, and studied Serbian as seriously as to rocket it all the way up to being my favourite Slavic language, I was sitting here last week and thought, ‘Why not give Bulgarian a try, just for kicks?’ Well, it’s been a lot of fun so far.

I’ve still got basically nothing to depart from – it’s all about basic materials and online dictionaries scattered all over the Web –, and I’m also (much to my surprise) drawing heavily from Russian and Serbian, plus probably overloading Æren with my daily ton of questions. :oops: Yet, I guess I’m slowly absorbing some bits really well (and, considering avataar scared me to death talking about the inferential/renarrative/reported mood years ago, I was thrilled as a child this weekend when I first got to use it on my own in a simple paragraph Æren checked for me).

So, I decided to create myself a thread on Bulgarian. This way I can ask my questions and ask for corrections without having to throw it all on poor Æren’s shoulders. :whistle: Желай ми късмет! :)

And just to make this more study-oriented, a basic question the answer to which will probably not be very basic. Regarding movement and locative verbs in Bulgarian, are there general guidelines for which prepositions to use? In Russian and Serbian materials, one can often find charts dividing such prepositions into e.g. in(side) inanimates, on/above inanimates, in(side) animates etc., but I haven’t found anything like that for Bulgarian. Take, for instance, the following sentences taken from the volume 1 of the FSI course:

  • Отивам до катедралата.
  • Искате ли да отидете в хотела?
  • Децата отиват на училище всяка сутрин.
  • Ще потеглим за Варна.
  • В пет часа ще бъда в университета.
  • Те се хранят на ресторант.

Any particular, special reasons why such similar sentences take different prepositions?
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Re: Български - Psi-Lord

Postby gothwolf » 2008-12-04, 21:46

Heh, such a great idea to take up with Bulgarian, Psi-Lord

Psi-Lord wrote:Пожелай ми късмет!


Hm... be careful with the verb aspect :roll:

Psi-Lord wrote:Any particular, special reasons why such similar sentences take different prepositions?


Probably, there are some rules but I don't know them :whistle:

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Re: Български - Psi-Lord

Postby Psi-Lord » 2008-12-06, 0:18

gothwolf wrote:Hm... be careful with the verb aspect :roll:

Now that is a difficult thing to do! :lol: Here, particularly speaking, I got mixed up because of expressions such as желая ви успех, желая ви всичко най-хубаво etc., and threw the verb into imperative instead of searching for a perfective equivalent. Maybe this gets people to wish me luck every time I post instead. :silly: J/K

gothwolf wrote:
Psi-Lord wrote:Any particular, special reasons why such similar sentences take different prepositions?

Probably, there are some rules but I don't know them :whistle:

No worries – I’ve had quite a few discussions on the topic since I posted that first message of mine here, and paruha and Æren have made more sense of them all for me. :) I’m sure I’ll still get them wrong many, many times, but I’m more aware, so to speak, of what I must search for when using them.
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Re: Български - Psi-Lord

Postby gothwolf » 2008-12-08, 14:44

Well, that's right - when we have an imperative form of a verb we usually use its perfect aspect. (I think so) :roll:

e.g. донеса (to bring, perfect) - донасям (to bring, imperfect)

It's more naturally to say "донеси" (perfect) instead of "донасяй" (imperfect) because the second form means: "bring (it) many times"

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Re: Български - Psi-Lord

Postby bibienne » 2008-12-29, 11:40

Psi-Lord wrote:
  • Отивам до катедралата.
  • Искате ли да отидете в хотела?
  • Децата отиват на училище всяка сутрин.
  • Ще потеглим за Варна.
  • В пет часа ще бъда в университета.
  • Те се хранят на ресторант.

Any particular, special reasons why such similar sentences take different prepositions?


Well, things are even more complicated with prepositions. Each of these sentences could be used with other prepositions too, depending on what part of the whole action is central for your utterance. For example:

1. "Oтивам" + "до" is mostly used when you say that you will go "to" some familiar place (and it always implies that you are coming back too): отивам до магазина, до църквата, до пощата (да пратя едно писмо). The emphasis is therefore on the process of going. If the central action develops "in" the place itself, then you should use "в" instead: отивам в магазина (и продавачката ми казва, че ...), i.e. the action of "staying" "being" somewhere is central here. In the same way you can choose between "в" хотела and "до" хотела in the second sentence.

2. "Потеглям" has the meaning of 'depart', therefore the direction is central and you use "за" (for, towards). Arriving at the endpoint is again expressed with "в": Пристигаме във Варна/в Бургас. In the same way you can say Потеглям за университета but Ще бъда/ще пристигна в университета в 5 часа.

3. Отивам/ходя на училище и отивам/ходя/храня се на ресторант go with the preposition "на" because they describe a regularly repeated action. Children going to school means that they are scholchildren and going to lessons. If the going "into" or "to" the building itself is meant, you use в училището/в ресторанта or до училището/до ресторанта, according to the first rule. Notice that in the first case you dont use a definite article because such expressions are collocational. No particular school or restaurant is meant but the tradition of going to one.

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Re: Български - Psi-Lord

Postby duko » 2008-12-30, 9:11

That was a nice explanation, I'm definitely going to pay more attention to which prepositions I use from now on. Welcome to Unilang!
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Re: Български - Psi-Lord

Postby paruha » 2008-12-30, 9:25

Yeah, the explanation sounds nice. :)
bibienne wrote:3. Отивам/ходя на училище и отивам/ходя/храня се на ресторант go with the preposition "на" because they describe a regularly repeated action. Children going to school means that they are scholchildren and going to lessons. If the going "into" or "to" the building itself is meant, you use в училището/в ресторанта or до училището/до ресторанта, according to the first rule. Notice that in the first case you dont use a definite article because such expressions are collocational. No particular school or restaurant is meant but the tradition of going to one.

But you don't necessarily mean repeated action. Отивам на ресторант: you can go just once. So I think the reason might be different.
Защо да харчим пари, които нямаме, за да купим неща, които не са ни нужни, така че да впечатлим хора, които не харесваме?

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Re: Български - Psi-Lord

Postby bibienne » 2008-12-30, 15:38

paruha wrote:Yeah, the explanation sounds nice. :)
But you don't necessarily mean repeated action. Отивам на ресторант: you can go just once. So I think the reason might be different.


You are right. Didn't think of that. :) Well, the reason, in my opinion is still that "на" puts a focus on the action that takes place on the mentioned location and "в/до" focus on the location itself. Whether the action is repeated or not depends on the verb semantics and the verb aspect. "Ходя" designates repeated action and "отивам" is the single-action form (in this context).

Does it sound better now?

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Re: Български - Psi-Lord

Postby bibienne » 2008-12-30, 15:43

Thanks, duko!
I am so happy that I found this "nest of linguists". :wink:

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Re: Български - Psi-Lord

Postby paruha » 2008-12-30, 18:25

Засега изглежда вярно и не се сещам за контрапример. :y:
Защо да харчим пари, които нямаме, за да купим неща, които не са ни нужни, така че да впечатлим хора, които не харесваме?

I don't even remember what standard deviation is.
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Re: Български - Psi-Lord

Postby ificouldfly » 2009-04-10, 10:29

Убихте ме с тези предлози, направо и аз ще ги науча :shock: Или поне кой, къде и защо. Че сега си ги слагам както ми е удобно, въпреки че съм си българка :lol:
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Re: Български - Psi-Lord

Postby Psi-Lord » 2009-06-09, 21:16

Can I say Под прозорците на къщата има пейка?
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Re: Български - Psi-Lord

Postby Arcane » 2009-06-09, 22:49

Да, точно така е правилно: )

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Re: Български - Psi-Lord

Postby Psi-Lord » 2009-06-10, 16:26

Благодаря! :)

It was a fill in exercise, and the key only had до instead of под, which is what I’d used, so I wasn’t sure whether they’d only not included it, or whether it was wrong.
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Re: Български - Psi-Lord

Postby Arcane » 2009-06-13, 20:20

Well, I don't think there's a mistake in the exercise as до is also correct. It's simply different in meaning. Personally, I'd always say the bench is under the window and not next to it but it depends on the context.

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Re: Български - Psi-Lord

Postby Psi-Lord » 2009-06-13, 20:24

Arcane wrote:Well, I don't think there's a mistake in the exercise as до is also correct.

Ah, sure. When I said I didn’t know whether it was wrong, I meant my answer, not that in the book. :) The key often has a few different alternatives, so, when this particular exercise gave none, I assumed my choice might not be correct for some reason.
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Re: Български - Psi-Lord

Postby Psi-Lord » 2012-06-22, 19:18

I’ve been trying to translate lots of texts into Bulgarian in the Broken Translation Game² site, but that becomes a bit pointless unless I get corrections, too. Although Æren’s been keeping an eye on them for me, I just had to include them in here as well.

I find it pointless to post the original texts, though, because chances are the game’ll have proceeded long enough for the text to change, and the text I’m actually translating from may have mistakes of its own (plus not necessarily being in English anyway), so you guys will be left without any sort of context. That may come in handy, though, since mistakes may get enhanced, hehe.

For starters, the shortest of them all so far:

Psi-Lord wrote:Обичам сроковете. Обичам придружаващите сигнали в поведението им.


And another one, still hot, that probably made gothwolf laugh his head off:

Psi-Lord wrote:Насърчително е да чува, че разкриването на фактите в Мрежата, което е налично открито в http://www.inventorofemail.com, помага публиката да потвърди, че един четиринадесетгодишен момък изобрети Е-пощата през 1978 година, когато работеше в Нюмарк в Ню Джърси. Това, което е още плачевно, е детинският гняв на хората отвътре индустрията, която мисли сега, че, ако обърква Е-пощенския случай, може да насочва вниманието от фактите.


P.S.: I cannot bring myself to believe it’s been 3 years since I last posted anything around here! :shock:
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Re: Български - Psi-Lord

Postby language learner » 2012-06-23, 6:58

Обичам сроковете. Обичам придружаващите сигнали в поведението им.
Correct, but the second sentence is a bit nonsense.

Насърчително е да се чуе, че разкриването на фактите в Мрежата, което е (налично) открито в http://www.inventorofemail.com, помага публиката да потвърди, че един четиринадесетгодишен мъж изобрети Е-пощата през 1978 година, когато е работил в Нюмарк в Ню Джърси. Това, което е още тъжно, е детинският гняв на хората във индустрията, които си мислят сега, че, ако объркат Е-пощенския случай, може да насочва вниманието от фактите.

by the end it becomes too nonsense to guess what the originall meaning was. But this is understandable because of the game itself

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Re: Български - Psi-Lord

Postby Psi-Lord » 2012-06-25, 18:55

Thanks! :) It’s funny how some of the mistakes I make are so silly. :oops:

This one probably got gothwolf rolling on the floor laughing, since he was the one translating it into English :oops: :

Psi-Lord wrote:Нищо не зависи от мен.

Помня колко красива беше,
един мост над дълбоки води,
като една фина крива
бялата луна.

И разбирай, че се утешавам с това.

Нищо над мен.

Оня ден
нивата, която беше около мен,
усети рало, където облаците са летели малко по-ниско,
и това ме е безпокоило.

Не, нищо над мен.

Би било достатъчно, ако, през някоя зима,
синът на някой друг,
който трепереше от студ,
бих скочел от един вътрешен двор, който ще е бил покрит от сняг,
и ти ме би прегърнал нежно.

By the way – Æren, if you’re reading this, this text was what prompted me to have doubts about relative clauses versus the present active participle you so nicely reminded me of. :)
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Re: Български - Psi-Lord

Postby Æren » 2012-06-27, 20:32

Psi-Lord wrote:Насърчително е да се чува, че разкриването на фактите в Мрежата, което е налично откритов http://www.inventorofemail.com, помага [на] публиката да потвърди, че един четиринадесетгодишен момък изобрети/л* Е-пощата през 1978 година, когато работеше/ работел* в Нюмарк в Ню Джърси. Това, което е още плачевно, е детинският гняв на хората отвътре/ от индустрията, която мисли които мислят сега, че, ако обърква Е-пощенския случай, може да насочва вниманието от фактите.



* Sometimes it's better to use the renarrative to express facts you've not witnessed yourself.

As for the orange part, it's hard to take the initial meaning in order to fix the phrase.
:<3:  (pt )  (es-ES )  (fr )
:D  (uk )  (no)  (lt)  (de-AT)
:?  (fa )  (tl)  (tr )  (cs)  (ja)  (he )
:para:  (ir )  (hu )


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