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The Random Phonology Thread - Page 14 - UniLang

The Random Phonology Thread

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baradsonoron
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby baradsonoron » 2013-07-02, 16:49

Dentals vs. alveolars...

þðŧđň vs. sztdn.
Bárád-dur, unákufênot
Bárád-dur, ais baraské mé paná
Bárád-dur, tukufartasc
Ais unápoton cuéfainaktat unágoladébupotone

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Kshaard
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Kshaard » 2013-07-02, 19:35

How would you distinguish the capital forms of <đ> and <ð> or would you just not use capitals?
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baradsonoron
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby baradsonoron » 2013-07-02, 21:11

When I handwrite it, capital ð (Ð) has the bar near the bottom and capital đ (Đ) has the bar near the top. Or, I might just use Ď for capital ð.
Bárád-dur, unákufênot
Bárád-dur, ais baraské mé paná
Bárád-dur, tukufartasc
Ais unápoton cuéfainaktat unágoladébupotone

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Irkan
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Irkan » 2013-09-24, 15:10

I started thinking of this phonology a couple of days ago and I want to make it into a conlang. It's not supposed to be a language spoken on Earth and that's why I went for the missing [p], to make it sound "alien-ish". But, apart from that, what do you think of it?

Consonants
LabialsDentalsAlveolarsAlveolopalatalsVelarsGlottals
Stopstk
Fricativesvðsɣh~ɦ
Affricatest͡st͡ɕ
Nasalsmnȵ
Approximantsl, ɾ


Vowels
iu
a
*[i, u, e̞, o̞] become [ɪ, ʊ̜, ɛ, ɔ] in unstressed positions
**[i] and [e̞] palatalize the consonants before them

Phonotactics
(s)C(r)V(C)
- Any consonant may appear at the beginning of a syllable
- [s] can appear at the end of a syllable or at the beginning of the word only before stops
- [ɾ], [l] and [n] can appear at the end of the syllable before stops and nasals
- [ɾ] can appear at the end of a syllable before [l] as well
- [ɾ] can also appear as a liquid after [t, k, v, ð, ɣ]
- [n] and [s] cannot appear at the end of a word with its stress in the last syllable (one-syllable words don't follow this rule)
- [n] and [t͡s] never appear before [i] and [e̞]. Instead, [ȵ] and [t͡ɕ] do.
- Any consonant other than [s, n, ɾ, l] cannot appear in coda position
- There must always be a consonant before a vowel. There's no chance a word can start with a vowel or that two vowels appear in contact
- There's vowel harmony exclusive to two-syllable words. Only these combinations are allowed: i-e, e-a, a-o, o-u

Please, tell me what you think so that it souns the best it can :)

Will Smith
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Will Smith » 2013-11-10, 21:40

Inspired by Mongolian and Kazakh, I've had this bizarre inventory kicking around in my head for a long while:


ɨ ʉ ɨ̘ ʉ̘
ə ɵ ə̘ ɵ̘
a a̘

amateur
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby amateur » 2014-05-08, 1:36

I actually shared this one on its own thread, but probably because I only have the phonology and alphabet and not much else, I didn't get many responses. If I can make it, this will be the phonology of my very first conlang, and I'd appreciate any thoughts.

Consonants:





LabialDentalAlveolarAlveolopalatalPalatalVelarUvularGlottal
Nasalmn
Stopp bkq ɢ
Affricatet͡θ d͡ðt͡s d͡z(t͡ɕ) (d͡ʑ)
Fricativef vðs zɕ ʑxh
Approximantjw
Lateralʎ


Vowels: /ʌ/, /ɛ/, /i/, /ɪ/, /o/, /ɒ/, /u/, /ʊː/, /ɛʌ/, (/a/)
Last edited by amateur on 2014-08-07, 2:46, edited 2 times in total.

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mōdgethanc
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-05-08, 4:03

amateur wrote:I actually shared this one on its own thread, but probably because I only have the phonology and alphabet and not much else, I didn't get many responses. If I can make it, this will be the phonology of my very first conlang, and I'd appreciate any thoughts.
Kind of bizarre, frankly. Here are some problems I see:

- you have no dental or alveolar stops at all, which are found in almost every language
- you have /b/ and /ɢ/, but no /ɡ/; /ɢ/ is much rarer than /ɡ/
- you have no /r/ or /l/, yet you have /ʎ/ as the only lateral (most languages have at least one alveolar liquid)
- your only other palatal consonant is /j/, but no /ɲ/, which is fairly common
- you have dental affricates, which are extremely rare, contrasting with a voiced dental fricative, but no voiceless one
- you have alveopalatal affricates in parentheses, suggesting they are marginal, without explaining why, or where they occur
- you list voiced consonants before their voiceless counterparts when it should be the other way around (this is a technical detail though)

Otherwise your consonants seem fine, but your vowel system is on a whole other level of fuckery
- some vowels, like /ʌ/, /ɪ/, and /ɒ/, appear in English but are otherwise quite rare
- only one vowel (/ʊ/) is long, for no reason at all, while the rest are short
- you have only one diphthong, /ɛʌ/, which is pretty bizarre, since closing diphthongs like /ai/ and /au/ are far more common
- it makes no sense to have mid vowels that are at different heights, rather than the same height (whether that's close-mid or open-mid doesn't matter)
- you have /ɒ/, which is rare, but/a/ is in parentheses for some reason, even though it's probably the single most common vowel there is

Now, just because your phonemic inventory is weird and unnatural isn't a bad thing. Klingon, for example, is meant to sound bizarre and alien-like on purpose. But if you're going for a naturalistic approach, I would make the following changes:

- add /t/, /d/ and /ɡ/, and possibly remove /ɢ/; think about adding /ʔ/
- remove dental affricates and make them fricatives
- either add /ɲ/ or remove /ʎ/; think about adding /ŋ/
- add /l/, and probably /r/ or /ɾ/ as well
- make alveopalatal affricates into full phonemes
- throw out your vowel system and start over; make sure the vowels are spread evenly around the mouth, avoid being too much like English and either have a length contrast for all vowels or none at all; make sure you have an /a/-like vowel of some kind (not rounded)

Hope this helps.

amateur
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby amateur » 2014-05-08, 14:27

Thanks for your review.

Actually I wanted this phonology to have the many uncommon phonemes, so some of the points you made are intentional. First, the consonants:

- The dental affricates are actually phonetic realizations of /t/ and /d/
- Not having /g/ is intentional, and /k/ will be much rarer than /q/
- I can consider adding /ɲ/, but this will require me to remove /n/
- /ð/ is considered a rhotic, and has the dental approximant as a common allophone
- The phonemes in parantheses only occur in loanwords and proper names

Vowels:
- Since I wanted to have many marginal phonemes the rare vowels are intentional
- /ʊ/ is long in order to make the distinction between it and /u/, a pretty close sound, clearer. Though, now that I think of it, I should probably make /ɪ/ long for the same reason as well
- To this point you should have figured out that I'm not trying too hard to make the language sound natural, so /ɛʌ/ is intentional too
- /o/ is close-mid to keep it away from /ɒ/; and since I have no other low front vowels doing the same is unnecessary with /ɛ/
- My a-type vowel (i.e. the vowel represented by <a> in the orthography) is /ʌ/

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mōdgethanc
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-05-09, 14:23

amateur wrote:Thanks for your review.

Actually I wanted this phonology to have the many uncommon phonemes, so some of the points you made are intentional.
Alright, if that's what you want. But you do understand that no human language would ever have an inventory like this. It violates too many near-universal rules.
The dental affricates are actually phonetic realizations of /t/ and /d/
Everywhere? Then why not just write them as affricates if there's no [t] or [d] anywhere?
- I can consider adding /ɲ/, but this will require me to remove /n/
Why?
/ð/ is considered a rhotic
Why?

There are a lot of sounds that can work as rhotics, but I can't see how that one could possibly ever be one. It's too much unlike the others.

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linguoboy
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby linguoboy » 2014-05-09, 16:25

mōdgethanc wrote:There are a lot of sounds that can work as rhotics, but I can't see how that one could possibly ever be one. It's too much unlike the others.

And yet, this is attested for an actual human language: Osage.
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mōdgethanc
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-05-10, 1:55

linguoboy wrote:And yet, this is attested for an actual human language: Osage.
And what makes it a rhotic, rather than a rhotic that developed into another sound?

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linguoboy
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby linguoboy » 2014-05-10, 18:08

mōdgethanc wrote:
linguoboy wrote:And yet, this is attested for an actual human language: Osage.
And what makes it a rhotic, rather than a rhotic that developed into another sound?

It patterns like one. It's the only consonant in the language to occur as a second element in consonant clusters. In addition, [ɾ] is one of its conditional allophones.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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mōdgethanc
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-05-10, 22:12

linguoboy wrote:It patterns like one. It's the only consonant in the language to occur as a second element in consonant clusters. In addition, [ɾ] is one of its conditional allophones.
And why, without these criteria, should it be considered one for this guy's purposes?

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linguoboy
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby linguoboy » 2014-05-10, 22:56

mōdgethanc wrote:
linguoboy wrote:It patterns like one. It's the only consonant in the language to occur as a second element in consonant clusters. In addition, [ɾ] is one of its conditional allophones.
And why, without these criteria, should it be considered one for this guy's purposes?

We don't know enough about the phonology of this language to say whether these criteria are applicable or not. (As it usually the case here, amateur hasn't given us a "phonology" as such, only a list of phonemes.)
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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JuxtapositionQMan
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-05-13, 13:46

For my new Germanic Conlang:
Consonants:
LabialLabiodent.DentalAlveolarPostalv.PalatalVelarUvularGlottal
Nasalmnɲŋ
Stopp btdc ɟk gq ɢ(ʔ)
Affricatepf bvtθ dðts dztʃ dʒcç ɟʝkx gɣ
Fricativef vθðs zʃ ʒç ʝx ɣh
Approximantɥ wj
Tapɾ
Laterallʎ


Vowels: /ʌ~ɐ/, /a~ɑ/, /æ/, /e~ɛ/, /i~ɪ/, /o~ɔ/, /ə/, /u~ʉ/, /ɞ~ɵ/, /ø~œ/, /ʏ~y/
Any thoughts?
Last edited by JuxtapositionQMan on 2014-05-14, 0:18, edited 1 time in total.
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want to learn:  (fo) (be) (ko) (he) (sw) (hi) (tr) (nl) (cy) (hu)

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Levike
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Levike » 2014-05-13, 13:54

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:For my new Germanic Conlang: Any thoughts?
Was ist das? :blow:
Hungarian (hu) Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára. _______German (de) Wo ein Wille ist, da ist auch ein Weg.
English (en) Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. __Spanish (es) No hay ceguera peor que no querer mirar.
Romanian (ro) Nu întinde arcul până nu este bine aşezată săgeata.

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linguoboy
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby linguoboy » 2014-05-13, 14:21

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:Vowels: /ʌ~ɐ/, /a~ɑ/, /æ/, /e~ɛ/, /i~ɪ/, /o~ɔ/, /ə/, /u~ʉ/, /ɞ~ɵ/, /ø~œ/, /ʏ~y/

This notation doesn't make sense. Pick one symbol to represent the phoneme, then explain its realisations. Looking at this, I can't tell whether you mean to suggest that every vowel but /æ/ has two main allophones in free variation or if the realisations are in any way conditioned (e.g. close open syllables or under primary stress or whatever).

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:Any thoughts?

That's a shitpile of fricatives and affricates.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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JuxtapositionQMan
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-05-14, 0:16

linguoboy wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:Vowels: /ʌ~ɐ/, /a~ɑ/, /æ/, /e~ɛ/, /i~ɪ/, /o~ɔ/, /ə/, /u~ʉ/, /ɞ~ɵ/, /ø~œ/, /ʏ~y/

This notation doesn't make sense. Pick one symbol to represent the phoneme, then explain its realisations. Looking at this, I can't tell whether you mean to suggest that every vowel but /æ/ has two main allophones in free variation or if the realisations are in any way conditioned (e.g. close open syllables or under primary stress or whatever).
Every vowel has a section of the vowel chart that applies to it. If it's in that general, it's a viable pronunciation. I'm working on a visual thingy with photoshop to better explain. The reason I didn't do anything with /æ/ or /ə/ is that I didn't know how to notate "around" or "thereabouts".

linguoboy wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:Any thoughts?

That's a shitpile of fricatives and affricates.
Thank you for being so constructive with that. To elaborate, the affricates are just possible ones, and it doesn't even cover all of the ones possible.
Well, that was a thing.
speak:  (en) (eo)
learning:  (fr) (de) (ru) (pt) (es) (ro) (art-jbo)
hiatus:  (fi) (it) (la) (wa) (sv) (eu) (zh.Hans) (is)
want to learn:  (fo) (be) (ko) (he) (sw) (hi) (tr) (nl) (cy) (hu)

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linguoboy
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby linguoboy » 2014-05-14, 0:56

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:Every vowel has a section of the vowel chart that applies to it. If it's in that general, it's a viable pronunciation.

That's always the case. Vowel symbols aren't precise points; they're cover symbols for a more or less limited range of possible realisations.

The standard procedure in these situations is to chose the most central member of the field of likely realisations as the basic symbol and then outline the boundaries. For instance, using the symbols for close vowels and then saying in a note "may also be pronounced lax" would simplify your presentation enormously. (If you're feeling more ambitious, you can circle the fields on a vowel chart as in the examples on this page.)

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:
That's a shitpile of fricatives and affricates.
Thank you for being so constructive with that.

You said, "Any thoughts?" You didn't say they had to be constructive. I'm just pointing out that you have a wider array of fricatives than are found in any attested Germanic language, and the same goes double wrt affricates.

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:To elaborate, the affricates are just possible ones, and it doesn't even cover all of the ones possible.

I'm sure you know what you mean by this, but I don't.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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JuxtapositionQMan
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-05-14, 1:39

linguoboy wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:Every vowel has a section of the vowel chart that applies to it. If it's in that general, it's a viable pronunciation.

That's always the case. Vowel symbols aren't precise points; they're cover symbols for a more or less limited range of possible realisations.

The standard procedure in these situations is to chose the most central member of the field of likely realisations as the basic symbol and then outline the boundaries. For instance, using the symbols for close vowels and then saying in a note "may also be pronounced lax" would simplify your presentation enormously. (If you're feeling more ambitious, you can circle the fields on a vowel chart as in the examples on this page.)
Aaaaaahh. I knew the whole thing of no fixed point, but that's helpful. Thanks! So it'd be:
/ʌ/, /ä/, /æ/, /e̞/, /i/, /o̞/, /ə/, /u̽/, /ɵ̞/, /ø̞/, /y/

linguoboy wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:
That's a shitpile of fricatives and affricates.
Thank you for being so constructive with that.

You said, "Any thoughts?" You didn't say they had to be constructive. I'm just pointing out that you have a wider array of fricatives than are found in any attested Germanic language, and the same goes double wrt affricates.
Thank you for being more constructive that time.

linguoboy wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:To elaborate, the affricates are just possible ones, and it doesn't even cover all of the ones possible.

I'm sure you know what you mean by this, but I don't.
I mean by this two things:
1)the affricates, though they appear, are not separately represented in the orthography (except ts)
2)there are others possible, such as /ks gz/, /kθ gð/, and /pʃ bʒ/
Well, that was a thing.
speak:  (en) (eo)
learning:  (fr) (de) (ru) (pt) (es) (ro) (art-jbo)
hiatus:  (fi) (it) (la) (wa) (sv) (eu) (zh.Hans) (is)
want to learn:  (fo) (be) (ko) (he) (sw) (hi) (tr) (nl) (cy) (hu)


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